No Tresspassing

[Mick]

The Constitutional protections we enjoy are subject to many limitations, and are not absolute.  The Government may infringe on freedom when there is a compelling state interest in doing so, even in the people's republic of berkeley.  Only a very small minority are "scared".  I hope, in time, you will feel more at ease.

While I respect your views Jade, and certainly your right to express them, I share Robhorn's concerns. I guess what frightens me most is the fact that I don't necessarily have much faith in the current administration nor its ability to define what is a state of "compelling state interest". From what I have seen in the past two plus years, this administration has done more to serve its own interests than ours. I usually steer clear of the political discussions, so I guess I shouldn't say more at this point. But, what I have expressed is my reasoned view of things. Again, I appreciate the fact that we, as Americans, can and do share different views. Both Jefferson and Madison wrote extensively about this right and duty. It is the duty of the opposition to express its views openly and forcefully.

 

Now, with that said, I would add that the great thing about Candle is that those of us who share differing political views can still pursue a common purpose on a united front. Whatever our views may be on the current visa situation, there is one thing I think we can all agree on. It must be changed for the better.

[Guest jade_yan]

There is no need to trust the administration. trust the courts. the courts are the only protection we ever had anyway. that has not changed. the Constitution is superior to the PA. Paranoia and minority political views notwithstanding.

Thank you for your response.

[chinadave2001]

those who express that opinion misunderstand the patriot act, i believe. or simply buy all the misguided rhetoric about it. However, perhaps we leave politics for another board.

 

These political issues are very much part of this forum. These ARE the issues we are all facing having fallen love and/or having married a foreigner. When I read just this morning that it took 21 months for one member of Candle to get his wife here, I'm utterly appalled. TWENTY-ONE months!! This is a direct result of misguided actions being taken that limit our own freedoms as a knee-jerk reaction to 9-11. When I think about the filthy hospitals I've seen so far in China and realize that this is where my first child is going to be born, due to the fact that our case is trapped in this invisible and interminable "security check", I am livid.

 

I don't believe I misunderstand the Patriot Act one bit. I might just as easy suggest that you can't see the forest for the trees. Our constitution guarantees us a government of checks and balances, it provides us with a voice and recourse for grievances. The Patriot Act is in direct contridition to this, all in the name of "security." I don't believe the rhetoric about it is at all misguided. There is a constitutional crisis happening that has only begun to be discussed.

 

I know this is a volatile issue which can easily degrade into a lot of noise on a forum like this but, you know, I'm soooo tired of being quiet about it. This country is headed in a very dangerous direction and it scares the living hell out of me.

 

These ARE the core issues that are seriously and directly impacting the lives of every person reading this forum. They should be discussed in excruciating detail.

Hi Rob,

My two cents: I agree with many of your points and can certainly understand your anger and fear given your circumstances. On the other hand, while the constitution certainly delineates certain rights to American citizens, those rights are subordinate to national security and defense. There is no constitutional crisis in the making as far as I can see. When the founding fathers were first forming our government, the main purpose of said government was a collective defense. All others considerations were secondary. The real problem as I see it is not there there is a looming constitutional crisis, but rather than many do not trust the people who are currently empowered to decide what constitutes a matter of "national security." Need to wait until next fall to fix that!

I also do not see that the system of checks and balances has in any way failed here.

As for this individual measure, how can you fault it? Clearly its a loohole that could allow a terrorist to enter the USA. No, of course it won't stop all threats but it does close one more door.

As for the impact of the Patriot Act on our situation, I believe that security checks are a good idea. What is terrible about it is the implementation of the measure, which as you know created huge backlogs and unjust delays.

As Mick has said, it is our mission to work to improve that process to make it more reasonable, fair, just and fast!

Just my thoughts....

Dave

[Guest R2D2]

We had all kinds of security as a British colony with a British fort in almost every commonwealth. What the forefathers wanted was freedom so they chose freedom over security. Security can be kept by staying with your mother. However, at some point, most choose freedom.

[Guest jade_yan]

My goodness, all this debate and handwringing because the FBI can ask if anyone has checked out a book on how to make a bomb. Tsk...tsk. You'd think the Bill of Rights has been cast aside. Bad news for the conspiracy minded: the 4th, 5th and 6th amendments are safe and sound.

[Guest R2D2]

Amen, Don. I am glad that you finally spoke up and I am glad that you stood up and wrote a letter for someone else. God Bless you, my friend.

[TimD]

I've gotta put in my 2 RMB

 

1) Though I support what the PA is suppose to do I feel that it is not the best solution to address homeland security issues. I feel that it was drafted during a very emotional time for this country and certain law makers had more of their personal agendas in mind when drafting this law than the security of this country.

 

2) Yes, politics relating to visa delays and other such issues should be discussed on this board. If it we not for politics there would be no delays.

 

3) The current administration is only paritially to blame for the issues we discuss here. I think a lot of the blame falls on our fellow citizens that rather watch the Simpsons than watch the evening news. It's sad to think that a majority of the people in our country are oblivous to what goes on in D.C.

 

We live in a free country where we can vote and change our government in a peaceful manner. But how many of our fellow country men and women actually go to the polls and vote? Yea, they'll sit around the bar and bitch because of this law or that law, but do they actually go our and vote?

 

My frustration lay on both sides of the coin. On one hand I am soooo frustrated at the current administration, but on the other hand I am also equally as frustrated when I hear friends of mine say things like "PA, what's that, a new video game, movie...wuz up?!"....

 

We can write letter after letter to our government, but we will only see progress by educating those that do not participate in our governement to do so.

 

Just my opinions...Xie xie,

-Tim

[beishan4]

Aloha from Hawaii,

My 2 RMB says we must get involved in politics that have an effect on this group.

The delays that have an effect on our loved ones is a common interest for all of

us. Our rights under the first amendment are protected by the second amendment.

We must use them and protect them for our own benefit.

Myles

[Guest jade_yan]

for those who may be curious, second amendment refers to a well regulated militia being essential to a free state, and guarantees to the people the right to keep and bear arms. whether this applies to individuals owning weapons or to the maintenance of armed forces is subject to vigorous debate.

[youmolide]

Actually the complete wording is :

 

'"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

The meaning can be twisted and turned by ANY of the worms who seek positions of power in government at any level, but the wording remains clear to all with half a brain: The PEOPLE have the right to keep and bear arms AND that right SHALL NOT be infringed by the government.

 

You can twist and squirm and 1984 your way through anything (Clinton and Nixon come to mind ... and of course now, Bush Jr.), but the fact remains that this country was founded on a number of principles that are absolutely clear.

 

It's the politicians and their quislings who twist and turn the meaning of clear writing in an attempt to sell the rest of us down the river, and I detest those who support them (nothing personal, Jade). They eat away at our freedoms one by one using pieces of garbage like the 'Patriot Act I & II) until we have nothing left.

 

The reason I returned from China is I believed that I saw the handwriting on the wall. About 5 years ago, my father gave me a copy of the most important book I have ever read, called the Fourth Turning (http:www.fourthturning.com) and in this book the authors PREDICTED an event almost identical to 911, four years before the fact. They also clearly outlined what the response of the govt and the citizenry would have to the event and in broad brush strokes, how the next 15 or 20 years would play out in this country. I strongly recommend this book. It has helped me immensely in trying to understand and adopt to the changes that have occurred and the others that will be coming.

 

 

I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change.

Dan Quayle

[youmolide]

And ... after having read and thought more about the article that started this thread, I would have to CHANGE MY MIND and say that it is the right decision ... although about 2 years too late. Seems like the government does the ILLOGICAL things first (like making all those potential terrorist wives and fiancee's jumph through hoops) and the LOGICAL things last.

 

The very FIRST thing they should have done was to analyze in DETAIL

[youmolide]

whoops ... hit the wrong button

 

... exactly why 911 occurred. Considering that most of the hijackers were Saudia Arabian and that I have never heard of a terrorist of any kind entering on a K-1, or K-3 I am so happy (NOT) to see the increased scrutiny of our significant wives, girlfiends (boyfriends and husbands) , while the consulate in S.A. continues to hand out visas like candy bars, and the US government refuses to release ALL the information necessary to make sure the chance of another 911 occurring is remote. All they have done in my mind is INCREASE that possiblity with most of the stunts they have pulled in the last 2 years. But this suspension of 'fuzzy visas', is actually a good idea (late, though) and I was wrong.

 

[chinadave2001]

Actually the complete wording is :

 

'"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

The meaning can be twisted and turned by ANY of the worms who seek positions of power in government at any level, but the wording remains clear to all with half a brain: The PEOPLE have the right to keep and bear arms AND  that right SHALL NOT be infringed by the government.

 

You can twist and squirm and 1984 your way through anything (Clinton and Nixon come to mind ... and of course now, Bush Jr.), but the fact remains that this country was founded on a number of principles that are absolutely clear.

 

It's the politicians and their quislings who twist and turn the meaning of clear writing in an attempt to sell the rest of us down the river, and I detest those who support them (nothing personal, Jade). They eat away at our freedoms one by one using pieces of garbage like the 'Patriot Act I & II) until we have nothing left.

 

The reason I returned from China is I believed that I saw the handwriting on the wall. About 5 years ago, my father gave me a copy of the most important book I have ever read, called the Fourth Turning (http:www.fourthturning.com) and in this book the authors PREDICTED an event almost identical to 911, four years before the fact. They also clearly outlined what the response of the govt and the citizenry would have to the event and in broad brush strokes, how the next 15 or 20 years would play out in this country.  I strongly recommend this book.  It has helped me immensely in trying to understand and adopt to the changes that have occurred and the others that will be coming.

 

 

I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change.

Dan Quayle

I agree with you completely. All those PEOPLE serving in a WELL REGULATED MILITIA definately have the right to bear arms.

Another point: the Supreme Court of the United Sates has never interpreted this amendment to support your position my friend, so I guess they are half-brained as you say.

On a more practical level, now that there are some 200 million guns in the United States, we would never be able to get them back.

Dave

[Dave G.]

Ever wonder why guns are illegal in China? Not because of a possible gov overthrow. The answer boils down to two words. Mah Jong.

[robhon]

I'd like to say, I stopped posting here this week because of the personal tone of several of the posts in this and other threads. These are great topics to discuss. There are people here who have strong opinions and are willing to express them. That's what this country is all about.

 

BUT, I would like to request that people refrain from personal accusations in the process of stating your opinions. It degrades the discussion and undermines your own position. I greatly appreciate all of you who managed to state your opinions and not get defensive or personal about it.

 

My opinion still stands that the Patriot Act is a constitutional crisis in the making. I think it's only starting to percolate to the surface.

 

When all this started (Iraq) my ex-wife's father, who is currently an active diplomat and a very conservative man, said, and I quote, "Don't fool yourself that this is about security, this whole thing is about oil and power." At the time this Berkeley liberal (me) said, "Oh, give me a break!" Now, more than ever, I think he was right.

 

Back to the original topic, I don't feel safer specifically because of most of the Bush administration actions since 9-11. I believe our country is more isolated than ever from the world community. On the other side, I believe we have likely transformed hoards of those who merely disliked us before into new bands of confirmed terrorists.

 

Ultimately, in my opinion, there are no winners as we trudge so agressively down this path.