Pollution responsibilty...A shared problem...

[LeeFisher3]

I'm happy everyone has discovered they have rights to things in the US, but we need to stay on topic.

 

For those who missed it the topic is:

Replying to Pollution responsibilty...A shared problem...

 

Flag waving, US Bashing, China bashing, bra burning, streaking and other such things need to find the proper thread.

[tywy_99]

I'm happy everyone has discovered they have rights to things in the US, but we need to stay on topic.

 

For those who missed it the topic is:

Replying to Pollution responsibilty...A shared problem...

 

Flag waving, US Bashing, China bashing, bra burning, streaking and other such things need to find the proper thread.

You are a spectacle of just reason, Lee. Damn, I admire you! Keep up the good work!

[SinoTexas]

While I was in Southern California a few weeks ago, I had a chance to talk with a few folks about the environmental issues and project that I have been working on for the past few years. We will wrap the research up this December and the final report will be ready for the 2008 Summer Olympics.

 

My part of the project involved the heritage tourism side if the pre-planning for the Olympics but was part of a larger team that also included the environmental side of things. The project was funded by the Chinese government and they provided the direction which was to evaluate urban or rural areas for western tourism opportunities in connection with the Olympics. The project is being coordinated through several Chinese universities and the research done by Chinese researchers, students and environmental and historic preservation agencies. The environmental side of the project was to look at how "environmentally safe" (the Chines government words, not mine) it was for western visitors to be in China.

 

One of the major areas of focus was food and how Westerners would respond. Over the course of several years, tens of thousands of random samples of food were obtained. They came from vegetable markets, meat markets, various price ranged restaurants in urban and rural areas across China (I'm leaving out the methodology for samples as it is a long process to explain). The prepared foods in restaurants were ordered and then samples of vegetables, meats, fish, poultry, etc. were taken for analysis for poisons, toxins, heavy metals, chemicals, etc. Of the tens of thousands of random samples analyzed, not one, I'll repeat NOT ONE sample met the minimal standards as set by the US FDA (which was the bench mark for food analysis). Pretty scary stuff. In part, the report will ultimately say that in the amounts and for the short term, we see know harmful affects of the food to Western visitors. But that's only because they will probably eat few meals and only be in China for not more than three weeks on average. I'm sure the report will never see the light of day once it is turned over to the Chinese government or what has been reported will be taken out of context. Our findings and studies will all be handed over so that it cannot be leaked. And the next Chinese environmental issue? WATER...stay tuned.

 

Ya'll can ramble on about the Chinese environment and put your spin and be defensive, but it aint a good place to be. Yep, America has it's problems, but they ain't nuth'n like what is about to happen.

 

As aye,

 

Jim

[DMikeS4321]

While I was in Southern California a few weeks ago, I had a chance to talk with a few folks about the environmental issues and project that I have been working on for the past few years. We will wrap the research up this December and the final report will be ready for the 2008 Summer Olympics.

 

My part of the project involved the heritage tourism side if the pre-planning for the Olympics but was part of a larger team that also included the environmental side of things. The project was funded by the Chinese government and they provided the direction which was to evaluate urban or rural areas for western tourism opportunities in connection with the Olympics. The project is being coordinated through several Chinese universities and the research done by Chinese researchers, students and environmental and historic preservation agencies. The environmental side of the project was to look at how "environmentally safe" (the Chines government words, not mine) it was for western visitors to be in China.

 

One of the major areas of focus was food and how Westerners would respond. Over the course of several years, tens of thousands of random samples of food were obtained. They came from vegetable markets, meat markets, various price ranged restaurants in urban and rural areas across China (I'm leaving out the methodology for samples as it is a long process to explain). The prepared foods in restaurants were ordered and then samples of vegetables, meats, fish, poultry, etc. were taken for analysis for poisons, toxins, heavy metals, chemicals, etc. Of the tens of thousands of random samples analyzed, not one, I'll repeat NOT ONE sample met the minimal standards as set by the US FDA (which was the bench mark for food analysis). Pretty scary stuff. In part, the report will ultimately say that in the amounts and for the short term, we see know harmful affects of the food to Western visitors. But that's only because they will probably eat few meals and only be in China for not more than three weeks on average. I'm sure the report will never see the light of day once it is turned over to the Chinese government or what has been reported will be taken out of context. Our findings and studies will all be handed over so that it cannot be leaked. And the next Chinese environmental issue? WATER...stay tuned.

 

Ya'll can ramble on about the Chinese environment and put your spin and be defensive, but it aint a good place to be. Yep, America has it's problems, but they ain't nuth'n like what is about to happen.

 

As aye,

 

Jim

 

Jim, I don't doubt what you are saying, but how is it there are so many outwardly healthy looking people in China? Is there a higher incidence of cancer and/or other environmentally induced kinds of diseases? I'm sure there is more black lung from coal mining, but are there other categories of disease that are noticeably higher in China? If not in the public record, is the Chinese government hiding the evidence?

 

I'm not being a smart ass, I'm really curious.

 

Best Regards

[SirLancelot]

Of the tens of thousands of random samples analyzed, not one, I'll repeat NOT ONE sample met the minimal standards as set by the US FDA (which was the bench mark for food analysis). Pretty scary stuff. In part, the report will ultimately say that in the amounts and for the short term, we see know harmful affects of the food to Western visitors. But that's only because they will probably eat few meals and only be in China for not more than three weeks on average. I'm sure the report will never see the light of day once it is turned over to the Chinese government or what has been reported will be taken out of context. Our findings and studies will all be handed over so that it cannot be leaked. And the next Chinese environmental issue? WATER...stay tuned.

 

Ya'll can ramble on about the Chinese environment and put your spin and be defensive, but it aint a good place to be. Yep, America has it's problems, but they ain't nuth'n like what is about to happen.

 

As aye,

 

Jim

 

Some very disturbing findings indeed Jim. Yet, my wife retorts: So? Billions of Chinese eat this exact kind of food everyday and they don't all die or become sick, not even 1%. I suspect the vast majority of all our SOs will say the same.

 

I've lived in poor GuangXi province for 6 months myself and have eaten at the poorest little eateries for like 2-4 rmb meals. I didn't get food poisoning. I also lived in Shanghai for 1.7 years from 2004 - 2006 and I don't recall having food poisoning. What I do recall is having a "grossed out" perception and reaction to many of the places I ate at, but in reality they did not produce any negative physical reactions.

 

As for putting a defensive spin on China? Whose doing that? Everyone, including myself, fully concedes that China's environmental and pollution problems are atrocious, widespread, and drastically needs changing. No one disputes that.

 

From what I've seen, the defensive side is always charging in here to defend America. America is a democracy and that in itself will solve everything. America is great. God bless America. Those are the rhetorical "defensive spins" that I see in this thread.

 

For the record, I'll say it again, China's environmental problems are atrocious. They desperately need to change and improve their environmental record. But also understand that China opened up only 25+ years ago. America's had at least 100 years of being an advanced industrialized nation. If you expect China to be on par with the US in every way in 2007, that's delusional.

 

Given its overall economic prosperity for the short 25+ years that it's opened up to the West, I think it's done a remarkable job.

 

I'll criticize and place blame where and when appropriate but by god I'm going to assign credit where it's obviously due as well.

 

China has done an exceptional job of advancing the overall standard of living for the majority of Chinese, much better than Russia or India under "democracy".

[david_dawei]

In part, the report will ultimately say that in the amounts and for the short term, we see know harmful affects of the food to Western visitors.

you had me until this point...

 

So... if it's not done by american standards, it's harmful around the world?

 

That reminds me of the 'lead' issue in the items imported... I finally read that the lead is not harmful, just illegal

[Dennis143]

Of the tens of thousands of random samples analyzed, not one, I'll repeat NOT ONE sample met the minimal standards as set by the US FDA (which was the bench mark for food analysis). Pretty scary stuff. In part, the report will ultimately say that in the amounts and for the short term, we see know harmful affects of the food to Western visitors. But that's only because they will probably eat few meals and only be in China for not more than three weeks on average. I'm sure the report will never see the light of day once it is turned over to the Chinese government or what has been reported will be taken out of context. Our findings and studies will all be handed over so that it cannot be leaked. And the next Chinese environmental issue? WATER...stay tuned.

 

Ya'll can ramble on about the Chinese environment and put your spin and be defensive, but it aint a good place to be. Yep, America has it's problems, but they ain't nuth'n like what is about to happen.

 

As aye,

 

Jim

 

Some very disturbing findings indeed Jim. Yet, my wife retorts: So? Billions of Chinese eat this exact kind of food everyday and they don't all die or become sick, not even 1%. I suspect the vast majority of all our SOs will say the same.

 

I've lived in poor GuangXi province for 6 months myself and have eaten at the poorest little eateries for like 2-4 rmb meals. I didn't get food poisoning. I also lived in Shanghai for 1.7 years from 2004 - 2006 and I don't recall having food poisoning. What I do recall is having a "grossed out" perception and reaction to many of the places I ate at, but in reality they did not produce any negative physical reactions.

 

As for putting a defensive spin on China? Whose doing that? Everyone, including myself, fully concedes that China's environmental and pollution problems are atrocious, widespread, and drastically needs changing. No one disputes that.

 

From what I've seen, the defensive side is always charging in here to defend America. America is a democracy and that in itself will solve everything. America is great. God bless America. Those are the rhetorical "defensive spins" that I see in this thread.

 

For the record, I'll say it again, China's environmental problems are atrocious. They desperately need to change and improve their environmental record. But also understand that China opened up only 25+ years ago. America's had at least 100 years of being an advanced industrialized nation. If you expect China to be on par with the US in every way in 2007, that's delusional.

 

Given its overall economic prosperity for the short 25+ years that it's opened up to the West, I think it's done a remarkable job.

 

I'll criticize and place blame where and when appropriate but by god I'm going to assign credit where it's obviously due as well.

 

China has done an exceptional job of advancing the overall standard of living for the majority of Chinese, much better than Russia or India under "democracy".

Jim, I love you like a brother, but I must applaud Lance on his retort.

http://i20.tinypic.com/2mdflvk.gif

 

Yes silly, but still my sentiments of praise.

[david_dawei]

But also understand that China opened up only 25+ years ago. America's had at least 100 years of being an advanced industrialized nation. If you expect China to be on par with the US in every way in 2007, that's delusional.

that reminds me of the fact that China didn't become an net importer of oil till the 1990s... how long has the US been doing that in their short history?

[DMikeS4321]

In part, the report will ultimately say that in the amounts and for the short term, we see know harmful affects of the food to Western visitors.

you had me until this point...

 

So... if it's not done by american standards, it's harmful around the world?

 

That reminds me of the 'lead' issue in the items imported... I finally read that the lead is not harmful, just illegal

 

Yes, I read the same. Maybe we're over-regulated in the States?

 

Good post, David. Thank you!

[Dan R]

Thanks Jim this is great information. I look forward to more on water.

 

I see nothing wrong with using FDA standards as a benchmark for international travelers. They expect Americans to be a good market. Also currently The U.S. while definitely over regulated is about in the middle for standards for foods. Japan and Europe have lower limits on many items than we do. This is because limits must be based on expected exposure to the average diet in each country.

 

As to the US being an industrial nation for one hundred years. THis didn't happen until after WWII with the big relocation from farm to city.

 

30 years is the time frame for restored relations with the U.S.. China was never isolated. That is why the Europeans have such a hold on many markets there. We are the new guys.

 

However, China had a hard road to follow in forging a modern nation as well as moving into the modern world from a very impoverished agricultural nation. Now let's see if they can do better than us on the environmental issues. They claim to want to try but getting people to follow regulations in China is not easy.

[Tony_onrock]

Of the tens of thousands of random samples analyzed, not one, I'll repeat NOT ONE sample met the minimal standards as set by the US FDA (which was the bench mark for food analysis). Pretty scary stuff. In part, the report will ultimately say that in the amounts and for the short term, we see know harmful affects of the food to Western visitors. But that's only because they will probably eat few meals and only be in China for not more than three weeks on average. I'm sure the report will never see the light of day once it is turned over to the Chinese government or what has been reported will be taken out of context. Our findings and studies will all be handed over so that it cannot be leaked. And the next Chinese environmental issue? WATER...stay tuned.

 

Ya'll can ramble on about the Chinese environment and put your spin and be defensive, but it aint a good place to be. Yep, America has it's problems, but they ain't nuth'n like what is about to happen.

 

As aye,

 

Jim

 

Some very disturbing findings indeed Jim. Yet, my wife retorts: So? Billions of Chinese eat this exact kind of food everyday and they don't all die or become sick, not even 1%. I suspect the vast majority of all our SOs will say the same.

 

I've lived in poor GuangXi province for 6 months myself and have eaten at the poorest little eateries for like 2-4 rmb meals. I didn't get food poisoning. I also lived in Shanghai for 1.7 years from 2004 - 2006 and I don't recall having food poisoning. What I do recall is having a "grossed out" perception and reaction to many of the places I ate at, but in reality they did not produce any negative physical reactions.

 

As for putting a defensive spin on China? Whose doing that? Everyone, including myself, fully concedes that China's environmental and pollution problems are atrocious, widespread, and drastically needs changing. No one disputes that.

 

From what I've seen, the defensive side is always charging in here to defend America. America is a democracy and that in itself will solve everything. America is great. God bless America. Those are the rhetorical "defensive spins" that I see in this thread.

 

For the record, I'll say it again, China's environmental problems are atrocious. They desperately need to change and improve their environmental record. But also understand that China opened up only 25+ years ago. America's had at least 100 years of being an advanced industrialized nation. If you expect China to be on par with the US in every way in 2007, that's delusional.

 

Given its overall economic prosperity for the short 25+ years that it's opened up to the West, I think it's done a remarkable job.

 

I'll criticize and place blame where and when appropriate but by god I'm going to assign credit where it's obviously due as well.

 

China has done an exceptional job of advancing the overall standard of living for the majority of Chinese, much better than Russia or India under "democracy".

good for you.

I spent 1 week in Guanxi, Nanning and was sick for a whole month afterwards. I think it was the sour bamboo shoot thing they put in the noodles.

Last time in Chengdu, I ate at a roadside stand and got violently sick from food poisoning. I could hardly walk.

On the other hand, I also got pretty sick in Hong Kong after a seafood meal at Ritz Calton. Got bumps all over me.

Food safty is a real problem here, a very big one. Unfortunately the government is just starting to acknowledge this problem and mainly only on exports so far. This is bad.

Thus far I only buy milk powder, cheese, etc tha I feed my baby and her toys that is 100% imported.

[jim_julian]

Jim, thanks for sharing that most interesting report.

 

I to have been sick from food a number of times in China. Always from restaurant food, never from food in anyone's home.

[david_dawei]

I've been in china a total of six months time... never sick and eat anything under the sun (from any organ or body part to locust)... now I've been sick from too much alcohol, but that's another thread

[shaffej7070]

Jim, thanks for sharing that most interesting report.

 

I to have been sick from food a number of times in China. Always from restaurant food, never from food in anyone's home.

 

 

Same here.

[SirLancelot]

Thanks Jim this is great information. I look forward to more on water.

 

I see nothing wrong with using FDA standards as a benchmark for international travelers. They expect Americans to be a good market. Also currently The U.S. while definitely over regulated is about in the middle for standards for foods. Japan and Europe have lower limits on many items than we do. This is because limits must be based on expected exposure to the average diet in each country.

 

As to the US being an industrial nation for one hundred years. THis didn't happen until after WWII with the big relocation from farm to city.

 

30 years is the time frame for restored relations with the U.S.. China was never isolated. That is why the Europeans have such a hold on many markets there. We are the new guys.

 

However, China had a hard road to follow in forging a modern nation as well as moving into the modern world from a very impoverished agricultural nation. Now let's see if they can do better than us on the environmental issues. They claim to want to try but getting people to follow regulations in China is not easy.

 

Dan, I actually agree that there's nothing wrong with the FDA standards. I'm thankful we have this bare minimum standard in the US. It would be ideal if China could also adopt this bare minimum standard. I'm certainly not oppose to that.

 

The problem is that it's completely unrealistic to expect China to adopt those FDA standards now in 2007. The two countries are a world apart when viewed statistically and on the average. Perhaps when per capita income reaches parity with the US, China can enforce food safety standards which are the same as the FDA sets out, but for 2007, I think it's completely unrealistic. It would drive up the cost of food in China greatly. A lot of folks simply won't be able to afford the food that comes with that kind of safety.

 

China does offer "organic" foods and vegetable in expensive grocery stores where there's a lot of loa wei foot traffic. But I've never once seen a poor Chinese person purchase anything from the organic section. It's ridiculously priced for the average Chinese citizen.

 

As for the US industralization, I would beg to differ Dan. I would suggest the US started massively industralizing back in the 1860s and 1870's.

 

Industrial Expansion 1860-1890

http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/indust~1.htm

 

History of the United States

Industrialization and reform (1870-1916)

http://www.theusaonline.com/history/industrilazation.htm

 

As for China opening up, it may have opened up in 1978, but the real development didn't start until at least 1987.

 

Chinese Social Stratification 1979-1993

Chinese Social Stratification after 1993

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Chines...ation_1979-1993

 

I would argue that China really only unleashed itself from a completely peasantry class in the late 1980's.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_hist...ginning_in_1982

 

The most conspicuous symbols of the new status of foreign trade were the four coastal special economic zones (see Glossary), which were created in 1979 as enclaves where foreign investment could receive special treatment. Three of the four zones--the cities of Shenzhen, Zhuhai, and Shantou--were located in Guangdong Province, close to Hong Kong. The fourth, Xiamen, in Fujian Province, was directly across the strait from Taiwan. More significant for China's economic development was the designation in April 1984 of economic development zones in the fourteen largest coastal cities- -including Dalian, Tianjin, Shanghai, and Guangzhou--all of which were major commercial and industrial centers. These zones were to create productive exchanges between foreign firms with advanced technology and major Chinese economic networks.

 

Domestic commerce also was stimulated by the reform policies, which explicitly endeavored to enliven the economy by shifting the primary burden of the allocation of goods and services from the government plan to the market. Private entrepreneurship and freemarket activities were legalized and encouraged in the 1980s, although the central authorities continuously had to fight the efforts of local government agencies to impose excessive taxes on independent merchants. By 1987 the state-owned system of commercial agencies and retail outlets coexisted with a rapidly growing private and collectively owned system that competed with it vigorously, providing a wider range of consumption choices for Chinese citizens than at any previous time.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Chines...rn_middle_class

 

There are several dozens studies on China's middle class (Bian, 2002, 97) and its significance and formation.

 

If middle class is defined as the class in the middle of social structure, peasant workers comprise China's middle class. [citation needed] If the middle class is defined as a white-collar service professional class, China has a very small middle class. In other countries, this group of people gradually equaled and finally surpassed the size of the working class (Gilbert, 2003, 17).

 

China is still an industrializing agrarian society and has a long way to go to realize an industrial society. It is impossible for China to have a white-collar service professional middle class right now. In today's China, most white-collar service professionals are cadres and quasi-cadres.

 

I hope China is serious about changing its polluting ways as well. Its people deserve to have a healthier environment.