Three Gorges Dam...

Dan R · October 14, 2007

http://www.sacredland.org/legal_pages/Sequoyah_v._TVA.html

Just one of the law suits over the Tennessee Valley Authorities land comdemnations to to stop flooding and generate power very similar to the issues in China.

Change is inevitable but it is the thing humans resist most. Even when "resistance is futile" people will resist. One reason that emotions over forced land redistribution and reeducation is so hotly debated in relation to communism. It is not unknown here in the U.S.

A couple years ago one of the Indian tribes was trying to get help because families along a river wanted by a large mining concern were being found dead in the river. The Bureau of Indian Affairs had given permission for mining but they still needed to get the property from the dwellers there.

In New York a tribal council 15 years ago refused to give up land for redevelopment. The Chief and the council were put under house arrest awaiting "investigation" while a council accepted by BIA gave up the land rights.

In the end the winners claim it is progress and the losers cry bloody murder.

Sounds like it may relate to the recent Cuba comments in other threads.

October 14, 2007

Yes, as with any project, there is always an UP side and a DOWN side. It's no mystery to most that China suffers a serious problem with pollution. They are dealing with it, but in a much different way than what we do here in the US. A vast majority of Americans drive. The vast majority of Chinese do not. The Chinese culture is more than 4000 years old. The American culture, just over 200.

For every dam that is built, every tree cut, every river diverted, every road built, every stock yard, factory, building, city, train, and so forth, has an up side, and a down side. China has the largest population in the world, and is changing fast; not always making what some would consider to be wise choices. The US also has one of the largest populations in the world, and not always making what some would consider to be wise choices.

The three gorges project is the larges of its kind ever attempted. Yes, by making it, there are tradeoffs. As with any project that I've previously mentioned, one must consider the positive, and the negative. It's my view that China has done that in this case and in other cases. As with every American project there are always groups on both sides; some for and in support, some against.

I believe the people of China are capable of making their own choices for their own country. When I view an article or hear a viewpoint about a topic, I examine it carefully to see if it presents an unbiased view; whether it presents the positve, and the negative. Whether it quotes people representing both sides of an issue. I don't see that in most of the articles that Roger posts. They appear to me to be one sided.

The Hoover Dam was for many an environmental disaster. But, most of that is long forgotten, outweighed by the many benefits it provides.

Do you remember the Chevy Chase Vacation series? In one of the episodes Chevy took the family on a tour of Hoover Dam. There they met Clyde. Clyde said, "Hello everyone, I'm your dam guide Clyde. You can take as many dam pictures as you want."

:rolleyes:

jim_julian · October 15, 2007

In the main plaza in the Shapingba section of Chongqing the government has memorialized the Three Gorges project with a monument, a series of annotated carved marble walls depicting the project stages, and a "model" of the dam and the idyllic lake that will form behind it. I find it interesting that they've spent so much on this "public communications" exhibit in Chongqing.

There are no English labels so it's obviously pitched at the local population. You'll find my pictures of the Shapingba plaza project here. If you click on the first thumbnail you can scroll through larger versions of the pictures where the Chinese text is readable. In any case, the carving are pretty clear as to the message.

rogerluli · October 24, 2007

The Three Gorges: a wiser approach

Jianqiang Liu

October 23, 2007

China¡¯s central government recently warned of a potential ecological catastrophe caused by the huge Three Gorges dam, once hailed as the country¡¯s greatest undertaking in 1,000 years. Jianqiang Liu reports on how views of the project have changed."We can take some comfort from the fact that more of the truth has emerged in recent years, and people now have a more realistic understanding of the Three Gorges project."

The Three Gorges Project Corporation may herald its dam project as ¡°the greatest undertaking in the last 1,000 years of Chinese history,¡± but China¡¯s current central government does not seem to want to take credit for this achievement. In September, Chinese officials and experts said that unless steps are taken quickly to solve the environmental problems caused by the project, an ecological catastrophe could be just around the corner.

Despite almost 20 years of debate and criticism of the dam ¨C and the fact that its negative effects are already being felt ¨C there had, until that moment, never been an official admission of its problems. This sudden admission from the Three Gorges Construction Committee is a sign that the central government is starting to look objectively at the dam¡¯s negative consequences ¨C and will try to do something about them.

For the past 20 years, the public impression of the dam project in China has been shaped by an endless stream of glowing propaganda. Finding out the truth about the project (and not only about its environmental effects) has not been easy, including for journalists like me.

In June 2004, a year after the filling of the Three Gorges reservoir began, I interviewed Lu Qinkan, a 91 year-old flood defence expert. Lu was one of the original consultants advising on flood defence for the Three Gorges Project. He is also a former deputy chief engineer at the planning department of the Ministry of Water Resources and Electric Power. Two weeks before I met him, Lu joined 36 other experts in writing a letter to the central government. This letter suggested that in order to avoid severe flooding and the accumulation of sediment at the end of the reservoir near the port city of Chongqing, the reservoir should not be filled to the 175 metre level too rapidly. It was the first time I heard about the potential flood threat to Chongqing from the Three Gorges reservoir.

Rong Tianfu is on the Three Gorges project's panel of sediment experts. He is also a former chief engineer at the Transport Ministry's Yangtze Navigation Bureau, and was responsible for issues relating to Chongqing port. He told me that once the water level in the reservoir reaches 175 metres, due to the accumulation of sediment, Chongqing's Jiulongpo port and Chaotianmen wharf will both become unnavigable.

I also spoke on the telephone to Li Changjun, deputy head of the planning section of Chongqing Transport Department. He said that the accumulation of sediment is ¡°slowly becoming a reality¡± for Chongqing port. Jiulongpo is the largest port on the upper reaches of the Yangtze River, and is vitally important as a logistics and distribution base, both for Chongqing and the whole of southwest China.

Despite being well aware of the severity of the problem, the Three Gorges Project Corporation has never mentioned anything about it to the public. However, one employee of the company told me that its former general manager, Lu Youmei, once suggested the corporation could pay the few hundred million yuan to relocate Jiulongpo port to a more navigable location. When I interviewed the deputy general manager, Cao Guangjing, he put forward the same idea.

¡°The corporation thinks that if it lets through more water, it can generate more electricity,¡± said a source who works in water resources and is familiar with the Three Gorges Project Corporation. ¡°If it generates more electricity, then it can earn a lot more money, and it can simply give some of the money to Chongqing to pay for dredging. They look at the problem in business terms, but Chongqing doesn't see it that way. If sediment accumulates in large quantities, the riverbed will rise, and that will cause flood waters to rise too. This would require a second phase of mass relocation of people. Even worse, if accumulation reached a certain point, then the port would be cut off. At that point, the question for Chongqing would be no longer one of money, but of survival.¡±

Jin Shaochou, a 78 year-old geographer, told me: ¡°If, once the reservoir reaches the 175-metre level, we see floods on the same scale as China saw in 1998, the tail end of the reservoir would fill up with hundreds of millions of tonnes of sediment and shingle. Chongqing, China's most important inland port, would be cut off.¡±

However, in order to generate as much electricity and earn as much money as possible, the Three Gorges Project Corporation has given the go-ahead for the reservoir to reach the 175-metre level. Not only that, but they also told me: ¡°the quicker this takes place, the better.¡±

The problems faced by Chongqing port were not all that surprised me. On my visit to the Three Gorges, I saw how the dam is becoming a bottleneck for river transport on the Yangtze. Many large ships are unable to pass directly through the lock; heavy goods vehicles now have to leave the ships and motor further up the banks, where they board roll-on/roll-off ships. The Three Gorges Project Corporation always said in its publicity that the project would bring clear improvements to transport on the 660-kilometre stretch of the Yangtze River between Yichang and Chongqing, and that 10,000-tonne ships would be able to pass directly to Chongqing. They said that one-way capacity would increase from 10 million tonnes a year to 50 million tonnes, and that shipping costs would be reduced by 35% to 37%. But when people from Chongqing load up their boats and head downriver, they find that the Three Gorges dam is a formidable obstacle. At best, it takes 3 hours and 20 minutes to pass through the lock. Sometimes it can take several days and nights. Just before Chinese New Year in 2004, ships from Chongqing loaded with live pigs, oranges and vegetables were held up for so long that the perishable goods on board started to rot. Some of the pigs even starved to death.

People quickly started to realise that the dam was not as easy to pass through as had been predicted. Its annual capacity has never come close to reaching the 50 million tonnes it was designed for, and not one 10,000-tonne ship has ever been able to reach Chongqing directly.

Once I had completed my interviews, I sent the Three Gorges Project Corporation a copy of my draft report so that they could check for factual errors (this was a condition of the corporation agreeing to interviews), and I set off by boat for Chongqing. That evening, the corporation called me constantly. Before, they had praised me for my professionalism. Unlike most journalists who cover the dam, the corporation did not pay my expenses, and I covered my own interview costs, plane tickets and accommodation. But suddenly, their tone became sterner and far less friendly. They were unable to pick out any factual errors, but advised me to cut out the parts about Chongqing port and the transport bottleneck as a matter of ¡°national interest¡±. Of course, there is nothing unusual in this. Many companies wheel out the ¡°national interest¡± as an excuse to protect their own interests. In the end, the head of the corporation's publicity department contacted me and ¨C as if speaking to a friend ¨C warned me that some of the experts who had criticised the project were ¡°enemies of the state¡± and I should not associate myself with them. I turned off my mobile phone.

I knew that many similar reports had been spiked before publication, but luckily I was working for a newspaper that was committed to reporting the truth, and the article was published. A week later, I was on an unrelated assignment in Lichuan, on the banks of the Yangtze River in Hubei province, when I received a visit to my hotel room from four middle-aged men clutching large wads of documents. These documents were signed by several hundred people who had been relocated by the Three Gorges project and should have received compensation payments. However, the foreman of the factory where they worked had made off with several million yuan in compensation funds. The workers now found themselves utterly penniless. It was clear to me that all the propaganda surrounding the ¡°great project¡± was concealing even more shocking facts.

We can take some comfort from the fact that more of the truth has emerged in recent years, and people now have a more realistic understanding of the Three Gorges project. Despite denial after denial from some, the indisputable facts are beginning to show through.

The Three Gorges Project Corporation claimed that the dam would bring prosperity to the local people. But the corporation has set up its own travel firm, which has a monopoly on tourism in the area, shutting out local travel companies. The Three Gorges Project Corporation also insists on tourists paying a large sum of money to visit the dam, even though it is funded with tax-payers¡¯ money ¨C a part of every monthly electricity bill in China still goes to the ¡°Three Gorges Construction Fund¡±.

The Three Gorges Project Corporation said that there would not be a problem with landslides in the reservoir area. Their initial report said that the banks were stable, and there were only 150 places where landslides might occur. Once the project had received approval, however, this figure jumped to 1,500. Landslides have now taken the lives of several local villagers.

The former head of the Three Gorges Project Corporation, Lu Youmei, said in 2004 in an interview with the Beijing News that water in the Three Gorges reservoir was of Grade 2 quality, and was therefore drinkable. However, water inspection departments have since shown that the water quality in the main stream of the reservoir is at Grade 3, and if coliform group bacteria are taken into account, this goes down to Grade 5 or below. Lu Youmei's response? ¡°Maybe we calculated it wrong¡±. He later added: ¡°Coliform group bacteria are everywhere. They are even in the human stomach.¡±

The main reason the Three Gorges project was given the go-ahead was that it would prevent flooding. However, more and more evidence suggests that its flood-prevention capabilities will be well below what was claimed at the time.

The number of people who been relocated by the project is higher than was predicted. Lu Youmei said that to increase the number of displaced people by a million would be impossible because ¡°there are only 1.13 million people being moved to begin with¡±. But a report in September in the 21st Century Business Herald says that the Chongqing municipal government is currently planning a huge second phase of relocation for people living in the area of the reservoir. The number of people moved this time will be double the number relocated 10 years ago ¨C and could reach 2.3 million. The reason for this second phase of relocation is the fragility of the ecosystem around the reservoir and the high cost of developing it. Of the 1.13 million people who were relocated in the first phase, only 140,000 were moved to completely new areas. The rest were simply moved further up the banks, above the water line. Zhang Xueliang, head of the agricultural committee of Chongqing CPPCC, told me: ¡°The development of the hillsides and the relocation of over a million people to higher areas, has led to environmental destruction and increasingly severe soil erosion.¡±

Lu Youmei says that the people who have been relocated are now living happy lives and claims that ¡°there have been no instances of people trying to return¡±. However, many people who relocated from counties including Yunyang, Fengjie and Wushan have had no choice but to return home. They were not content living in the unfamiliar places they were moved to. A colleague who had been to the area told me: ¡°Over 159 people were moved from Xintong village, near the county town of Yunyang, to Jiangxi province. Out of those moved, 130 have come back to the area. They have moved into ramshackle houses in the old county town, where all the old villagers can be together again. Standing in that part of the town, I looked downhill and all I could see to the edge of the horizon was water. And under that water were the homes that the villagers would never be able to return to.¡±

More of this news is now being revealed, partly due to the efforts of researchers, the public and the media. Equally important, however, has been the tolerance of China¡¯s central government in allowing this news to be published, which stems from a wise and comprehensive stance it has taken towards the project. This stance has allowed leaders to see the benefits and the drawbacks of the project. None of the central government leaders was present at the ceremony to mark the completion of the dam on May 20, 2006. When talking about the Three Gorges dam, premier Wen Jiabao has always emphasised the importance of solving problems of relocation and environmental protection. Wang Xiaofeng said that earlier this year, Wen talked about the potential environmental problems associated with the dam at a State Council meeting.

These signs all indicate that China is going to extricate itself from the forced praise of the Three Gorges project, and objectively look at the associated problems. This is a good thing for the Chinese people ¨C and for the dam project.

DMikeS4321 · October 24, 2007

Exactly. It's the height of cultural arrogance for people in this country to expect an emerging economy to live by "our" rules. What would we do, have China build more coal fired power generation plants? Maybe nuclear power would be preferable?

It's even more amazing to read the stuff some of the more "environmentally conscious" among us post. It seems that NOBODY can do ANYTHING that will allow any kind of move towards progress, and progress is what we're talking about when we look at China.

My wife isn't that old. She moved to Nanning about 20 years ago. She remembers growing up in a small hut with no electricity and no indoor plumbing. I would have a very hard time explaining to her that she should have continued to live that way so as to soothe the sensibilities of those who can't stand progress. While I deeply sympathize with those who are being displaced, sometimes things like that are necessary.

Just a reminder, in OUR country, local government can now condemn property through emminent domain for the benefit of whatever development that government deems to be "important", whether the development be for public or private purposes. I put rural electrification a little higher on the scale than any of the eminent domain cases I've read about lately.

Best Regards

P.S. I remember a breathless panic over the silt buildup behind Grand Coulee and Hoover Dams back in the '60's. Wow, the silt was going to be so deep that the water would just spill over the top of the dams!!! Problem was, it was never a problem. Never happened.

October 24, 2007

Good post.

:rolleyes:

DMikeS4321 · October 25, 2007

Xie la...

Tony_onrock · October 25, 2007

Just curious, has anyone figured out a way to blow up that three gorges dam yet? I remember the government saying years ago that no terroist can ever destroy it. It would be fun to see if it indeed is as strong as claimed.

DMikeS4321 · October 27, 2007

I don't know of anyone who has (if I did, I'd call the authorities), but I DO know of someone who just painted a big fat target on their back.

Tony, there is no way of knowing who keeps tabs on this board, and I'm not referring to the mods....

Good Luck!

Edited October 27, 2007 by DMikeS4321 (see edit history)

SinoTexas · October 28, 2007

Maybe Edward Abbey and the Monkey Wrench Gang could help out.

As aye,

Jim

SinoTexas · October 28, 2007

As aye,

Jim

Edited October 28, 2007 by SinoTexas (see edit history)

DMikeS4321 · October 30, 2007

My Daddy used to say: "You can always tell a Texan, you just can't tell 'em much!"

October 30, 2007

:roller:

SinoTexas · October 30, 2007

As aye,

Jim

rogerluli · November 2, 2007

The Three Gorges

One dam thing after another

Nov 1st 2007 | MIAOHE

From The Economist print edition

Sceptics about the world's biggest hydroelectric dam are being vindicated

PEASANTS in the village of Miaohe on the north bank of the Yangzi River say nothing like it had occurred in their lifetimes, nor those of their parents and grandparents. One afternoon in April, for a few grim seconds, the ground shook beneath them. The Wild Cat landslide, long at rest beneath the terraced maize fields, orange-tree groves and earth-brick houses perched on the steep slope, was stirring.

Experts had long worried about the Wild Cat, 17km (10 miles) upstream from the Three Gorges dam in a narrow stretch of reservoir, in the first of the soaring gorges. Last year a coffer-dam built to protect the main dam during construction was blown up. Monitoring of the landslide zone intensified, for fear that the blast might destabilise it. If the Wild Cat's earth and boulders tumbled down the slope, they could wipe out Miaohe and slam tour boats and barges with giant waves.

Officials have long stressed the dam's benefits: a reduction (some say exaggerated) in flooding downstream; the generation of (very expensive) carbon-free power; and the creation of a 660km-long, navigation-friendly reservoir. The official press has largely ignored the many criticisms of the dam. The authorities have rapidly and sometimes brutally crushed protests by some of the more than 1.2m people moved from the reservoir area, and have often poorly compensated them. Allegations abound of resettlement funds lining officials' pockets.

But in the past few months signs have emerged that, in parts of the government at least, the resolute optimism is wavering. China's state-run news agency, Xinhua, was a few days late in reporting Miaohe's problem. When it did, it dutifully cited the official reassurance that there was little imminent risk of the slope's collapse. But it later quoted an official as saying the rise and fall of the reservoir's water level (it was lowered by 11 metres before the flood season began in the summer) had probably caused the tremble¡ªjust as experts had forewarned. Xinhua failed to report, however, that the risks will mount. The plan is to raise the reservoir next year to its maximum of 175 metres above sea level, and the seasonal variation will increase to 30 metres. This will pose an even greater threat to landslide-prone sites along the reservoir's main stream, of which scholars at South China Normal University wrote in 2003 that there were 283.

In September Xinhua got punchier. The news agency quoted ¡°officials and experts¡± as saying that the dam had caused ¡°an array of ecological ills¡± and that if preventive measures were not taken there could be a ¡°catastrophe¡±. They said that the reservoir had started to erode the Yangzi's banks in many places and that frequent landslides had been triggered by changes in the water level. A deputy mayor of Chongqing, the municipality to which most of the reservoir belongs, reportedly said that banks had collapsed in 91 places. Another official said frequent geological disasters were putting lives at risk. Water discharged from the dam was threatening the safety of anti-flood embankments downstream, according to a deputy governor of Hubei province (of which Miaohe is part).

Xinhua caused even more of a stir last month by reporting that 4m more people would be ¡°relocated¡± by 2020 because of environmental concerns. This was misleading: Chongqing has long had ambitious plans for encouraging urban migration, but they do not envisage forced relocation and are not related to the dam.

Officials have also started to sound more worried about pollution in the reservoir and its tributaries. The ferry across to Miaohe passes through polystyrene fragments and other scattered detritus accumulating behind the dam. In May Xinhua quoted a report by the Chinese Academy of Sciences saying that the reservoir was seriously polluted by pesticides, fertilisers and sewage from passenger boats.

The press's greater openness could reflect political change in Beijing. The dam's construction began in 1993 with strong backing from the country's retired supremo, Deng Xiaoping, and the two top leaders of the time, Jiang Zemin and Li Peng. A museum by the dam displays calligraphy by Mr Jiang and Mr Li and photographs of visits by them. But the current party leader and president, Hu Jintao, and the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, are less in evidence. Mr Wen, who is head of the project's construction committee, came in 2003. There is no photograph of Mr Hu at the site during his five years as party chief.

Some officials are still in denial. On October 15th Xinhua quoted Chongqing's mayor as saying that reports of environmental disasters caused by the dam could not stand scrutiny. In Miaohe vigilance appears to have slackened. Last month nearly 100 peasants, who after the tremble had been ordered for safety to shelter in a dark and damp road-tunnel, returned to their homes. Construction of new housing on safer ground, due to be finished in October, will take at least another month.

The peasants expect to keep farming the landslide zone. In an orange grove where a long fissure appeared after the scare in April (no longer visible now), a farmer drops his voice as he grumbles that villagers are not being given enough money to build their new homes. ¡°I don't want officials saying I'm giving away secrets,¡± he says nervously. Change is slow to reach the villages.

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