Sa Jiao

[david_dawei]

IMO- your wrong even if you speak english, it matters not which country you are moving from/to there are still massive cutural differences between the UK , Australia, South Africa etc and the USA . If you then compound this with an inability to talk the language of course its even harder, for example France/ Germany.

My experience from moving here was it took maybe 4 years to feel completly adjusted. My brother moved to Australi, never adjusted and moved back to the UK.

Just my opinion

I think the point your missing is the change in culture... west to west is just not as difficult as east to west (or west to east). Do you think you would adjust as fast moving to Australia as China?

 

It's not just language.. it's thinking and doing as difference.. it's a worldview which is also different. The good news is that I would guess the chinese adapt better (to the US as opposed to a USC moving to china).

 

 

Where's the disagreement? I don't see one at all.

 

Rob is saying a west-to-west immigration is a massive cultural difference.

 

David points out that a east to west immigration is even more difficult.

 

Who disagrees here? with what?

He disagreed with Lance.. making all cultural changes basically the same difficulty... I think Lance and I disagree.. that west<>east is far more difficult than west<>west.

 

Can you adjust to Australia easier than china, on your own?

 

He's claiming there are massive cultural difference when immigrating to/from ANY country, using an example of his brother who immigrated to Australia. This is FAR different from claiming that moving to Australia is AS difficult as moving China to US.

 

Sorry, but I think we're all on the same page here, except for Lance's little exaggeration:

I was thinking you're crazy to think an American moving to Australia is anything like a Chinese person moving to the USA.

I tend to think it's an exaggeration to call a west<>west move "massive".. some moves would be not too bad. I cannot think of a single asian country which would be anything other than difficult at best.

 

We might be in the same paper edition, but not the same page, IMO.

[SirLancelot]

IMO- your wrong even if you speak english, it matters not which country you are moving from/to there are still massive cutural differences between the UK , Australia, South Africa etc and the USA . If you then compound this with an inability to talk the language of course its even harder, for example France/ Germany.

My experience from moving here was it took maybe 4 years to feel completly adjusted. My brother moved to Australi, never adjusted and moved back to the UK.

Just my opinion

I think the point your missing is the change in culture... west to west is just not as difficult as east to west (or west to east). Do you think you would adjust as fast moving to Australia as China?

 

It's not just language.. it's thinking and doing as difference.. it's a worldview which is also different. The good news is that I would guess the chinese adapt better (to the US as opposed to a USC moving to china).

 

 

Where's the disagreement? I don't see one at all.

 

Rob is saying a west-to-west immigration is a massive cultural difference.

 

David points out that a east to west immigration is even more difficult.

 

Who disagrees here? with what?

He disagreed with Lance.. making all cultural changes basically the same difficulty... I think Lance and I disagree.. that west<>east is far more difficult than west<>west.

 

Can you adjust to Australia easier than china, on your own?

 

He's claiming there are massive cultural difference when immigrating to/from ANY country, using an example of his brother who immigrated to Australia. This is FAR different from claiming that moving to Australia is AS difficult as moving China to US.

 

Sorry, but I think we're all on the same page here, except for Lance's little exaggeration:

I was thinking you're crazy to think an American moving to Australia is anything like a Chinese person moving to the USA.

 

That "massive cultural difference" between the US and Australia or the UK and Australia is about the distance of Earth to the Sun and the difference between the US and China or UK and China is the distance between the Earth and the nearest star outside of our solar system.

 

My comment is an exaggeration as much as anyone who claims there's not much of a difference.

[Randy W]

Sorry, but Rob's and his brother's experiences say that west-to-west CAN be massive.

[david_dawei]

Sorry, but Rob's and his brother's experiences say that west-to-west CAN be massive.

that's ok.. I'd say it's mostly in our heads anyway..

[IllinoisDave]

Unless we know exactly what the factors were that caused Rob and his brother to have so much difficulty adjusting, it seems difficult to judge the extent to which they were cultural.

 

Could some of them have been logistical? Practical? Political? Personal?

 

Just wondering.

[Randy W]

Unless we know exactly what the factors were that caused Rob and his brother to have so much difficulty adjusting, it seems difficult to judge the extent to which they were cultural.

 

Could some of them have been logistical? Practical? Political? Personal?

 

Just wondering.

 

 

yes - I really think that it's simply difficult to move from one country/culture to another. Hats off to those who can make it seem easy.

[SirLancelot]

Unless we know exactly what the factors were that caused Rob and his brother to have so much difficulty adjusting, it seems difficult to judge the extent to which they were cultural.

 

Could some of them have been logistical? Practical? Political? Personal?

 

Just wondering.

 

 

yes - I really think that it's simply difficult to move from one country/culture to another. Hats off to those who can make it seem easy.

 

That's a reasonable statement. I can agree to and support that.

[Guest Rob & Jin]

This is tough stuff. Though everyone may have slightly different experiences, all of us will share these stages to some degree. Because we're dealing with China, the cultural differences are magnified, and often more difficult.

 

SQN, I'm glad you added your last part as prior to reading the very last caveat, I was thinking you're crazy to think an American moving to Australia is anything like a Chinese person moving to the USA. An American moving to a western country where the native language is English--such as the UK or Australia--has it so much easier--IMO--than even a Chinese person moving from GuangXi province China to Shanghai or Beijing, let alone from China to the US. There's absolutely no comparison, IMO. The difference between American culture and Chinese culture is much, much greater than between American culture and Australian culture. And of course the complete difference in language makes it yet more difficult.

 

So glad A Mafan tries to help everyone by offering to share his analysis and understanding.

 

IMO- your wrong even if you speak english, it matters not which country you are moving from/to there are still massive cutural differences between the UK , Australia, South Africa etc and the USA . If you then compound this with an inability to talk the language of course its even harder, for example France/ Germany.

My experience from moving here was it took maybe 4 years to feel completly adjusted. My brother moved to Australi, never adjusted and moved back to the UK.

Just my opinion

I think the point your missing is the change in culture... west to west is just not as difficult as east to west (or west to east). Do you think you would adjust as fast moving to Australia as China?

 

It's not just language.. it's thinking and doing as difference.. it's a worldview which is also different. The good news is that I would guess the chinese adapt better (to the US as opposed to a USC moving to china).

 

This was what i was responding to mostly

 

An American moving to a western country where the native language is English--such as the UK or Australia--has it so much easier--IMO--than even a Chinese person moving from GuangXi province China to Shanghai or Beijing,

 

would love to know what what this is based on, personal experiences ?

Edited September 13, 2007 by Rob & Jin (see edit history)

[Guest Rob & Jin]

Unless we know exactly what the factors were that caused Rob and his brother to have so much difficulty adjusting, it seems difficult to judge the extent to which they were cultural.

 

Could some of them have been logistical? Practical? Political? Personal?

 

Just wondering.

 

 

I adjusted fine i'm still here, but it takes time, UK and USA are not the same, different cultures. My brother and his wife never adjusted to Australia, they never felt accepted so left

[SmilingAsia]

My wife is an ocean of emotion. Sometimes she is placid and warm. Sometimes she is a towering tsunami. I used to get swamped by the big waves. Now I surf on top of them, unharmed, safe and dry. She is safe to be herself, and her energy is spent easily and safely, without damage to our love and relationship.

Did you ever think of going back to your suppliers to find out the source of problems? Maybe talk with your parents-in-laws to find out how Ya Tou was raised. Through casual talking, try to be interested in the things of her childhood, you may get the information you want and find the cure.

 

As far as I know, it's not easy to be a government official, tangible and in-tangible pressure, many officials blew off easily and might thrust their frustration at their children after arriving home from work.

The wife of a government official might feel insecure and she tried her best to control, which will also have negative impact on their children.

 

Since my childhood, we got the orientation: everything (family, kins, love, children, material stuff, everything) should be sacrificed for The Revolution Cause, to serve the country. Many children got ignored. When this ignored child grew up and got married, the first time being so close to a person she can rely on, she may demand full attention, tons of love from the spouse, plus unrealistic expectations.

[A Mafan]

Did you ever think of going back to your suppliers to find out the source of problems? Maybe talk with your parents-in-laws to find out how Ya Tou was raised. Through casual talking, try to be interested in the things of her childhood, you may get the information you want and find the cure.

 

As far as I know, it's not easy to be a government official, tangible and in-tangible pressure, many officials blew off easily and might thrust their frustration at their children after arriving home from work.

The wife of a government official might feel insecure and she tried her best to control, which will also have negative impact on their children.

 

Since my childhood, we got the orientation: everything (family, kins, love, children, material stuff, everything) should be sacrificed for The Revolution Cause, to serve the country. Many children got ignored. When this ignored child grew up and got married, the first time being so close to a person she can rely on, she may demand full attention, tons of love from the spouse, plus unrealistic expectations.

Yeah, I've looked into it, I know her father quite well, and I've met her entire family. Rather that being the result of neglect/anger, the opposite is true. She was raised in a very close, very warm extended family, and her dad has always been emotionally stable and indulgent of his wife and daughter. Her dad (to a certain extent), and even more so her uncles, are all the John Wayne, ultracapable, tough-with-life-but-gentle-with-their-women type.

 

It's not so much that she's passing on abuse that she got earlier in life, as much as I have a *really* tough example to follow. Particularly since Feminist America has been quite successful in conditioning Man-ness out of the American Male. Particularly for anyone 40 years and below. Yeah, there are still lots of Men out there who had strong enough self-identity to not be affected by the Feminist fantasy, but I wasn't.

 

It's just another reason to love my wife: she is the one woman who expected, demanded, and helped me grow into being a Man.

Edited September 13, 2007 by A Mafan (see edit history)

[Joanne]

It's not so much that she's passing on abuse that she got earlier in life, as much as I have a *really* tough example to follow.

 

Now you know your goal. That's good.

[Guest Rob & Jin]

"Sa Jiao" (撒娇) doesn't have a corresponding English word.

If you look it up in the dictionary, it probably says something like: "to act like a pampered child."

 

It took some time for me to understand my wife's sa jiao methods. It usually isn't complaining with a cute pout (the typical Sa Jiao), it usually is complaining almost nonsensically about something she said she wanted. It's putting me in a no-win situation, almost like she's looking to cause trouble, making something of nothing.

 

It caused many of our fights, as I didn't understand what she wanted/needed.

 

I really can't tell you what the breakthrough was, except just being convinced that she DOES love me and want to be happy with me forever, and then still doing this sort of angry complaining. Well, if she loves me as much as she says she does, maybe I'm misinterpreting her words and tone of voice?

 

So instead of making an issue of what she originally said she wanted, when she pulled out her angry complaint, I just reversed course and went with her complaint. She dropped the anger and we had a good time.

 

Thus, it finally started to sink in: what she wants is to know that I care; that I put her first; that I seek her happiness, even if it might be inconsistent with what she just said 5 minutes ago. I started to notice that what she says she wants first is when she is trying to be reasonable, logicial, and self-sacrificing...but her Sa Jiao is a cry for me to show my love for her.

 

So I talked to her about it last night in the hot tub. She not only agreed that what I originally thought was small-minded, angry complaining *WAS* her "Sa Jiao". She asked what "sa jiao" was in English, and I told her "to act like a child", and that when a US woman tries it, the typical US reaction is an impatient, "Oh grow up!" She said that Sa Jiao is very womanly in Chinese society; a woman who doesn't use Sa Jiao isn't really very feminine, as far as she understands it.

 

So if your wife is a little bit bitchy, it might be her way of Sa Jiao. It is child-like in how it is acting out to cry for attention/love. It might be soft (like the semi-coquettish pouting) or it might be hard, like my wife's. But it shouldn't be taken as a personal affront. If you respond by giving the love/attention/consideration she is looking for, you'll avoid a fight and grow closer to your wife.

 

And you Chinese wives (if you are reading this), if you often end up in a fight when you try to Sa Jiao, you can try to make your Sa Jiao more clear; be sure to explain to your husband what you are doing and what you want him to do about it at some point when you aren't fighting.

 

Great post, to be honest I had no idea about this, I asked Jin about this and we had a long talk, she explained it to me and its importance/ normality to chinese woman. just between us she was amazed I asked her, to her its a normal thing she did not realize western woman not do it too. Oh to add something she thinks its fun when my boys do it with me too, which they do often.The more I learn about Jin , her ways, the more I love her, WOW there must have been a very deep reason that we found eachother, but she is the greatest woman, I love her so very much

Wonderful insightful thread, has expanded my understanding of Chinese culture, you have my vote for member of the month

Edited September 13, 2007 by Rob & Jin (see edit history)

[Q&Q]

"Sa Jiao" (Èö½¿) doesn't have a corresponding English word.

If you look it up in the dictionary, it probably says something like: "to act like a pampered child."

 

 

Is "whining" a synonym of "Sa Jiao"?

[Guest Rob & Jin]

IMO- your wrong even if you speak english, it matters not which country you are moving from/to there are still massive cutural differences between the UK , Australia, South Africa etc and the USA . If you then compound this with an inability to talk the language of course its even harder, for example France/ Germany.

My experience from moving here was it took maybe 4 years to feel completly adjusted. My brother moved to Australi, never adjusted and moved back to the UK.

Just my opinion

I think the point your missing is the change in culture... west to west is just not as difficult as east to west (or west to east). Do you think you would adjust as fast moving to Australia as China?

 

It's not just language.. it's thinking and doing as difference.. it's a worldview which is also different. The good news is that I would guess the chinese adapt better (to the US as opposed to a USC moving to china).

 

 

Where's the disagreement? I don't see one at all.

 

Rob is saying a west-to-west immigration is a massive cultural difference.

 

David points out that a east to west immigration is even more difficult.

 

Who disagrees here? with what?

He disagreed with Lance.. making all cultural changes basically the same difficulty... I think Lance and I disagree.. that west<>east is far more difficult than west<>west.

 

Can you adjust to Australia easier than china, on your own?

 

He's claiming there are massive cultural difference when immigrating to/from ANY country, using an example of his brother who immigrated to Australia. This is FAR different from claiming that moving to Australia is AS difficult as moving China to US.

 

Sorry, but I think we're all on the same page here, except for Lance's little exaggeration:

I was thinking you're crazy to think an American moving to Australia is anything like a Chinese person moving to the USA.

I tend to think it's an exaggeration to call a west<>west move "massive".. some moves would be not too bad. I cannot think of a single asian country which would be anything other than difficult at best.

 

We might be in the same paper edition, but not the same page, IMO.

 

ever been to South Africa ? try and then re- post