Sa Jiao

[A Mafan]

 

 

Randy brings up the American counter point, as did Dennis earlier.

 

Sa Jiao would indeed be construed as a "game" by most American men.

 

I tend to view SaJiao as affection and flirtation. A method to obtained a certain goal in mind. Most Chinese men go along with it because culturally they're used to this concept and accept it. But I don't believe most American men will accept it or even really understand it. It will most likely be viewed as the Chinese SO being rather childish, spoiled and immature.

 

Sa Jiao also goes directly counter to women's equality, IMO. A Mafan may disagree, but I think SaJiao doesn't work very well in the US because there is such a hard push for women to be the equal of men. Intrinsic in the idea of SaJiao is that men should really pamper the women. Feminists would consider SaJiao a form of cultural subjugation of women; a perpetuation of patronizing women to be in a continued childish & child-like state and an unhealthy dependence on men to achieve their goals.

 

(This is getting a little too deep, even for me. So I'll stop.)

Actually, I agree. I think I tried to make the point that many feminists would think she gives too much, to the point they would consider exploitation. I absolutely blame the striving for equality in all things, rather than celebrating the differences, and using those differences to build a strong relationship.

Sajiao is exactly one of those differences. Men should not use sajiao. Women have different ways of pampering their men. That difference is good. But yeah, I think most American would have a hard time understanding it initially...or maybe ever.

[A Mafan]

If I leave because of an argument, I will pack a few clothes and some personal effects. Nobody can stop me. I will have a vacation, maybe in a friend's house. I will show up at the door in a few days ³Õ³Õ´ô´ô, È¥ÁËÓÖÀ´!

 

That would scare the crap out of me! And I have to say I wouldn't be too happy about it, especially if I didn't know where she was.

 

I guess I have alot more to prepare for than I thought.

Every woman is different; every relationship is different. Sometimes it depends on who has the power in the relationship; other times it just depends on how your relationship develops.

 

But it never hurts to hear what are some of the other possibilities out there, so that if you two do have problems, you don't feel isolated...or like you are the only one going through it.

 

That's the beauty of Candle for Love, eh?

[A Mafan]

You guys are scaring me !!

I am married to a woman who I would do anything I can to make her happy.

Yet, when I read what you guys are saying, you may as well be talking rubbish.. I don't understand a thing your saying.

So, it scares me. What is it I need to know to make my wife happy?

I know you have tried to explain, and I read your words, but I dont understand at all

If someone can explain to me in really simple words, maybe I can get it?

I think Mafan's case is very special. His logic suits his specific case. If you have married a single mother, she has been tamed by life before you do. If you are married to a daughter of farmers or average workers, she may not have been spoiled.

 

I'm always amazed by Mafan's way of analysing a situation and the logic he has found.

To be honest, I always think Mafan has extremely high IQ and is very knowledgeable that it would be surprising if his wife doesn't admire this.

Mafan, in daily life, do you act like Newton or Albert Einstein´óÖÇÈôÓÞ, ²»³ÔÈ˼äÑÌ»ð and that's the reason Ya Tou is mad at you?

I really don't know how to respond to this...of course everyone loves hearing they are smart! But if I am so smart, why did I have so many problems with Yatou for so long?

I *am* philosophical. So I figure there always is an answer. Most of our fighting over the first year was because it seemed like she didn't really love me. Well, we argued to prove that she really does care (which was hard for me to understand, too), so since she wasn't treating me the way I thought someone who loved me should, well, maybe I needed to figure out how she showed love.

 

I was always pretty good at fitting in in a Chinese society, making friends, at work, etc. But it took until now for me to realize how different a Chinese loving/marriage relationship is. I'm just glad Yatou stuck with me, because there were a few times it would have been easier to give up and go home.

[chilton747]

You guys are scaring me !!

I am married to a woman who I would do anything I can to make her happy.

Yet, when I read what you guys are saying, you may as well be talking rubbish.. I don't understand a thing your saying.

So, it scares me. What is it I need to know to make my wife happy?

I know you have tried to explain, and I read your words, but I dont understand at all

If someone can explain to me in really simple words, maybe I can get it?

I think Mafan's case is very special. His logic suits his specific case. If you have married a single mother, she has been tamed by life before you do. If you are married to a daughter of farmers or average workers, she may not have been spoiled.

 

I'm always amazed by Mafan's way of analysing a situation and the logic he has found.

To be honest, I always think Mafan has extremely high IQ and is very knowledgeable that it would be surprising if his wife doesn't admire this.

Mafan, in daily life, do you act like Newton or Albert Einstein´óÖÇÈôÓÞ, ²»³ÔÈ˼äÑÌ»ð and that's the reason Ya Tou is mad at you?

I really don't know how to respond to this...of course everyone loves hearing they are smart! But if I am so smart, why did I have so many problems with Yatou for so long?

I *am* philosophical. So I figure there always is an answer. Most of our fighting over the first year was because it seemed like she didn't really love me. Well, we argued to prove that she really does care (which was hard for me to understand, too), so since she wasn't treating me the way I thought someone who loved me should, well, maybe I needed to figure out how she showed love.

 

I was always pretty good at fitting in in a Chinese society, making friends, at work, etc. But it took until now for me to realize how different a Chinese loving/marriage relationship is. I'm just glad Yatou stuck with me, because there were a few times it would have been easier to give up and go home.

That is what makes them special. They are in it for the long haul

[NewDay2006]

I guess it might work for you, goodluck.

My past marriage ended quickly... don't know if that was the reason or she was simply a greencard seeker... it was shocking to say the least, my ex drew the line in the sand at every turn.

 

I kind of need my women to act rational,... I wonder, is that an irrational thought by me?

 

I beleive one has to "not sweat the small stuff",... but isn't it mostly all small stuff in day to day living?

She might have just been seeking a green card; or you might not have understood what she was seeking from you.

 

I really don't know, to tell the truth. I wish I was some Zen master who could tell you some hidden truth about your own relationships...but I'm just some fool who nearly screwed up my own marriage through ignorance and arrogance and immaturity.

Joanne asked me once if I really was so bad to have my wife get so angry. I didn't know what to say because I didn't think I was that bad, but no one really considers themselves bad, or a jerk...yet we meet jerks every day, right?

 

I do know what is working for me, and I just want to share these flashes of insight in hopes that it can help someone else. I would not insist that my experience applies to everyone. Every relationship is different. The right medicine applied to the wrong illness can make things worse instead of better.

 

I guess, I was attempting to be open-minded when I expressed doubts of my ex's motives... but truthfully, after thinking about it(and I do still think about it ),there is no doubt in my mind she was dishonest and very calculating in our very short time together(6 weeks). My ex had a place to go(San Fran) and gave me no way to communicate with her. Then attempted to get $800 a month alimoney from me after being married for 27 days. Thankfully, it ended quickly, the consequence is I now pay the price for making a foolish choice by waiting long time to get a visa for my current wife. But the good part I found a good woman who really loves me.

 

It is very commendable that you and your wife have stuck to it and are working through your problems. IF anyone says marriage is a cake walk, most would be lying for the most part.

Edited September 11, 2007 by NewDay2006 (see edit history)

[SmilingAsia]

That is what makes them special. They are in it for the long haul

Not everybody is that special. Your wife was beaten up by her father in her childhood which has negative impact later in her life and it takes great love to heal. The majority of Chinese women are just average. I used to work with American women, British women, Filipina and their way of thinking and behavior is not much different from ours. We are all talkative, talking about kids, women's stuff. We talked about things which we don't want guys to hear. Women are women, universal. Edited September 12, 2007 by SmilingAsia (see edit history)

[SmilingAsia]

But if I am so smart, why did I have so many problems with Yatou for so long?

Lure her to talk about her childhood (the unpleasant memories which she tried to forget and was not willing to tell anyone else), how she was raised. Maybe you'll find the source of the problems and cure.

[chilton747]

That is what makes them special. They are in it for the long haul

Not everybody is that special. Your wife was beaten up by her father in her childhood which has negative impact later in her life and it takes great love to heal. The majority of Chinese women are just average. I used to work with American women, British women, Filipina and their way of thinking and behavior is not much different from ours. We are all talkative, talking about kids, women's stuff. We talked about things which we don't want guys to hear. Women are women, universal.

Eunice I agree with you completely. My statement to AMafan was my opinion as to why she has remained with him throughout their turbulent times. Many women and men for that matter would tuck tail and run. AMafan and his wife are working very hard to settle their differences.

My wife definitely has an anger issue that is directly associated with her horrible upbringing. But as you said, it takes great love to heal. It is totally amazing to me how someone can go through what she did and not remain bitter about life and love. If anything, her quest for a better life has enriched her soul and opened her heart and I am the lucky one to have her for a wife.

Yes women are women and men are men in the broad sense. But each person is unique in their heart and soul.

AMafan you are a man of great courage to admit your shortcomings in your relationship. Many men are simply too proud to admit guilt.

[Guest Rob & Jin]

This is tough stuff. Though everyone may have slightly different experiences, all of us will share these stages to some degree. Because we're dealing with China, the cultural differences are magnified, and often more difficult.

 

SQN, I'm glad you added your last part as prior to reading the very last caveat, I was thinking you're crazy to think an American moving to Australia is anything like a Chinese person moving to the USA. An American moving to a western country where the native language is English--such as the UK or Australia--has it so much easier--IMO--than even a Chinese person moving from GuangXi province China to Shanghai or Beijing, let alone from China to the US. There's absolutely no comparison, IMO. The difference between American culture and Chinese culture is much, much greater than between American culture and Australian culture. And of course the complete difference in language makes it yet more difficult.

 

So glad A Mafan tries to help everyone by offering to share his analysis and understanding.

 

IMO- your wrong even if you speak english, it matters not which country you are moving from/to there are still massive cutural differences between the UK , Australia, South Africa etc and the USA . If you then compound this with an inability to talk the language of course its even harder, for example France/ Germany.

My experience from moving here was it took maybe 4 years to feel completly adjusted. My brother moved to Australi, never adjusted and moved back to the UK.

Just my opinion

[david_dawei]

This is tough stuff. Though everyone may have slightly different experiences, all of us will share these stages to some degree. Because we're dealing with China, the cultural differences are magnified, and often more difficult.

 

SQN, I'm glad you added your last part as prior to reading the very last caveat, I was thinking you're crazy to think an American moving to Australia is anything like a Chinese person moving to the USA. An American moving to a western country where the native language is English--such as the UK or Australia--has it so much easier--IMO--than even a Chinese person moving from GuangXi province China to Shanghai or Beijing, let alone from China to the US. There's absolutely no comparison, IMO. The difference between American culture and Chinese culture is much, much greater than between American culture and Australian culture. And of course the complete difference in language makes it yet more difficult.

 

So glad A Mafan tries to help everyone by offering to share his analysis and understanding.

 

IMO- your wrong even if you speak english, it matters not which country you are moving from/to there are still massive cutural differences between the UK , Australia, South Africa etc and the USA . If you then compound this with an inability to talk the language of course its even harder, for example France/ Germany.

My experience from moving here was it took maybe 4 years to feel completly adjusted. My brother moved to Australi, never adjusted and moved back to the UK.

Just my opinion

I think the point your missing is the change in culture... west to west is just not as difficult as east to west (or west to east). Do you think you would adjust as fast moving to Australia as China?

 

It's not just language.. it's thinking and doing as difference.. it's a worldview which is also different. The good news is that I would guess the chinese adapt better (to the US as opposed to a USC moving to china).

[SirLancelot]

This is tough stuff. Though everyone may have slightly different experiences, all of us will share these stages to some degree. Because we're dealing with China, the cultural differences are magnified, and often more difficult.

 

SQN, I'm glad you added your last part as prior to reading the very last caveat, I was thinking you're crazy to think an American moving to Australia is anything like a Chinese person moving to the USA. An American moving to a western country where the native language is English--such as the UK or Australia--has it so much easier--IMO--than even a Chinese person moving from GuangXi province China to Shanghai or Beijing, let alone from China to the US. There's absolutely no comparison, IMO. The difference between American culture and Chinese culture is much, much greater than between American culture and Australian culture. And of course the complete difference in language makes it yet more difficult.

 

So glad A Mafan tries to help everyone by offering to share his analysis and understanding.

 

IMO- your wrong even if you speak english, it matters not which country you are moving from/to there are still massive cutural differences between the UK , Australia, South Africa etc and the USA . If you then compound this with an inability to talk the language of course its even harder, for example France/ Germany.

My experience from moving here was it took maybe 4 years to feel completly adjusted. My brother moved to Australi, never adjusted and moved back to the UK.

Just my opinion

I think the point your missing is the change in culture... west to west is just not as difficult as east to west (or west to east). Do you think you would adjust as fast moving to Australia as China?

 

It's not just language.. it's thinking and doing as difference.. it's a worldview which is also different. The good news is that I would guess the chinese adapt better (to the US as opposed to a USC moving to china).

 

 

Yep, I agree with DavidZ.

 

Rob, you're free to disagree. We all have our opinions.

 

Western cultures have lots in common. Even if you have very different sounding languages, such as German vs English or French vs Swedish, the similarities between Western cultures are so much more than Western vs Eastern.

 

Likewise, Asian countries/cultures are much more similar with each other. Their are great similarities between Korean, Japanese and Chinese, despite the fact that their languages are quite different--much more so than between these three cultures and Western European cultures.

 

If a Brit found it hard to move to Aussieland, then a Brit moving to China or Japan would find it astronomically hard to adapt--unless the Brit was am Orient-pile and obsessed with all things Asian. Then he might just fit in better, but generally speaking it would be much, much more difficult.

 

That's my opinion.

[IllinoisDave]

If I leave because of an argument, I will pack a few clothes and some personal effects. Nobody can stop me. I will have a vacation, maybe in a friend's house. I will show up at the door in a few days 痴痴呆呆, 去了又来!

 

That would scare the crap out of me! And I have to say I wouldn't be too happy about it, especially if I didn't know where she was.

 

I guess I have alot more to prepare for than I thought.

Every woman is different; every relationship is different. Sometimes it depends on who has the power in the relationship; other times it just depends on how your relationship develops.

 

But it never hurts to hear what are some of the other possibilities out there, so that if you two do have problems, you don't feel isolated...or like you are the only one going through it.

 

That's the beauty of Candle for Love, eh?

 

So true.

[Randy W]

 

 

IMO- your wrong even if you speak english, it matters not which country you are moving from/to there are still massive cutural differences between the UK , Australia, South Africa etc and the USA . If you then compound this with an inability to talk the language of course its even harder, for example France/ Germany.

My experience from moving here was it took maybe 4 years to feel completly adjusted. My brother moved to Australi, never adjusted and moved back to the UK.

Just my opinion

I think the point your missing is the change in culture... west to west is just not as difficult as east to west (or west to east). Do you think you would adjust as fast moving to Australia as China?

 

It's not just language.. it's thinking and doing as difference.. it's a worldview which is also different. The good news is that I would guess the chinese adapt better (to the US as opposed to a USC moving to china).

 

 

Where's the disagreement? I don't see one at all.

 

Rob is saying a west-to-west immigration is a massive cultural difference.

 

David points out that a east to west immigration is even more difficult.

 

Who disagrees here? with what?

[david_dawei]

 

 

IMO- your wrong even if you speak english, it matters not which country you are moving from/to there are still massive cutural differences between the UK , Australia, South Africa etc and the USA . If you then compound this with an inability to talk the language of course its even harder, for example France/ Germany.

My experience from moving here was it took maybe 4 years to feel completly adjusted. My brother moved to Australi, never adjusted and moved back to the UK.

Just my opinion

I think the point your missing is the change in culture... west to west is just not as difficult as east to west (or west to east). Do you think you would adjust as fast moving to Australia as China?

 

It's not just language.. it's thinking and doing as difference.. it's a worldview which is also different. The good news is that I would guess the chinese adapt better (to the US as opposed to a USC moving to china).

 

 

Where's the disagreement? I don't see one at all.

 

Rob is saying a west-to-west immigration is a massive cultural difference.

 

David points out that a east to west immigration is even more difficult.

 

Who disagrees here? with what?

He disagreed with Lance.. making all cultural changes basically the same difficulty... I think Lance and I disagree.. that west<>east is far more difficult than west<>west.

 

Can you adjust to Australia easier than china, on your own?

[Randy W]

IMO- your wrong even if you speak english, it matters not which country you are moving from/to there are still massive cutural differences between the UK , Australia, South Africa etc and the USA . If you then compound this with an inability to talk the language of course its even harder, for example France/ Germany.

My experience from moving here was it took maybe 4 years to feel completly adjusted. My brother moved to Australi, never adjusted and moved back to the UK.

Just my opinion

I think the point your missing is the change in culture... west to west is just not as difficult as east to west (or west to east). Do you think you would adjust as fast moving to Australia as China?

 

It's not just language.. it's thinking and doing as difference.. it's a worldview which is also different. The good news is that I would guess the chinese adapt better (to the US as opposed to a USC moving to china).

 

 

Where's the disagreement? I don't see one at all.

 

Rob is saying a west-to-west immigration is a massive cultural difference.

 

David points out that a east to west immigration is even more difficult.

 

Who disagrees here? with what?

He disagreed with Lance.. making all cultural changes basically the same difficulty... I think Lance and I disagree.. that west<>east is far more difficult than west<>west.

 

Can you adjust to Australia easier than china, on your own?

 

He's claiming there are massive cultural difference when immigrating to/from ANY country, using an example of his brother who immigrated to Australia. This is FAR different from claiming that moving to Australia is AS difficult as moving China to US.

 

Sorry, but I think we're all on the same page here, except for Lance's little exaggeration:

I was thinking you're crazy to think an American moving to Australia is anything like a Chinese person moving to the USA.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Randy W (see edit history)