communist party issues

[david_dawei]

Communist party issue comes up once at a while. It is like a ghost hovering at the interview. The law regarding CCP is an obsolete law of the cold war era and it is out of touch of reality of today. CCP membership in China is just a way of making a living and most of the time it has nothing to do with ideology. Should a SO tell her CCP membership to satisfy an obsolete law?

Don't offer what they don't ask for; if asked, tell the truth.

[tywy_99]

Here's the link: Communist Party Issues; where this thread can be added to.

[david_dawei]

Here's the link: Communist Party Issues; where this thread can be added to.

Done

[SirLancelot]

Communist party issue comes up once at a while. It is like a ghost hovering at the interview. The law regarding CCP is an obsolete law of the cold war era and it is out of touch of reality of today. CCP membership in China is just a way of making a living and most of the time it has nothing to do with ideology. Should a SO tell her CCP membership to satisfy an obsolete law?

 

Raindrop, I'm sorry to hear about your blueslips. I hope you guys obtain an overcome eventually.

 

I also want to disclaim that I think the law we have in the US discriminating against CCP membership is stupid and anachronistic. I think CCP members should be allowed entry to the US like non-CCP members.

 

Now, having made that disclaimer, it also must be pointed out that many of you have VERY distorted and ignorant views of CCP membership in China.

 

Are you aware that of 1.3 billion Chinese people, there's only around 68-70 million members? That's around 5% of the entire population.

 

I read on here often that "oh my wife was forced into joining the CCP only for work reasons". That's PURE CRAP! Obtaining CCP membership is a coveted goal. It's with precise and deliberate objective that anyone joins the CCP. It's also highly competitive and no member is simply handed membership. Members are vetted carefully and complete background checks done to make sure members qualify.

 

Again, CCP membership is a very elite status in China and 95% of the population haven't obtained membership. Many people try to obtain membership but are rejected.

 

While it's certainly true that acquiring CCP membership may give the recipient special treatment in job opportunities, it certainly is NOT forced upon them. The closer truth is the member deliberately sought out the CCP membership and actively campaigned to be approved for membership.

 

Only 5 out of every 100 people you meet in China have CCP membership. Keep this in mind.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China

 

There's nothing wrong with being a member of the CCP. After all, we have a Communist Party USA ( http://www.cpusa.org/ ) and all Americans are free to join this organization. Under our Bill of Rights, you're guaranteed that freedom to join. So why should Chinese CCP members be excluded that freedom to join any political party of their choosing?

[Randy W]

Lance, you should read the links Ty and David have provided for a much more realistic picture of the Communist Party relative to the issues we face than Wikipedia can provide.

Edited September 15, 2007 by Randy W (see edit history)

[SirLancelot]

Lance, you should read the links Ty and David have provided for a much more realistic picture of the Communist Party relative to the issues we face than Wikipedia can provide.

 

I used wiki as a source to reference my 5% figure so people don't think I'm pulling the figure out of my butt. The rest of the info I gave comes from first hand knowledge with regards to CCP membership in China. I have no experience with CCP membership as it relates to GUZ or how it affects visa approval but I do understand very well the CCP membership as it relates to China and the Chinese government.

[Randy W]

 

I read on here often that "oh my wife was forced into joining the CCP only for work reasons". That's PURE CRAP!

 

. . .

 

While it's certainly true that acquiring CCP membership may give the recipient special treatment in job opportunities, it certainly is NOT forced upon them. The closer truth is the member deliberately sought out the CCP membership and actively campaigned to be approved for membership

 

 

Several of our members were given visas after proving to the VO's satisfaction that membership was necessary for their job position. I think emotionality over-took reality there.

[SirLancelot]

 

I read on here often that "oh my wife was forced into joining the CCP only for work reasons". That's PURE CRAP!

 

. . .

 

While it's certainly true that acquiring CCP membership may give the recipient special treatment in job opportunities, it certainly is NOT forced upon them. The closer truth is the member deliberately sought out the CCP membership and actively campaigned to be approved for membership

 

 

Several of our members were given visas after proving to the VO's satisfaction that membership was necessary for their job position. I think emotionality over-took reality there.

 

I don't dispute that some jobs/positions--especially for government work--requires CCP membership. What I do dispute is the use of the word "force". That is CRAP.

 

Anyone is quite free to decline CCP membership. They may not attain that specific position but they're free to decline. Again, CCP membership is a heavily coveted status. It's not something most people decline or even want to decline. It's a status people actively seek. Having a requirement for a job position does not equate to "forcing" someone into anything. It's a choice one makes. My job requires a 4 year college degree. It does not mean I'm "forced" to go to college. I could equally have not gone to college and found some other kind of job with less requirement.

 

It's ONLY for the purpose of going abroad when CCP membership becomes a negative. It's an EXTREMELY positive status within China.

 

I think it's completely misleading that some people on here try to paint CCP membership as a negative in China--like it's something to be ashamed of or that people are "forced" to join. BS! One is never forced to join. It's a coveted status! And the stats alone back up how "elite" of a status CCP membership is in China.

 

If you don't want to accept that, fine. Then you'd be misunderstanding the reality of CCP membership in China.

 

I will accept for practical and pragmatic reasoning why Chinese people may claim they were "forced" into CCP membership when they want to obtain US immigration visas, but I highly doubt--and contest the notion--that they'd say they were "forced" into CCP membership in China to their friends or family. No one would believe that in China. It's like someone in the US said "Oh, I was 'forced' to go to Harvard or Yale!". Umm.. Yeah, right!

[david_dawei]

lance, I tend to agree with most of it... but wonder whether those who need it for their job would say they wanted the membership; I suspect they want the job and membership is required.. then what is one to do? Just forget this job? I don't think so.. the pragmatic answer is, sign up since there is truly little option (ie: if they don't stick with this job, they will end up in something else they don't want).

[chilton747]

lance, I tend to agree with most of it... but wonder whether those who need it for their job would say they wanted the membership; I suspect they want the job and membership is required.. then what is one to do? Just forget this job? I don't think so.. the pragmatic answer is, sign up since there is truly little option (ie: if they don't stick with this job, they will end up in something else they don't want).

Or they will end up with nothing.

[SirLancelot]

lance, I tend to agree with most of it... but wonder whether those who need it for their job would say they wanted the membership; I suspect they want the job and membership is required.. then what is one to do? Just forget this job? I don't think so.. the pragmatic answer is, sign up since there is truly little option (ie: if they don't stick with this job, they will end up in something else they don't want).

 

Valid point David. It is a requirement. But again, I'm frustrated with the use of the word--or the inference of thought--that it's "forced".

 

If a position in the US required a MBA as a prerequisite does that mean I'm forced to obtain a MBA? I don't think people would use the word forced, and thus I don't think people in China are forced to join. In fact, the other point I was trying to make was that because it's so exclusive, the Party certainly doesn't go about randomly handing out CCP membership to just anyone. One has to be vetted and checked. Then one is offered the "honor" of CCP membership.

 

I would find it very hard to believe that someone wouldn't want that "honor" when offered to them. Thus, I believe no one is ever forced to join but rather that they embrace the honor eagerly. It's only much later when they sudden want to go abroad to immigrate that their membership to the CCP may bite their butts. Otherwise in China, their membership to the CCP is a honor and privilege.

[Randy W]

lance, I tend to agree with most of it... but wonder whether those who need it for their job would say they wanted the membership; I suspect they want the job and membership is required.. then what is one to do? Just forget this job? I don't think so.. the pragmatic answer is, sign up since there is truly little option (ie: if they don't stick with this job, they will end up in something else they don't want).

 

Valid point David. It is a requirement. But again, I'm frustrated with the use of the word--or the inference of thought--that it's "forced".

 

If a position in the US required a MBA as a prerequisite does that mean I'm forced to obtain a MBA? I don't think people would use the word forced, and thus I don't think people in China are forced to join. In fact, the other point I was trying to make was that because it's so exclusive, the Party certainly doesn't go about randomly handing out CCP membership to just anyone. One has to be vetted and checked. Then one is offered the "honor" of CCP membership.

 

I would find it very hard to believe that someone wouldn't want that "honor" when offered to them. Thus, I believe no one is ever forced to join but rather that they embrace the honor eagerly. It's only much later when they sudden want to go abroad to immigrate that their membership to the CCP may bite their butts. Otherwise in China, their membership to the CCP is a honor and privilege.

 

 

Lance, you are the only person in this entire thread who has used the word "forced". You are arguing with yourself.

 

It seems to me that people have a good understanding of Communist party issues, at least at a personal level. The use of emotionalism isn't called for.

 

Every discussion that I remember about Communist party issues centers around its effect on the visa.

[IllinoisDave]

I'm hesitant to wade into this because comparatively I know little about this issue as it pertains to China itself.

 

But I think I do remember in some past threads the fairly strong implication that people have been forced to join the Party to qualify for certain jobs. I know no one is suggesting that they were literally "forced" physically, rather "forced" or "required" out of necessity. Certainly they didn't have to take the job, but they should be able to take such a job without repercussions when it comes to the visa process.

 

When words like "forced" are used, it conjures up the notion of "Big Bad Commie China" forcing it's citizens to join "The Party" to make a living. In this sense I can see where it could be a sensitive subject for Lance or any of us with an affinity for the China we've come to know and love.

 

Maybe it is being a little sensitive to bring it up. But with all the China-bashing going on in this country today (not necessarily here at Candle), I don't think we can really blame a member here for wishing to steer the discourse in a more China-friendly direction, even if we are just talking about the semantics of words.

 

Just my two cents.

Edited September 16, 2007 by IllinoisDave (see edit history)

[SirLancelot]

Lance, you are the only person in this entire thread who has used the word "forced". You are arguing with yourself.

 

It seems to me that people have a good understanding of Communist party issues, at least at a personal level. The use of emotionalism isn't called for.

 

Every discussion that I remember about Communist party issues centers around its effect on the visa.

 

Ok, I went back and re-read the entire thread again. I grant you that no one specifically used the actual word "forced" but if you re-read the entire thread, I think honestly you have to admit the inference from several posts/posters was that the government somehow forces everyone to join the CCP if they wanted any kind of job.

 

Bottom line is that only 5% of the populous are currently members of the CCP. If any of your spouses/SO were or are lucky enough to be a member of the CCP, it only helps their lives in China. GUZ has nothing to do with a Chinese person's life when in China. Only when the Chinese person wants to immigrate to the US does GUZ become an issue.

 

Again, I'm going to submit that at the time any one is offered a CCP membership, they eagerly embrace the offer, rather than some on here have made it sound, as if people timidly and apprehensively accept the membership with fear and trepidation.

 

Dave wrote:

But I think I do remember in some past threads the fairly strong implication that people have been forced to join the Party to qualify for certain jobs. I know no one is suggesting that they were literally "forced" physically, rather "forced" or "required" out of necessity. Certainly they didn't have to take the job, but they should be able to take such a job without repercussions when it comes to the visa process.

When words like "forced" are used, it conjures up the notion of "Big Bad Commie China" forcing it's citizens to join "The Party" to make a living. In this sense I can see where it could be a sensitive subject for Lance or any of us with an affinity for the China we've come to know and love.

 

Dave, I appreciate your comments. I agree with you that they should be able to take a job without having to worry about the visa process. The problem is, I think in all circumstances, the visa applicants obtain their jobs long before they applied for a US immigration visa. At the time of their membership to the CCP, I believe they sincerely wanted it. It's only much later that their CCP membership is considered a deficit for US immigration visa processing. This is why I think it's disingenuous to claim that they were forced to accept the CCP membership, because at the time they accepted CCP membership, they were quite eager to accept it.

 

Likewise, I appreciate your comments over anti-China sentiments. I don't like unnecessary anti-Chinese sentiments, but I'm all for criticism of the Chinese government when it's valid. I have a lot of criticism for China myself. But on this issue, I think it's just disingenuous for people to blame this issue on the CCP. A Chinese person can only benefit from being in the CCP in China. There is no loss. Only as it relates to US immigration matters will a CCP membership be suddenly considered a liability.

 

I will tell you this. I know people who have turned down CCP membership because they knew they would eventually emigrate to the US. For those people, I don't think they're disingenuous. I applaud their integrity. For the rest who benefited before they knew they'd emigrate by joining the CCP and then complain afterwards only when they learn it affects their chances of obtaining an immigration visa, that is disingenuous.

 

In the end, Carl has already said that almost everyone--if not all--eventually overcome BLUE due to CCP membership. So it's not a huge problem, just a little delay before the eventual visa is issued.

[Joanne]

I feel that I understand where Lance is from and where Randy is from.

 

Lance, I concur what you said is correct. I remember similar thread before. We agree. And we both had first hand knowledge of this. Even though myself is no a CCP member, most of my friends and a lot of my relatives are.

 

However, we really want GZ to understand that in fact, CCP membership is required for certain job positions. Period. - I believer this is what Randy is talking about.

 

Since every individual is different, we should not bring unnecessary difficulty to their visa cases.

Edited September 16, 2007 by Joanne (see edit history)