Death, is it the same in China?

[danb]

Hello everyone. I hope the New Year is going well for everyone. I just recently joined this site but I have been a long time reader of this site. I like to read up on the various topics and have found a lot of useful on it. I am not sure if this is the right section to post these questions. If it belongs somewhere else I hope the moderators will move it. I wanted to know how death is handle in China with respect to legal matters. First if an American citizen(living in China with his wife) dies in China, what happens? Does the consulate in China get involve? Who issues the death certificate? The hospital or someone in the public police bureau or the American Consulate? Will/can he be buried in China or can his body be shipped back to the states. What happens to his (their) property( such as house(s), money in the bank, his pension and 401k in China and in the States? How are wills handled? Should he have one in the US and one in China? If there isn't a will what happens? I realize that most people on the site are planning their life in the US but what will happen if they change mind and decide to live in China? I think there are many good things about considering retirement/living in China. I would appreciate your thoughts and ideas on this topic. Danny

[rogerluli]

Hi Danny, My wife and I do plan on retiring in China but she will be a US citizen long before that so I think that eliminates most of the issues you asked about. She has the same rights to my property, $$$, pension, SS account as she would here. When we bought 2 apartments in China they had to be in her name anyway as she is still a Chinese citizen.

[Dan R]

Hi and welcome as a poster in CFL. I am curious as to why you would be concerned about death at this time. Laws change as well as the requirements for wills. What happens to a dead body of an American citizen in China will largely depend on the politics at the time and situation of death. The Consulates get involved if they are notified. A long term resident of China with instructions for their internment (which was prepaid and cleared) and a living spouse would be a very different situation than one who was in a fatal accident three months after arrival which killed the spouse and left no written instructions. With no instructions and an American passport on the body it would be turned over to the Consulate.

 

Death certificates are issued in the country of death unless the Consulate has reason to immediately claim the body. Actually in such cases usually there will be two certificates.

 

Whatever your wishes are for your corpse, they may or may not be carried out depending on the situation of death and how thoroughly you yourself planned for the event. This is true anywhere in the world including in your American hometown.

 

My wife and I prefer cremation. This can be performed in any country we die in with no need for transportation. The ashes if one of us survives would go to the spouse. Otherwise hers would go to her home and mine to my daughter. This instruction will need to be carried on us if it is to be followed.

 

Remember also that whatever the law is in China it is applied and enforced differently in different cities and provinces.

 

Now an interesting aside would be what happens to an American whose wife dies while he is living in a home in her name? Add to this what would happen if he has lived there long enough to have nowhere else to go. If a permanent resident I would think they could keep their status. As a WTO member China would need to address this type of inheritance.

 

A good first time question as it touches on so many legal issues. Perhaps we might hear from one of our attorney members on this. How about it King, TonyontheRock or Jgrier? Anyone have the scoop?

 

(We already know Roger has a good connection, from his earlier snafu, with powers that be. This should allow him to have his dead body treated however he likes. Now in Tibet they take it up on a mountain, hack it up and leave it for carrion birds.)

Edited January 27, 2007 by Dan R (see edit history)

[rogerluli]

(We already know Roger has a good connection, from his earlier snafu, with powers that be. This should allow him to have his dead body treated however he likes. Now in Tibet they take it up on a mountain, hack it up and leave it for carrion birds.)

 

Wow we just watched a movie about the men who protected the Tibetan antelope before they got official government protected status and anyway they showed that ritual with these lines of mourners and a priest hacking up the corpse with vultures lined up for the feast...

 

Not really sure I want to go that route but on the other hand...when you're dead you're dead...

[phantom1949]

Hi Danny, My wife and I do plan on retiring in China but she will be a US citizen long before that so I think that eliminates most of the issues you asked about. She has the same rights to my property, $$$, pension, SS account as she would here. When we bought 2 apartments in China they had to be in her name anyway as she is still a Chinese citizen.

 

Not to Hijack the post but when your wife becomes an American citizen can she still own real estate in China???

[rogerluli]

Hi Danny, My wife and I do plan on retiring in China but she will be a US citizen long before that so I think that eliminates most of the issues you asked about. She has the same rights to my property, $$$, pension, SS account as she would here. When we bought 2 apartments in China they had to be in her name anyway as she is still a Chinese citizen.

 

Not to Hijack the post but when your wife becomes an American citizen can she still own real estate in China???

 

I never imagined that would be an issue but you know I will have her check. It just doesn't seem that they are going to go back and cross-check real estate ownership and changes in citizenship...

[danb]

Hello everyone, I just got home a little while ago and was happy to see the responses. First of all I am not planning on dying anytime soon. I am hoping to spending about 100 years with my wife-to-be (YI BAI NIAN)... Is that the correct way of saying it? I was just trying to explain that I was wondering what happens to us when we pass away (legal wise) if we are in China and what type of plans we should make. I might have gotten side track just a little. Sometimes I think about too many things at once.

I guess when someone passes away in a foreign land there are a lot of things that should be considered. I have read some of the posting about owning property in China. It does not seem to be a simple thing for a foreigner to own property in China. To be truthful I am not sure how it works in the states. When I bought houses here I don't remember there being any questions about my citizenship. I think a foreigner can own a house here but I don't know it to be fact. The statement about the laws that are in effect at one's death does make sense. I know that we can not predict what thoses laws will be but we should try to plan things the best that we can. If the house is in the wife's name and government does not want to recognize you as an legal heir, what happens? Of course if the husband passes away then matters should also be planned ahead of time. Did most of the sponsers anticipated and plan for their love one's well being if something happens fatally( to the sponser) in the near future? I am thinking about life insurance that will provide for her for a certain amount of time until she fend for herself. Not sure how much that should be. Not sure if she would even want to stay in the states? If we do live in China and something happens to my wife I would like to have the option of staying in China. But If I can't inherit the house that we live in ..then what would I do? I think that 15 to 20 years down the road China's economic picture could be ( but not guaranteed) very rosy. 20 years from now I will be dipping into my retirement funds. Will things work out? No one knows but I want to try to plan the best that I can. I have heard stories about westerners who had married Thai women and that when their wife had died early. The westerners' had no claim to the property in Thailand that was in the wife's name. What's was up with that? I don't want something like this to happen to me. Sorry I got a little long winded. I guess I won't ask...if most people are planning to change citizenship to the country that they are planning to live and retire in. Perhaps in another post.... I hope everyone has a great weekend. Thanks again . Danny

P.S. Roger. your post implies that your household in China will have two American citizens. That is interesting because. That is a possiblity for me/us also but I wonder about the wife's pensions and rights for medical care in China ,..etc ...if we were both American Citizens. Aren't you worried abou that?

[rogerluli]

P.S. Roger. your post implies that your household in China will have two American citizens. That is interesting because. That is a possiblity for me/us also but I wonder about the wife's pensions and rights for medical care in China ,..etc ...if we were both American Citizens. Aren't you worried abou that?

 

Danny it sounds like your wife has some kind of gummint job in China that will pay her a pension and provide medical benefits. If that's right then you have another issue to consider because if she does become a USC she gives up all those rights I am quite sure. My wife had a small pension plan when she was a gummint worker in China and this time when we went back she had to go to the insurance office and she presented her green card and they paid her off... So my wife has no more financial benefit to remaining a Chinese citizen and in fact will enjoy more benefits by becoming a USC...

Edited January 28, 2007 by rogerluli (see edit history)

[danb]

Roger, I am not married yet. I am in the states and she is in China. We are in the process of making the arrangements.. I meant to refer to how things would be when we do get married. Sorry about the confusion. She does have one of those gummint jobs. I am still learning how things work in China. I assumed that she would receive medical benefits because she was Chinese citizen not because she is a gummint employee. I will have to ask her about this. She will be eligible for a pension a few years. I support her in getting her pension. If she is still eligible for it then if things go bad( me dying) she will always have her pension. I do not know if she changes citizenship how that would affects her pension. I will have to ask her about that also. To be truthfull we have not discussed whether she wants to change her citizenship. At this point her becoming an American citizen will only help us if we want speed up her 18 year old daughter's paperwork for immigration. We don't know what the daughter wants to do yet and when she will want to do it.

Talking to you made me realize that this a topic that needs to considered if we plan to retire in China. Or retire in the States. Or retire half the time in China and half the time in the States. It may have consequences. I work for a private company so I would think my pension and my 401K will not be affected by her or my citizenship. On the other hand I am not sure what affect of our citizenship will have on our future benefits, responsiblities, and priveleges in China or the US. I do not see me changing my citizenship even if I retire to China.

Say we both are American citizens.. will we have to get permission to live in China? Will we have to apply for a Chinese green card? ( I assume that the wife will have had to turn in her Hokou card ...spelling?... or will I have to get one?). Are these simple matters to resolve? Will we have to periodically leave China and then ask permission to enter China again? Is this what happens in the US after 10 years for a green card holder? If we (both as American citizens) have property in China what can and will happen to it when one of us dies. There are a lot of things to consider. Lucky we have time. Most things do not have to be resolved immediately. Hope everyone had a nice weekend. Danny

[rogerluli]

Roger, I am not married yet. I am in the states and she is in China. We are in the process of making the arrangements.. I meant to refer to how things would be when we do get married. Sorry about the confusion. She does have one of those gummint jobs. I am still learning how things work in China. I assumed that she would receive medical benefits because she was Chinese citizen not because she is a gummint employee. I will have to ask her about this. She will be eligible for a pension a few years. I support her in getting her pension. If she is still eligible for it then if things go bad( me dying) she will always have her pension. I do not know if she changes citizenship how that would affects her pension. I will have to ask her about that also. To be truthfull we have not discussed whether she wants to change her citizenship. At this point her becoming an American citizen will only help us if we want speed up her 18 year old daughter's paperwork for immigration. We don't know what the daughter wants to do yet and when she will want to do it.

Talking to you made me realize that this a topic that needs to considered if we plan to retire in China. Or retire in the States. Or retire half the time in China and half the time in the States. It may have consequences. I work for a private company so I would think my pension and my 401K will not be affected by her or my citizenship. On the other hand I am not sure what affect of our citizenship will have on our future benefits, responsiblities, and priveleges in China or the US. I do not see me changing my citizenship even if I retire to China.

Say we both are American citizens.. will we have to get permission to live in China? Will we have to apply for a Chinese green card? ( I assume that the wife will have had to turn in her Hokou card ...spelling?... or will I have to get one?). Are these simple matters to resolve? Will we have to periodically leave China and then ask permission to enter China again? Is this what happens in the US after 10 years for a green card holder? If we (both as American citizens) have property in China what can and will happen to it when one of us dies. There are a lot of things to consider. Lucky we have time. Most things do not have to be resolved immediately. Hope everyone had a nice weekend. Danny

 

Hukou...I believe...The complexity and changing aspect of all these issues you bring up Danny is why they get a lot of bits and bytes here regularly. You are not the only one thinking about them... But since you are still in waiting you do have time to see how things go for quite awhile... I have never heard of anyone saying they would want to give up their US citizenship although there is a poll about that topic... Of course that would mean giving up your SS benefits and medicare ( for optimists who think these benefits MAY exist in the near future) I will be receiving a state pension which I do not believe has any citizenship requirement. But I know Chinese wives here who will not become USC to protect their pensions and health benefit in China and yes it is only their job that gives them these kind of benefits in China.

[danb]

Roger, I have been checking this site out for a few years. I didn't pay much attention to the polls. I looked out the citizenship poll and also at some of the other polls. Some of them were pretty interesting reads. I am glad that you mentioned it. I will have to pay more attention to them from now on. Like I mentioned before the changing of citizenship wasn't considered that much except by me because I was just looking at options for my SO's daughter. To give up my US citizenship would be a very big decision for me.. no matter where I live. I suspect it would also be a big decision for my SO to give up her Chinese citizenship. It is a decsion that hopefully we will consider carefully. I wonder how many Chinese spouses will choose to change their citizenship.

I love America and I think it is great but I am learning that Americans are not only one who loves their country. In the past few 4 or 5 years I have become much more aware of other people's cultures and nationalism. I think before I did not give it much thought. In many ways I thought we could do no wrong. I know a bit simplistic and naive..and arrogant. A bit off of the original topic but has anyone notice Chinese's display of nationalism in the media.

I am glad that I asked the original question. With all the replies it has made me look at things more and hopefully see things clearer. Danny

[skibum]

Roger, I think the checking of citizenship will come at the airport like when a USC tries to enter China with a Chinese pp. Think computer. The same with the US. There is also checking that would be done when a visa is applied for. How do you do it?

 

Ski

[SirLancelot]

Roger, I am not married yet. I am in the states and she is in China. We are in the process of making the arrangements.. I meant to refer to how things would be when we do get married. Sorry about the confusion. She does have one of those gummint jobs. I am still learning how things work in China. I assumed that she would receive medical benefits because she was Chinese citizen not because she is a gummint employee. I will have to ask her about this. She will be eligible for a pension a few years. I support her in getting her pension. If she is still eligible for it then if things go bad( me dying) she will always have her pension. I do not know if she changes citizenship how that would affects her pension. I will have to ask her about that also. To be truthfull we have not discussed whether she wants to change her citizenship. At this point her becoming an American citizen will only help us if we want speed up her 18 year old daughter's paperwork for immigration. We don't know what the daughter wants to do yet and when she will want to do it.

Talking to you made me realize that this a topic that needs to considered if we plan to retire in China. Or retire in the States. Or retire half the time in China and half the time in the States. It may have consequences. I work for a private company so I would think my pension and my 401K will not be affected by her or my citizenship. On the other hand I am not sure what affect of our citizenship will have on our future benefits, responsiblities, and priveleges in China or the US. I do not see me changing my citizenship even if I retire to China.

Say we both are American citizens.. will we have to get permission to live in China? Will we have to apply for a Chinese green card? ( I assume that the wife will have had to turn in her Hokou card ...spelling?... or will I have to get one?). Are these simple matters to resolve? Will we have to periodically leave China and then ask permission to enter China again? Is this what happens in the US after 10 years for a green card holder? If we (both as American citizens) have property in China what can and will happen to it when one of us dies. There are a lot of things to consider. Lucky we have time. Most things do not have to be resolved immediately. Hope everyone had a nice weekend. Danny

 

Hukou...I believe...The complexity and changing aspect of all these issues you bring up Danny is why they get a lot of bits and bytes here regularly. You are not the only one thinking about them... But since you are still in waiting you do have time to see how things go for quite awhile... I have never heard of anyone saying they would want to give up their US citizenship although there is a poll about that topic... Of course that would mean giving up your SS benefits and medicare ( for optimists who think these benefits MAY exist in the near future) I will be receiving a state pension which I do not believe has any citizenship requirement. But I know Chinese wives here who will not become USC to protect their pensions and health benefit in China and yes it is only their job that gives them these kind of benefits in China.

 

Roger, it sounds like you're the "expert" to ask about these questions.

 

You seem to have lived in China for extended periods of time already. What kind of visas are you using during those stays?

 

As for as I know, it's extremely difficult for a foreigner to get a Chinese green card. There is no easy way for a lao wei to live in China for extended periods of time, but for the Z visa. And even with the Z visa, you still have to leave China at least once a year. I have NOT found a way to stay in China for longer than 365 days at a time. One must leave China after 1 year of continued residence. One is able to come back right away with the proper visa, but you can't stay in China for more than 365 days continuously.

 

Please let us know what you've discovered.

[rogerluli]

Roger, I am not married yet. I am in the states and she is in China. We are in the process of making the arrangements.. I meant to refer to how things would be when we do get married. Sorry about the confusion. She does have one of those gummint jobs. I am still learning how things work in China. I assumed that she would receive medical benefits because she was Chinese citizen not because she is a gummint employee. I will have to ask her about this. She will be eligible for a pension a few years. I support her in getting her pension. If she is still eligible for it then if things go bad( me dying) she will always have her pension. I do not know if she changes citizenship how that would affects her pension. I will have to ask her about that also. To be truthfull we have not discussed whether she wants to change her citizenship. At this point her becoming an American citizen will only help us if we want speed up her 18 year old daughter's paperwork for immigration. We don't know what the daughter wants to do yet and when she will want to do it.

Talking to you made me realize that this a topic that needs to considered if we plan to retire in China. Or retire in the States. Or retire half the time in China and half the time in the States. It may have consequences. I work for a private company so I would think my pension and my 401K will not be affected by her or my citizenship. On the other hand I am not sure what affect of our citizenship will have on our future benefits, responsiblities, and priveleges in China or the US. I do not see me changing my citizenship even if I retire to China.

Say we both are American citizens.. will we have to get permission to live in China? Will we have to apply for a Chinese green card? ( I assume that the wife will have had to turn in her Hokou card ...spelling?... or will I have to get one?). Are these simple matters to resolve? Will we have to periodically leave China and then ask permission to enter China again? Is this what happens in the US after 10 years for a green card holder? If we (both as American citizens) have property in China what can and will happen to it when one of us dies. There are a lot of things to consider. Lucky we have time. Most things do not have to be resolved immediately. Hope everyone had a nice weekend. Danny

 

Hukou...I believe...The complexity and changing aspect of all these issues you bring up Danny is why they get a lot of bits and bytes here regularly. You are not the only one thinking about them... But since you are still in waiting you do have time to see how things go for quite awhile... I have never heard of anyone saying they would want to give up their US citizenship although there is a poll about that topic... Of course that would mean giving up your SS benefits and medicare ( for optimists who think these benefits MAY exist in the near future) I will be receiving a state pension which I do not believe has any citizenship requirement. But I know Chinese wives here who will not become USC to protect their pensions and health benefit in China and yes it is only their job that gives them these kind of benefits in China.

 

Roger, it sounds like you're the "expert" to ask about these questions.

 

You seem to have lived in China for extended periods of time already. What kind of visas are you using during those stays?

 

As for as I know, it's extremely difficult for a foreigner to get a Chinese green card. There is no easy way for a lao wei to live in China for extended periods of time, but for the Z visa. And even with the Z visa, you still have to leave China at least once a year. I have NOT found a way to stay in China for longer than 365 days at a time. One must leave China after 1 year of continued residence. One is able to come back right away with the proper visa, but you can't stay in China for more than 365 days continuously.

 

Please let us know what you've discovered.

 

Moi an "EXPERT"...

You flatter me Sir Sir...

And no I have no secret strategy... When we are both USC and living in China we plan to make a stop in Hong Kong or Macau on one of our seasonal moves and buy new Z visas. Furthermore I have never lived in China either, only spent about 90 days over 4 trips there, but on every trip we did quite a bit of traveling... I think any attempted "game" of dual citizenship would end in failure and a Chinese green card under current laws is also out of the realm of possibility...

[sleepless in Houston&CQ]

Darn!!!!

Someone CALLED Roggie an Expert?

That has to be a first and should go down in CFL history books.

O well he has been called worst names than that before.

After all he is from ChezWizConSin and they have names for

everyone and everything but, some how Expert is NOT one of those

common words use!

Most words/names use when referring to Roggit ends up on the cutting floor in Dons office.

 

JMO

Bobby

Edited February 6, 2007 by donahso (see edit history)