Questions - Questions

[phantom1949]

Phantom,

You like to play with fire though you don't realize it. Shenzhen is famous for many things, mosty bad. You need to know two things: What is her education and what is her job? Please post a reply and I'll say more.....

 

 

She has a college degree and is a CPA. Her Chinese husband cheated on her and she dovorced him, and she then married an American in China who wrote her afterwards and told her he went back with his old girlfriend and sent her divorce papers. So I guess we could stereo type both ways.

 

On the other hand I was married back in 2000 to a wonderful women form Cambodia. She was a naturalized American living in LA and said she wanted a relationship where her husband did not cheat on her. Now while I never did and was very much in love with her, I made the mistake of thinking that since she wanted me to be faithful, that she would be. Turns out her logic in life was that she could cheat on me as long as she kept it a secret. But she was not that good at keeping a secret.

 

So, seriously, I think Nicole has trust issues, but then so do I.

 

I read an article that said to be careful of the Beijing women......and lets not even get started on Nanning.

 

We all talk to a stranger on the internet hoping for the best but we are taking a risk. Unless you can spend a year being with and getting to know someone, anything long distance is a risk and you hope for the best. There is a post here about one guy whose wife 2-3 months after her getting a green card wants a divorce and seems pretty nasty.

 

When I was dating the woman I married back in 2000, it was so wonderful. We talked every day for hours on the telephone, and wrote e-mails and IM'd each other and visited each other for weeks at a time. Yet while she seemed sincere, it was all a game to her. I loved her deeply but the hurt of her needing other men was greater then the love. It lasted 15 months and breaking up with her was the hardest thing I ever did.

 

I read e-mails that were sent to me or posts on this site about being careful about this or that. AND WE ALL NEED TO BE Careful. But not blind. One person said what I was feeling was akin to a combination of puppy love and maybe more. And I think he is right. We Nicole and I meet, I want it to be magical (the puppy love syndrom) but by spending time together and talking and getting to know each other, and trying to keep my head on straight, I will anaylze and also hope for the best.

 

None of us, whether American or Chinese want to get hurt. But there is no magic test or pill or potion to say who is sincere and who is playing games.

 

I reflect back on my prior relationships in the dating stage and there were always signs (that I ignored). I will look for and not ignore them this time. But having said that, it does not mean that I am not optimistic.

 

If I am wrong, let me know........

[phantom1949]

Lawrence,

 

You will do just fine.

 

Rawknee

What a life, shouts I

 

 

Hopefully

 

[ct_shore2000]

Let me clarify what I said earlier. I asked you things like what her job is and her education for a reason. As far as what Juette says, I cannot condemn every Shenzhen girl. However, I lived in Shenzhen so I know just how much I can condemn.. As a matter of fact, I just returned from there again today, which is why I am late replying.

First, it's very good your girl is a CPA. That means she has some education. I cannot stress how important this is. You mentioned that some people said you cannot trust Beijing girls and some cannot trust Nanning girls etc. This is taking it a bit too far and not justified.

But there are two distinct classes in China. And the breakdown is not really based on city or province, but it is based on whether you are from a city (any city) or the countryside. In America, we view the "countryside" as a scenic, less populated area filled with easy going people; but people who are at least educated as much as anyone else. However, in China the countryside is filled with people with little or no education. Many places in the countryside are dangerous and have high crime rates. This is a way of life in many places. City people in China, if they are born and raised in the city, are typically more educated. Many countryside people go to the city to work. Every waiter, waitress, and almost any menial job you can think of is held by someone from the countryside. They are not given any respect whatsoever. If you even say thank you to one of them they get very happy very quickly and sometimes even shocked. If one Chinese talks with another Chinese, they will know right away who is from the city and who is from the countryside. Unless you live in China for a while, most westerners will not know this. Why is this important? Well, everyone knows how much Chinese love things like karaoke. If you go to China, there is a karaoke on every block, sometimes more. But Chinese karaoke is simply prostitution with a little singing. And where do they find enough girls to stock all the karaoke places? Yes, the countryside. So, within the big cities, there are two groups of people. A man from Beijing or Shanghai would not marry a girl from the countryside. They look on them a being prostitutes. So what does this mean for you and for us? Many uneducated countryside girls want to meet and marry a foreigner to improve their life. But at the same time, they lead very undesirable lives. So they will lie about where they are from and what they do for work. The more professional and higher educated girl you find, the better your chances of finding someone who is not one of these. It is tougher for someone with no education to lie about being a doctor that it is to lie about lesser educated positions. (Beware of girls who say they majored in Chinese. Also, beware of girls in their 20's or 30's who say they are bank vice-presidents.) Another thing to consider that is a more recent development: the Chinese economy is very good now and many educated Chinese are doing very well. Many of these who 5 or 10 years ago would have wanted to come to America now would rather stay in China. Life is good for them now. So you have to be a little inquisitive about the girls who want to come to America today. The good ones who do want to usually have reasons that are not economically related. In a nutshell, unless you are familiar with Chinese culture, the more educated a girl, the better off you are.

Now, about Shenzhen and Juette's statement. The Hong Kong government this year estimated that 80% of all the children in Shenzhen are illegitimate. Why would that be? Understand that Shenzhen is an invented city. Before 1980 it was just a small forgettable village. but since it borders Hong Kong the mainland government thought it would be a good place to put a trade zone. So now there is a city where there was once nothing. No building in Shenzhen is older than 1980. It is a really new city. However, it is an immigrant city. Since it was a made up city, the whole population of Shenzhen is people from all over China who go there to find work. If someone says they are from Shenzhen, they are lying. Perhaps they live in Shenzhen, but they are from somewhere else. Now here's why the illegitimacy rate is so high. Shenzhen has the same cost of living as mainland China (relatively speaking). Everything is cheap. Hong Kong however has a higher cost of living but it's money has much more buying power. Someone of modest means in Hong Kong can live richly in Shenzhen. So, it's become common practice for Hong Kong businessmen to go to Shenzhen and set up a second home complete with a second wife and family. (Remember Jackie Chan did this and it made the news a short while back). This is not an obscure practice. Many girls go to Shenzhen specifically to find a Hong Kong man and be his second wife. The competition among girls for this is quite fierce. You will find soem of the most beautiful young Chinese girls in Shenzhen with hideously ugly old Hong Kong men. Life for a second wife can be very good. My apartment building in Shenzhen was filled with these second wives and their kids.

However, many second wives are always looking for a better opportunity. And if you are not careful, it could be you.

Seriously though, you seem ok with this girl's education.

About the other problem you had with the girl from the other Asian country. You will also have that problem with many Chinese. As much as no one likes to talk about religion here, every Christian knows "Thou shalt not commit adultry." The only problem is, Christians think everyone thinks the same way. Well, Buddhism does not have that for a commandment. Too many Chinese (men and women) have affairs on the side. As long as no one finds out, everyone seems to have face and no one cares. Of all the Chinese women I have met, every single one without exception said their husbands cheated on them. Just remember though, that you are only hearing one side of the story. I've known many Chinese women who cheat on their husbands. Should this tell you not to get involved with Chinese women or men? No, because there are some good ones. The only problem is you have to discern who is who.

Unfortunately for a westerner that is not always easy.

In your case, especially since you already had trouble with one girl and at least one other American had trouble with your current girl, it would not be out of line for you to ask for a copy of the divorce papers (actually you will need it for a fiance visa). And then look up the other American and ask him what happened. I think you will be smart enough to know if the guy is a scum or if some issue really existed. But you will save yourself a lot of headache.

(And if anyone thinks I am being too hard on Chinese girls or Shenzhen girls, I was burned twice, once by an educated girl and once by a supposed educated girl. My current fiance lives in...yes, Shenzhen. But I met her in the US and have lived with her a long time in the US and China and know her enough to make my choice.)

[SirLancelot]

Shenzhen has the same cost of living as mainland China (relatively speaking). Everything is cheap. Hong Kong however has a higher cost of living but it's money has much more buying power. Someone of modest means in Hong Kong can live richly in Shenzhen. So, it's become common practice for Hong Kong businessmen to go to Shenzhen and set up a second home complete with a second wife and family. (Remember Jackie Chan did this and it made the news a short while back). This is not an obscure practice. Many girls go to Shenzhen specifically to find a Hong Kong man and be his second wife. The competition among girls for this is quite fierce. You will find soem of the most beautiful young Chinese girls in Shenzhen with hideously ugly old Hong Kong men. Life for a second wife can be very good. My apartment building in Shenzhen was filled with these second wives and their kids.

(And if anyone thinks I am being too hard on Chinese girls or Shenzhen girls, I was burned twice, once by an educated girl and once by a supposed educated girl. My current fiance lives in...yes, Shenzhen. But I met her in the US and have lived with her a long time in the US and China and know her enough to make my choice.)

 

Interesting post. Lots of generalizations and stereotyping.

 

I'd like to comment on a few points you made:

Shenzhen has the same cost of living as mainland China (relatively speaking). Everything is cheap. Hong Kong however has a higher cost of living but it's money has much more buying power.

 

Incorrect. Currency exchange between HKD and RMB is right about 1 to 1 now. So actually, one HKD is worth just about one RMB. The HK money has no more buying power than RMB--none at all. What I think you mean is that the average HK worker earns more than the average Mainland worker, and thus what they earn yearly goes a longer way in the Mainland than HK. That I can agree with, but your assertion that HK money has more buying power than the RMB is flat out wrong. It's in fact 1 to 1 exchange rate right now.

 

Someone of modest means in Hong Kong can live richly in Shenzhen.

 

Hmm... someone of very modest means in American can live richly in Shenzhen. Were you such an American--one of quite modest means and that's why you went to SZ to live a better life?

 

You will find soem of the most beautiful young Chinese girls in Shenzhen with hideously ugly old Hong Kong men.

 

Hmm... again, this sounds no different than American men. You will find some of the most beautiful young Chinese girls in all of China with hideously ugly old American men. Do I have this wrong? Might you be one of these American men?

 

And if anyone thinks I am being too hard on Chinese girls or Shenzhen girls, I was burned twice, once by an educated girl and once by a supposed educated girl

 

So your advise has been to suggest everyone look for an educated or more educated Chinese girl and to stay away from Shenzhen. But in your own disclosure, you state you've dated an educated girl and yet were burned by her. So what's the advantage of dating an educated girl? Using your own disclosed information, it doesn't sound like you got a better deal by dating a more educated girl. (Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with the idea, but the proof you used to justify that this is a better idea is lacking.) And then you continue on to state your current SO is from SZ but you met her in the US. So? What does meeting your SZ SO from the States have anything to do with it? Didn't she come to the States from SZ? Couldn't she have been one of the SZ KTV girls you've been warning others about? I just find it ironic that your SZ girl worked out for you--in your mind--but you need to warn others about SZ girls? Very odd.

 

You're casting wild aspersions directed at just about all Chinese--be they ugly old men from HK or young uneducated girls from the countryside. While some of what you say may be have a ring of truth to them, it is still nevertheless very insulting, discriminating and inflammatory.

 

Honestly, I don't find your comments all that helpful for anyone. And you're certain to provoke reactions from women from SZ or CFL members with SZ SOs. (I, however, am not one of them as my SO is natively born from Shanghai, but I do find your comments generally quite insulting towards all Chinese people.

[Am4wag]

I took one with me the first time.Ofcourse,I knew her size from a friend of her's here in the states.But if I was to do it again,I would wait until I got there first,then buy one there.As stated earlier,it would be more fun shopping for one together.From what I could see,prices are generally cheaper there;especially the fact that bargaining/negotiating price is way more tolerable/flexible there.You ought to see the engagement ring SHE bought me.OMG! Granted,I got the ring I gave her from a friend of mine here in the states who happens to be a wholesaler of fine jewelry,the gold in china is by far superior than what you will find here.NEVER SEND JEWELRY.If you do take one,have it on your person during the flight.Best of luck to you man,you're in for an experience YOU WILL NEVER FORGET;HER TOO.

[phantom1949]

Interesting insight - thank you.

 

I forgot to say she owns her apartment there. Her family does live somewhere else but I will have to locate where.

 

We are taking it slow and having had bad experiences I do reflect, look for problems and read a lot here. I think that Nicole also wants to take it slower and not let the heat of the moment cause us to make mistakes.

 

I do appreciate your taking the time to give your thoughts and experiences.

 

Time will tell. Thanks again!!!

[NUWORLD]

Sirlancelot. Very well said!!! I think you said what every other CFL member is feeling

about now. Even though my SO is not from SZ, If she would have seen this last post from

ct shore2000 she would have freeked out!!!

 

 

ct shore2000.

The way i see it, You are looking at this through a oneway mirrrow.

everyone here on CLF is looking for the love of there lives and many have done just that and are living a wonderful and happy life.

Love is what you make it, And what you make it, Is what it is!!!

Love has nothing to do with education and education has nothing to do with love.

No matter where you live in our big world!!

 

Mike and Hong ( Chongqing )

Edited December 12, 2006 by donahso (see edit history)

[phantom1949]

Again, I am a newbie and still in the learning stage. Well, I look at life as a learning experience so when we stop learning it is becuase we are dead.

 

I think everyones comments and thoughts are helpful and insightful. When we meet our SO in China, it is after we have written and maybe spoken to each other for 2,3, 6 months or longer. But how well to we really know each other and what is in each others minds and hearts?

 

While I consider myself a "Hopeful Romantic" being on this site I see marriages fall by the wayside on a regular basis - and I am new here. One man's SO asked for a divorce 2-3 months after getting her green card. Now some said her asking for a divorce was a knee jurk reaction, but reading about Chinese culture, it does not seem to me that this is how a SO would respond unless it was on her mind. Maybe the relationship was one sided and she was just unhappy for the two years but that means they had no communication.

 

When I started on this site, I would read things that were just plain scary and then when people would write to give me advice, well.......

 

Hearing both sides of the coin, being optimistic and pisamistic, gives one food for thought and can either calm you down and raise real red flags.

 

When I was on the site where I met my SO, the ladies would write "come to China for a love tour", or they wanted someone who would love them AND their children, or they wanted to come to America and have a child or two or they wanted you to have a house or how much will WE travel...... Some would send their phone numbers and addresses without you asking for them. Some would write how much they loved you, but they had never met you??

 

I use all comments as a gauge and try to got through the minefield as Nicole and I move along. As for the education issue and both agree and disagree. There is an old movie starring william Holden called "The World of Suzy Wong" and while it was set in Japan, it could just have been made in China or any other country.

 

What a woman does is not necessary indiciative of whether or not she will truly love you and what she wants. I think what ct_shore2000 was alluding to was if the SO desparately wanted and needed to leave China to have a good life, or if she was educated and had a good life there then her motives were more for finding a partner.

 

With Nicole, I see the more I act like a pushy American, the more she withdraws and the more I act slower and with respect the more she opens up.

 

It took a few weeks before Nicole was comfortable in giving me her address and she has not yet given me her phone number (although she is thinking about it).

 

What are are doing is the bleeding of two cultures and not the Americanization of your SO. So in this light, I think all opinions are valid.

 

The hardest thing for a person to know without living with your SO or knowing her for a long period of time is what is in her heart and what is in her mind. And she will not know what is in yours.

 

The key is going into a relationship with your eyes open and thinking with your head (the one on your shoulders - No disrespect intended but men will be men).

 

So I think all opinions are valid and should be welcome. It is for each of us to wisely figure out how we develop our relationship with our SO, what we are looking for and what our SO wants as well.

 

Nicole and I have been speaking since the end of September and I hope to plan a trip in the next few months. While I will be cautious, I am very happy with how things are developing and will continue to take things slow and hopefully do things right.

 

What I will say for sure, is that without the insight and help from the members here, I would surely have done things wrong and made mistakes that I will now not make.

 

So I welcome all comments and insight.

 

Thank you everyone.

[Juette]

Sirlancelot, I too find CTSHORE's diatribe insulting. He seems to think he has everything figured out, but actually has nothing figured out. He does not even heed his own advice. Or perhaps only he is smart enough to shift through the "so called" bad Shenzhen girls to find a good one. I find his comments that equate uneducated, country girls with prostitution to be moronic. Sure, we all know that some girls from the country end up at KTV bars, but I am quite sure some city girls also can be found there. Furthermore, his logic that he has the right to condemn Shenzhen women because he has lived there is nonsensical at best. I sincerely doubt that he has dated a representative sample of Shenzhen women to draw these ridiculous conclusions. If he had, he would not have time to be pontificating on CFL.

 

Personally, I think CTSHORE'S negative experiences have grossly influenced his opinions.

[ct_shore2000]

Well, first of all, though one HK dollar gets you about 1 rmb, you can buy a bowl of noodle in Shenzhen for about 8 bucks. In Hong Kong it's about 20. You want to buy an apartment in HK? It will be about 10 times the cost of a comparable one in Shenzhen. HK salaries are much more to keep pace. The point I was trying to make is that when someone from HK goes to Shenzhen, they are considered richer. Everything I said was not made up by me and is not just my opinion. The HK government has come out and said this is a problem. The people who clued me in to this are all Chinese, and not from one small group of friends but from many all over China. I lived there and I saw it.

If you beg to differ, check this out:

 

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/...,108014,00.html

 

And as far as me being with a girl who lives in Shenzhen, you forgot I did not condemn every Shenzhen girl. I know some good ones. I am just saying that Shenzhen has such a unique reputation for being a "second wife city" that you need to use some extra caution. If the original poster said his girl was a CPA in Shenzhen and nothing more I would say no big deal. But when he mentioned that she was married to an American before and for such a short time, it's looking like this girl has a little "history" that should be looked at. There is nothing wrong with prudence. There could be a very good reason he divorced her so quickly. Why is everyone here so quick to blame the man all the time? If he called the ex-husband and talked with him about it he could learn a lot. If the guy had no hard facts about anything and was just toying with this girl I would think you could pick that up from the conversation. But let's face it, this girl is divorced twice. Even if you were in America with an American, that would urge some caution.

As far as education, it was Chinese friends telling me this is what I should look for. Yes, I was burned by an educated girl, but the way I was burned was more a result of personal differences. She wasn't sleeping around making money as a karaoke girl prostitute like the uneducated one. My point is your chances of finding a good wife are much better if she has some education and is not right out of the village. Since Chinese culture is so different from American culture, there has to be some way of discerning how two people from such different worlds could be a good match. If not education or employment, then what?

Maybe you think I have something against Chinese and Chinese culture. No way. I lived in China by choice. I am just giving the same warnings passed along to me by the natives who know the culture. My girl is a great girl and I couldn't be happier. I know a lot of other girls who've made people happy too. But guess what? I also know a lot who caused a lot of heartaches of the kind I would not wish on anyone. So condemn me if you wish, but there is nothing wrong with me telling anyone to be careful and passing on the same warnings I received.

[SirLancelot]

This post and the warnings it carries with it is much better and gentler in tone than your previous one. I would be the last one to suggest against caution, but you were disparaging a big faction of Chinese people, rather than simply giving helpful warnings.

 

With regards to HK people being more well off, I completely fail to see the relevance. What's the slightest difference between a perceived more well off HK man verses a perceived more well off US man? You don't think most on CFL are just your basic middle class average Joe? You think everyone on here is truly wealthy in the US sense? Many folks on here are not rich at all but perceived to be rich in China. Likewise with the HK men. With the exception of having a wife in HK and concurrently a second wife mistress in SZ, I don't see a bit of difference between older HK men going after young Chinese women and older American men going after young Chinese women. Both can offer a better financial life to the Chinese women--and that's what matters the most to them.

 

If you are so appalled at these Chinese girls who agree and voluntarily seek out these relationships with HK men, then why did you even go looking in China? You could have stayed in the US and went through the pick-up-chick-at-random-bar-and-take-home-to-hump routine that's so prevalent here. Maybe these drunk and friendly American women are more virtuous in your eyes.

 

Lastly, you continue to harp on KTV girls. Do you know any of them very well? Do you know their life stories? Do you know what factors led them to do what they do now? For many of them--if not the vast majority--it's because their families are very poor and they have no choice but to go out to make some money to send home to support the siblings who need money for education. They aren't doing it to buy drugs or to buy a BMW to support a lavish lifestyle. The vast majority of the KTV girls haven't finished high school, so there's not a lot of other job opportunities for them.

 

My point is NOT to defend their profession. Almost everyone (including the Chinese) agrees that prostitution is not an admirable profession. But I don't think you understand at all why they do what they do. Granted, most of these girls aren't forced into being KTV girls, but their very poor and dire family economic situations compels them to do something to help their family. Very few girls are there because they're genuine nympho "sluts" who can't get enough sex.

 

Your constant trash talk of them makes me wonder if you've been had by one of these KTV girls and that is why you're full of resentment towards them. Everyone who patronizes a KTV would know that you don't find your next wife there.

 

 

Well, first of all, though one HK dollar gets you about 1 rmb, you can buy a bowl of noodle in Shenzhen for about 8 bucks. In Hong Kong it's about 20. You want to buy an apartment in HK? It will be about 10 times the cost of a comparable one in Shenzhen. HK salaries are much more to keep pace. The point I was trying to make is that when someone from HK goes to Shenzhen, they are considered richer. Everything I said was not made up by me and is not just my opinion. The HK government has come out and said this is a problem. The people who clued me in to this are all Chinese, and not from one small group of friends but from many all over China. I lived there and I saw it.

If you beg to differ, check this out:

 

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/...,108014,00.html

 

And as far as me being with a girl who lives in Shenzhen, you forgot I did not condemn every Shenzhen girl. I know some good ones. I am just saying that Shenzhen has such a unique reputation for being a "second wife city" that you need to use some extra caution. If the original poster said his girl was a CPA in Shenzhen and nothing more I would say no big deal. But when he mentioned that she was married to an American before and for such a short time, it's looking like this girl has a little "history" that should be looked at. There is nothing wrong with prudence. There could be a very good reason he divorced her so quickly. Why is everyone here so quick to blame the man all the time? If he called the ex-husband and talked with him about it he could learn a lot. If the guy had no hard facts about anything and was just toying with this girl I would think you could pick that up from the conversation. But let's face it, this girl is divorced twice. Even if you were in America with an American, that would urge some caution.

As far as education, it was Chinese friends telling me this is what I should look for. Yes, I was burned by an educated girl, but the way I was burned was more a result of personal differences. She wasn't sleeping around making money as a karaoke girl prostitute like the uneducated one. My point is your chances of finding a good wife are much better if she has some education and is not right out of the village. Since Chinese culture is so different from American culture, there has to be some way of discerning how two people from such different worlds could be a good match. If not education or employment, then what?

Maybe you think I have something against Chinese and Chinese culture. No way. I lived in China by choice. I am just giving the same warnings passed along to me by the natives who know the culture. My girl is a great girl and I couldn't be happier. I know a lot of other girls who've made people happy too. But guess what? I also know a lot who caused a lot of heartaches of the kind I would not wish on anyone. So condemn me if you wish, but there is nothing wrong with me telling anyone to be careful and passing on the same warnings I received.

Edited December 13, 2006 by SirLancelot (see edit history)

[phantom1949]

Well, first of all, though one HK dollar gets you about 1 rmb, you can buy a bowl of noodle in Shenzhen for about 8 bucks. In Hong Kong it's about 20. You want to buy an apartment in HK? It will be about 10 times the cost of a comparable one in Shenzhen. HK salaries are much more to keep pace. The point I was trying to make is that when someone from HK goes to Shenzhen, they are considered richer. Everything I said was not made up by me and is not just my opinion. The HK government has come out and said this is a problem. The people who clued me in to this are all Chinese, and not from one small group of friends but from many all over China. I lived there and I saw it.

If you beg to differ, check this out:

 

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/...,108014,00.html

 

And as far as me being with a girl who lives in Shenzhen, you forgot I did not condemn every Shenzhen girl. I know some good ones. I am just saying that Shenzhen has such a unique reputation for being a "second wife city" that you need to use some extra caution. If the original poster said his girl was a CPA in Shenzhen and nothing more I would say no big deal. But when he mentioned that she was married to an American before and for such a short time, it's looking like this girl has a little "history" that should be looked at. There is nothing wrong with prudence. There could be a very good reason he divorced her so quickly. Why is everyone here so quick to blame the man all the time? If he called the ex-husband and talked with him about it he could learn a lot. If the guy had no hard facts about anything and was just toying with this girl I would think you could pick that up from the conversation. But let's face it, this girl is divorced twice. Even if you were in America with an American, that would urge some caution.

As far as education, it was Chinese friends telling me this is what I should look for. Yes, I was burned by an educated girl, but the way I was burned was more a result of personal differences. She wasn't sleeping around making money as a karaoke girl prostitute like the uneducated one. My point is your chances of finding a good wife are much better if she has some education and is not right out of the village. Since Chinese culture is so different from American culture, there has to be some way of discerning how two people from such different worlds could be a good match. If not education or employment, then what?

Maybe you think I have something against Chinese and Chinese culture. No way. I lived in China by choice. I am just giving the same warnings passed along to me by the natives who know the culture. My girl is a great girl and I couldn't be happier. I know a lot of other girls who've made people happy too. But guess what? I also know a lot who caused a lot of heartaches of the kind I would not wish on anyone. So condemn me if you wish, but there is nothing wrong with me telling anyone to be careful and passing on the same warnings I received.

 

 

CT:

 

I do not appreciate your comments and I think you have crossed the line AGAIN. You assume my SO has a bad past and that the word of the American is worth more then her word, and personally I think you are wrong and an apology is in order. The reality is she did nothing wrong. The American came to China, married her and then went back with his old girlfriend in the USA. Your assuming it was her fault is one sided at best. If you have such a distrust of Shenzhen women, then get out of the city.

 

As for your comments on divorce, I believe that in the USA, 30% of all american women have cheated on their husbands and the percent of men cheating on their wifes is even higher. As for multiple divorces, how many men here have never been divorced???

 

Before we can give any validity to your comments, maybe we need to check you out??? Since you have been married before and with other women from Shenzhen, I guess we should say there is something wrong with YOU. Maybe we should call your Ex Wives to judge you before we give anything you say value??? I am not attacking you, but you are showing the there is truth to the saying that when you "assume", you make an "ASS" out of your self.

 

I do not mind generalized comments but your latest post is an unwarranted and bigited attack on my SO, and it is not appreciated. you say your girl is great and if someone attacked her without knowing all the facts and publicly, I would hope you would defend her. I am doing no different here.

 

Again, I think you crossed the line and an apology is due.

 

There is a big difference between giving insight and attacking someone based upon your invalid assumptions and bad experience. I had respect for your first two comments, but this last one is way out of line, and if you cannot see it, then I rgive novlaue to what you say othe rhten itis hot hair. Your living in China does not make you an expert on the Chinese people. If you had any class, and felt you needed to express yourself in the manner you did, an "educated" person who had class would have made the comments in a PM and not a public like this. The moderator in the post right above yours said NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. Instead of you showing ANY CLASS, you have shown the type of person you are. You owe my SO an apology - public here on the board after attacking her as you did. I was the only one defending your right to make your comments, but now you have gone to far.

 

Say what you want now as it will not matter for I have lost all respect for your comments.

 

To the moderator, I apologize, but I will not allow anyone to attack my SO as CT has and believe everyone here would do the same. I hope you can understand.

 

Happy Holidays.

 

Lawrence

Edited December 13, 2006 by phantom1949 (see edit history)

[NUWORLD]

Well, first of all, though one HK dollar gets you about 1 rmb, you can buy a bowl of noodle in Shenzhen for about 8 bucks. In Hong Kong it's about 20. You want to buy an apartment in HK? It will be about 10 times the cost of a comparable one in Shenzhen. HK salaries are much more to keep pace. The point I was trying to make is that when someone from HK goes to Shenzhen, they are considered richer. Everything I said was not made up by me and is not just my opinion. The HK government has come out and said this is a problem. The people who clued me in to this are all Chinese, and not from one small group of friends but from many all over China. I lived there and I saw it.

If you beg to differ, check this out:

 

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/...,108014,00.html

 

And as far as me being with a girl who lives in Shenzhen, you forgot I did not condemn every Shenzhen girl. I know some good ones. I am just saying that Shenzhen has such a unique reputation for being a "second wife city" that you need to use some extra caution. If the original poster said his girl was a CPA in Shenzhen and nothing more I would say no big deal. But when he mentioned that she was married to an American before and for such a short time, it's looking like this girl has a little "history" that should be looked at. There is nothing wrong with prudence. There could be a very good reason he divorced her so quickly. Why is everyone here so quick to blame the man all the time? If he called the ex-husband and talked with him about it he could learn a lot. If the guy had no hard facts about anything and was just toying with this girl I would think you could pick that up from the conversation. But let's face it, this girl is divorced twice. Even if you were in America with an American, that would urge some caution.

As far as education, it was Chinese friends telling me this is what I should look for. Yes, I was burned by an educated girl, but the way I was burned was more a result of personal differences. She wasn't sleeping around making money as a karaoke girl prostitute like the uneducated one. My point is your chances of finding a good wife are much better if she has some education and is not right out of the village. Since Chinese culture is so different from American culture, there has to be some way of discerning how two people from such different worlds could be a good match. If not education or employment, then what?

Maybe you think I have something against Chinese and Chinese culture. No way. I lived in China by choice. I am just giving the same warnings passed along to me by the natives who know the culture. My girl is a great girl and I couldn't be happier. I know a lot of other girls who've made people happy too. But guess what? I also know a lot who caused a lot of heartaches of the kind I would not wish on anyone. So condemn me if you wish, but there is nothing wrong with me telling anyone to be careful and passing on the same warnings I received.

 

 

CT:

 

I do not appreciate your comments and I think you have crossed the line AGAIN. You assume my SO has a bad past and that the word of the American is worth more then her word, and personally I think you are wrong and an apology is in order. The reality is she did nothing wrong. The American came to China, married her and then went back with his old girlfriend in the USA. Your assuming it was her fault is one sided at best. If you have such a distrust of Shenzhen women, then get out of the city.

 

As for your comments on divorce, I believe that in the USA, 30% of all american women have cheated on their husbands and the percent of men cheating on their wifes is even higher. As for multiple divorces, how many men here have never been divorced???

 

Before we can give any validity to your comments, maybe we need to check you out??? Since you have been married before and with other women from Shenzhen, I guess we should say there is something wrong with YOU. Maybe we should call your Ex Wives to judge you before we give anything you say value??? I am not attacking you, but you are showing the there is truth to the saying that when you "assume", you make an "ASS" out of your self.

 

I do not mind generalized comments but your latest post is an unwarranted and bigited attack on my SO, and it is not appreciated. you say your girl is great and if someone attacked her without knowing all the facts and publicly, I would hope you would defend her. I am doing no different here.

 

Again, I think you crossed the line and an apology is due.

 

There is a big difference between giving insight and attacking someone based upon your invalid assumptions and bad experience. I had respect for your first two comments, but this last one is way out of line, and if you cannot see it, then I rgive novlaue to what you say othe rhten itis hot hair. Your living in China does not make you an expert on the Chinese people. If you had any class, and felt you needed to express yourself in the manner you did, an "educated" person who had class would have made the comments in a PM and not a public like this. The moderator in the post right above yours said NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. Instead of you showing ANY CLASS, you have shown the type of person you are. You owe my SO an apology - public here on the board after attacking her as you did. I was the only one defending your right to make your comments, but now you have gone to far.

 

Say what you want now as it will not matter for I have lost all respect for your comments.

 

To the moderator, I apologize, but I will not allow anyone to attack my SO as CT has and believe everyone here would do the same. I hope you can understand.

 

Happy Holidays.

 

Lawrence

 

well said lawrence!!

I don't think i could have said it better!

I agree with you 100%

As i said in my lasy post about this subject.

At the time my SO did not see it, But now she has!!!!!

I'm not going into what she said, But my SO and I, Both agree.

Lawrence and your SO deserve a APOLOGY!!

We also think everyone here on CFL deserve a APOLOGY too!!

I'm not going to make any comments about CT.

I'm playing by the rules here and i respect everyone here on CFL.

This is a place for everyone in the world to get advise and all the help they need

to get though this long and stressful process to bring the love of there lives together.

I know I'm the new guy here but i feel as though both myself and my SO belong to a wonderful and caring family that cares for us too.

I have learn so much from everyone here on CFL.

I do feel CT did cross the line and everything should have been said through a PM.

With that being said, I hope lawrence and his SO get that APOLOGY!!

 

 

Also To the moderator, I apologize too, I would have said the same thing and I'm sure many other members feel the same as i do, I'm sorry and i apologize!!

[phantom1949]

NUWORLD:

 

Thanks for your kind words. I so not need an applogy for myself, but I would not speak in such a disrespectful manny to anyone or their SO and do not appreciate CT talking that way about my SO, especially since he does not even know her.

 

Like most chinese ladies she is very beautiful but what I am learning about her is that she is even more beautiful on the inside then the outside.

 

I felt bad aftwe writing what I did as I mean no disrespect to anyone and I am also new and came here for friendship, help and insight. But since I do care about Nicole how can I not defend her honor!!!

 

Well thank you again!!

 

Lawrence

 

PS: I am really happy I found this site. It is teaching me things about the difference in cultures; raising issuing with a diverse range of answers; raising and answering fears and concerns I (I am sure we all) have. And in general helping me get through the process.

 

There are so many more quesitons I have that I can use help on. But I guess I need a break now from opening up too much here. I may just go back to PM's for a bit.

 

Again, Happy Holidays to everyone!!!

Edited December 13, 2006 by phantom1949 (see edit history)

[ct_shore2000]

Geez.... I don't know what to say.

First, to SirLancelot. Thank you for seeing that my tone is better because I never intended to insult anyone or just rant and rave. That is why I keep replying to this instead of moving on with other topics here. I don't hate anyone. I know at this point it is irrelevant, but just one more thing about HK and Shenzhen. I see what you're saying about a HK man vs. and American man. Both are perceived as well off. I guess the big difference is that HK men who already have a wife flock to Shenzhen to hook up with the many girls there who seek them out knowing they are already married. Most westerners I know are looking for their one and only. Also, I am not sure you are implying that a Chinese girl would favor a westerner over a HK guy (forgive me if I misunderstood you), but that would give us westerners too much credit. There are a couple reasons that some Chinese girls prefer to be with Asian men. One is English. Not many Chinese speak English in Shenzhen especially compared to Shanghai or Beijing. But I think I see your point comparing HK men to westerners. Usually though us westerners are there to find a marriage, HK men are there to add on another marriage.

As far as KTV girls go, sadly I've known many, but luckily not in the Biblical sense. At first I thought just like you that they were doing it because their options were limited. It was pretty eye opening for me to learn that most of those I met actually liked what they did, not for the sex, but for the money. The money they make is incredible compared to what legitimate workers make, and the hours are less, and they get to hang out with rich guys who not only pay them well but also have no problem taking them and their friends out for dinner or for fun things later. You are right when you say we don't look for wives at the KTV. The only problem is that they will never tell you that is what they do. And chances are, most westerners would have a difficult time finding out. If I trashed KTV girls, it would be for trying to hide this while courting a potential husband. Honesty is the best policy.

 

To phantom1949, I would suggest you read through my posts and try to find one spot where I specifically said your SO was no good. I did not. As a matter of fact I said it was major points in her favor that she was educated and was a CPA! I guess you didn't see that part.

I was only urging caution. Please refer to your own post of Dec 4 2006, 12:57 PM.

You mentioned your previous relationship which you thought was going so well ony to be let down. That hurts a lot. You also mentioned your other marriage to another Asian woman. I would think these two experiences would tell you that no matter how emotional things are, you should always be prudent to insure your relationship is in fact the right one. As far as your SO, she was married before. No problem. But guess what? This is not an insult to you or your SO, but this is fact: You only know one side of the story. Good or bad, you only know one side. That is truth, not an insult. I never said your SO was to blame, but then again I never said her ex was to blame either. And here is one more fact: since your SO was divorced twice, you only know one side to two stories. Then again, I am not assigning blame to anyone in any relationship, but you nor anyone here can argue that you only know one side to two stories. My point to all this is that after your previous marriage to someone from a different culture and your other relationship that you were mistaken about, is it really a bad thing to just try and find out more about your SO before making what will be a permanent commitment of your heart (and your assets). Why is it such an insult to try to find out the other sides of the story you don't know, espcially since you've been burned not once but twice? And your SO should not feel insulted if you do this either. She would want you to feel as comfortable as possible with each other. You don't do this by hiding things. Trust me, you are experienced in life enough to know if her ex is a jerk. You would probably pick that up within the first few sentences of a conversation. However, as much as anyone here cares to differ, there is always the chance, even if its slim, that this guy had some reason. Maybe you would still think he's a jerk and the reason was frivolous. But there is always the chance. I know there are many happy stories here. I hope yours ends happily too.

But don't think me rude for suggesting that you try to make sure you swing at a good pitch for a home run instead of getting strike three. It was your own concerns in that posting that even had me reply in the first place. Actually I am a bit taken back that you've done such a 180 and are so insulted after it was you who first expressed your doubts. My advice though verbose as it was,was to simply resolve those doubts by getting the facts. Doubts do not go away by ignoring them. If you have them now and ignore them, they will be back 1,5, or even 10 years from now. So, I cannot apologize for telling you to be careful.

 

As for NUWORLD, yes I agree, there are many wonderful people here and I love this site. But if you explore this site you will find that a few people here have not had good experiences. I feel bad when I read their postings. When phantom first made his posting and himself mentioned that someone told him to watch out for Beijing girls or Nanning girls etc. I wanted to say that was not right, but then I wanted to share with him and others how Chinese men rate girls. I also wanted to express that Shenzhen is a very special place with it's own unique concerns. That is why my first question only asked him about education and employment. He actually answered in a very positive way, and I said so, but everyone started piling on so much about what I said abut Shenzhen that I had to defend myself. What I stated about Shenzhen was not just personal opinion. Please read the link I posted before:

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/...,108014,00.html

I guess not only me, but the HK goverment, CNN, and Time magazine are all just bigoted liars.

The other part of the conversation about his SO's previous marriages raised a red flag but at no time did I say he should leave her or say she was not a good person. I did legitimately say that it would be prudent to get more info. Phantom later acted so insulted that I implied that his SO was not trustworthy. I never said that. But the fact is, he knows one side of a story. He only knows this girl online. He was burned by not one but two other girls he completely trusted. He should not be insulted about an insult that never happened. Instead if he were insulted at all it would be that I am in some way insulting his judgement. I don't know where everyone here lives. But when I do not live in China I live in NYC. All my friends are Chinese and the few American friends I have are all married to or have Chinese SOs. I have seen many happy stories. But I also have seen first hand many tragic ones. As bad as I thought one of mine was, it pales in comparison to what people I know experienced. I won't even post any of those stories because it may overshadow the good ones here. But I dont want to see anything bad repeated here. Those here who suggest phantom sit back and ignore something "small" as a temporary marriage to a westerner are not doing him any service. It would take very little effort to dispell his doubts or save him from a third bad experience.

To anyone else who doubts my motives, maybe you think I distrust Chinese. If so why am I marrying one? Why are all my friends Chinese? If you want to know the truth, the people who distrust Chinese the most are other Chinese. And here's how you can prove it:

Ask any Chinese person this question and then ask a westerner the same question:

First ask if they trust Chinese. Almost every Chinese will say yes. Then say:

"Suppose you have own a store. Your store does well. But you want to move to another city. Yet you cannot because you don't want to give up the business. Would you be willing to hire another Chinese to manage your business while you move to the other city? You could keep your business and at the same time live where you want."

100% of the Chinese I asked all said no way (and most laughed at me like I was stupid to even suggest.) . Most westerners said sure.

Anyway, good luck to everyone.