Prenup's

[MikeandRong]

I am leaning slightly towards the side of doing it but I WILL NOT tell her this while she is in China. I understand why some may think this is wrong.

 

 

If you don't tell her about this and spring it on her after her arrival, she may very well take this as a trust issue in and of itself.

 

If my SO were to do this to me with no previous communtcation about it, and dropped that bomb upon my arrival to China right before the wedding, I would be crushed. My first thought would be why did you not tell me ahead of time, and why did you not trust me to tell me you were thinking about this. You felt it important enough to talk to your lawyer and protect yourself, but not important enough to tell me? Why did you wait until after I arrived, did you think I would not come if you had told me before?

 

I would really think this through before you did someting like this (not the prenup, but waiting to tell her AFTER she arrives). You say you trust her, but not enough trust to tell her what is on your mind?

 

My thought about this is only the not telling ahead of time. This would not be a good way to welcome her to the USA and start your new life together. The only thing you owe your attorny is money. You owe your wife your love and trust.

 

To each his own on the prenup, as everyone has different life experiences on this matter. But to hide/keep this from her until she arrives is just pain wrong and sneaky. Not to be hard on you, but do you fear she will not come if you tell her ahead of time? JMHO.

Edited July 21, 2006 by MikeandRong (see edit history)

[woainilin]

From a female prespective, I don't think it would be good to wait until she gets to US if you want a pre-nup. She will already be uncomfortable as she is just trying to adjust to moving to a new country with a new man. If you bring up the prenup after she already arrives she will feel like you are forcing it on her and that she has no choice being as she is already here. Think even if she agrees she will resent and not trust you as much.

[Dennis143]

From a female prespective, I don't think it would be good to wait until she gets to US if you want a pre-nup.  She will already be uncomfortable as she is just trying to adjust to moving to a new country with a new man.  If you bring up the prenup after she already arrives she will feel like you are forcing it on her and that she has no choice being as she is already here. Think even if she agrees she will resent and not trust you as much.

232486[/snapback]

woainilin is absolutely correct.

 

An American woman once told me that the act of signing a prenupt is the ultimate sign of love. I have to agree with her. But, she is an American woman who can fully understand and wrap her head around the concept. This is totally alien and foreign to a Chinese woman who would be looking for signs that the man she plans to marry will provide her with a life of SECURITY. Asking her to sign a 10 page legal document that limits the amount of security you give her will be the death knell to your relationship. I will bet you a six pack of Chefies brews on this.

 

My wife and I have many Chinese female friends here in the US. So, let me give you a little first-hand experience from my friend Tina.

 

Tina met an American man and they planned to marry. Through our interpreter friend, Tina told me that her fiancé had drawn up a prenupt. He hired a attorney for her, so that she would know what she was signing. She gave me the prenupt and asked me to read it and give my opinion. Actually, I thought the prenupt was more than fair. It would give her the right to stay in his home for up to a year, if they were to dissolve their marriage. If, before five years of marriage, they divorce she would be given $4000 (I spoke to her fiance on the phone and he told me this was his attorney's suggestion. So, that it would not seem unfair that he wasn't giving her something). I told her that the prenupt was fair and that she would come out better than what she had going in. But, she ended the engagement. Basically, she was worried about health insurance. Yes, just health insurance. And, there was no mention of it in the prenupt.

 

Tina's English is limited. She looks at marriage the same as most Chinese women (in China) do. She looked for simple signs that this man would give her a secure life. And, the mere thought that he would not made her run away fast.

 

These are not American women. And, this is no slam against our American sisters. These Chinese women look for a better life. They seek a life where their husband will assure them that they will be taken care of, for better or worse.

 

Honestly, if you are insecure about having your assets being taken away, in the event of a divorce, I would strongly suggest that you reconsider taking a wife from China. For this is a concept that you will find fruitless in trying to convey to your SO.

Edited July 21, 2006 by Dennis143 (see edit history)

[bill23]

From a female prespective, I don't think it would be good to wait until she gets to US if you want a pre-nup.  She will already be uncomfortable as she is just trying to adjust to moving to a new country with a new man.  If you bring up the prenup after she already arrives she will feel like you are forcing it on her and that she has no choice being as she is already here. Think even if she agrees she will resent and not trust you as much.

232486[/snapback]

woainilin is absolutely correct.

 

An American woman once told me that the act of signing a prenupt is the ultimate sign of love. I have to agree with her. But, she is an American woman who can fully understand and wrap her head around the concept. This is totally alien and foreign to a Chinese woman who would be looking for signs that the man she plans to marry will provide her with a life of SECURITY. Asking her to sign a 10 page legal document that limits the amount of security you give her will be the death knell to your relationship. I will bet you a six pack of Chefies brews on this.

 

My wife and I have many Chinese female friends here in the US. So, let me give you a little first-hand experience from my friend Tina.

 

Tina met an American man and they planned to marry. Through our interpreter friend, Tina told me that her fiancé had drawn up a prenupt. He hired a attorney for her, so that she would know what she was signing. She gave me the prenupt and asked me to read it and give my opinion. Actually, I thought the prenupt was more than fair. It would give her the right to stay in his home for up to a year, if they were to dissolve their marriage. If, before five years of marriage, they divorce she would be given $4000 (I spoke to her fiance on the phone and he told me this was his attorney's suggestion. So, that it would not seem unfair that he wasn't giving her something). I told her that the prenupt was fair and that she would come out better than what she had going in. But, she ended the engagement. Basically, she was worried about health insurance. Yes, just health insurance. And, there was no mention of it in the prenupt.

 

Tina's English is limited. She looks at marriage the same as most Chinese women (in China) do. She looked for simple signs that this man would give her a secure life. And, the mere thought that he would not made her run away fast.

 

These are not American women. And, this is no slam against our American sisters. These Chinese women look for a better life. They seek a life where their husband will assure them that they will be taken care of, for better or worse.

 

Honestly, if you are insecure about having your assets being taken away, in the event of a divorce, I would strongly suggest that you reconsider taking a wife from China. For this is a concept that you will find fruitless in trying to convey to your SO.

232493[/snapback]

I appreciate everyone being so candid about this. Getting a female perspective is also a very good thing for me. My thought of not telling her before she gets her has nothing to do with me being afraid that she would change her mind. We have had so many misunderstanding due to the language or cultural differences. I also understand what my SO is giving up by leaving her country and family. I really honestly do. Also, the promise that I made when this process started to my attorney, means nothing. Until I found this board a little over a week ago, I could not get advice from people like all you who have experienced this.

 

I want everyone to know that I never had any intention of creating a document that only protects me. Not anything even close to that. I have accumulated quite a bit for someone my age and I have been lucky and worked very hard. Even more, my mother has done very well for herself. I understand enough culture that I am also taking a responsibility to send some financial help to my SO's family when we recover from our expenses. She was assisting them with her job in China so it will be this way here. They tried extorting from me by a dowry and it was pretty hurtful. To educate myself, I have made numerous Chinese friends here and none of them disagree with the concept. It may be because they have met me and know me.

 

I cannot ignore that almost all of you are telling me it is cruel to spring this on her after she gets here. I won't ignore it. I know my intentions are to take care of her but I also do not trust the legal process should I divorce for whatever reason. My attorney told me stories of good and bad. I do not want my marriage to get off to a bad start. Thank all of you for sharing your opinions.

Edited July 21, 2006 by bill23 (see edit history)

[rogerluli]

I am leaning slightly towards the side of doing it but I WILL NOT tell her this while she is in China.  I understand why some may think this is wrong. 

 

232430[/snapback]

Not telling her while she is in China????

 

Very, very bad way to begin a life together...

[yuan fen]

In my case, no prenup. It is not that I don't have much to lose, it is just my belief. If I felt that I needed one, I would never be in the place I am now going through this process.

Edited July 21, 2006 by yuan fen (see edit history)

[egolessvegan]

...........My personal opinion on prenuptial agreements, they are a disrespect to your SO. Why get married if you are worried about this. Maybe it is better to wait until you feel more trust.

 

Ken

[jim_julian]

We have a pre-nup.

 

I first discussed the concept with her over 18 months before we were married. My reasons for wanting a pre-nup are many:

 

1. I was in process of going through divorce with a woman I was married to for 36 years. You would not believe the change she went through. A reasonable (at least my view) 50-50 settlement (California - community property) is not good enough, even though I offered to take either side of the offer. Now more than two years after I told her I wanted a divorce we are still in a very expensive court battle. You never get married intending to get divorced and you never know what will happen if you do get divorced.

 

2. I have considerable assets.

 

3. There are many "friends" and even relatives who initially may tend to think Lao Po married me for money and a green card. A pre-nup helps to diffuse this.

 

... these are some of my reasons and I'm not saying they are right or wrong. They are offered for perspective, not judgment.

 

As our K-1 appeared that it would become reality I had my lawyer draft the pre-nup in accordance with the basic guidance I gave him as to what I wanted to accomplish. I had discussed the basic tenents with Lao Po previously.

 

I brought the pre-nup to China on our GZ trip and we had it translated by a Notary. If you do this, be sure to separate any numbers such as pre-marriage assets, into annexes. The Notary was a bit puzzeled by the pre-nup and finally decided it was a contract, which is a reasonable thought. Contracts that go through Notary process are assessed a percentage of the contract's "value". If we had the "value" portion translated it would have been the world's most expensive translation. The Notary will also want to retain an original of the English document so bring 2 or 3 originals with you.

 

We now had the pre-nup in the form of a white Notary book with lots of Chinese stamps.

 

In the US Lao Po picked a lawyer from a choice of several. The first was Chinese speaking but Loa Po didn't like her and she was rejected after the first consultation. We couldn't find another Chinese speaking family law lawyer so she picked an English speaker and we hired a court certified Mandarin translator. Lao Po met with her lawyer and the translator and reviewed the document in Chinese and English. She was advised of the rights she was giving up by her lawyer. The translator provided a legal certificate that she translated. Lao Po signed the document. Later I signed. We made copies. A couple weeks later we were married.

 

It is my understanding that to have an enforeable pre-nup in California it must be written and seen by both parties at least two week prior to the marriage. Signing can be less than two weeks. Of course language can be an issue. Even though Lao Po understood the pre-nup, we got a court certified translator. Some also recommend making a video of the counseling session and the signing ... we didn't go to that extreme.

 

Remember, a pre-nup only comes into force if you divorce. If you stay married your will and inheritance laws apply, not the pre-nup. Lao Po has sufficent assets of her own in China that she and her family are secure. She did not have objection to the pre-nup after she understood it. Her view may have been different if she "needed" more monetary security. Also remember I introduced the concept very early in our relationship when we were just exploring the possibility of getting married.

 

Do I think we'll ever use the pre-nup? Of course not, we wouldn't have married if I did. I love my Lao Po. We have a pre-nup. In my view, you should carefully consider one also.

[Guest pushbrk]

We have a pre-nup.

 

I first discussed the concept with her over 18 months before we were married.

 

snip

 

Lao Po has sufficent assets of her own in China that she and her family are secure.  She did not have objection to the pre-nup after she understood it.  Her view may have been different if she "needed" more monetary security. 

 

Also remember I introduced the concept very early in our relationship when we were just exploring the possibility of getting married.

 

232540[/snapback]

Jim gives an example of how to deal with this issue in a way that has a good chance of success, before the proposal of marriage.

[rogerluli]

I have gotten divorced twice in marital property states, California and Wisconsin. You share your income from the day you are married. You do NOT share your assets. In a long-term marriage ALL assets are shared without a pre-nup. If your wife were to walk out on you after a year or two and you did not have a pre-nup she will not be leaving with half your assets. I do not like them and would never have asked laopo to sign one.

[bill23]

I have gotten divorced twice in marital property states, California and Wisconsin. You share your income from the day you are married. You do NOT share your assets. In a long-term marriage ALL assets are shared without a pre-nup. If your wife were to walk out on you after a year or two and you did not have a pre-nup she will not be leaving with half your assets. I do not like them and would never have asked laopo to sign one.

232545[/snapback]

Roger,

 

It is my understanding that here in Georgia that she could leave me and take half of my assets. All situations are different in my opinion. This is not an issue of trust as many explain here. Not in my situation. I want my SO to become independant and I plan on putting her through school to do whatever she wants. She is not going to be cleaning people's houses for a living. Now I have talked to her about this. She does not even have to work but she feels the need to contribute. This was her choice. She is in the medical field so I told her that I do not want her to rush to get the first job to help the household. I love her enough to make sure she is well equipped to do whatever she chooses.

 

If I did decide to do a prenup---I would be asking her and not demanding. It is her choice because I have waited so long. It is hard to believe but me waiting was the right decision and still is. It is too late in the process for us to discuss this through an interpreter in China. This may mean that I will not do one or even bring it up. I am not cruel or selfish but I would not expect anyone who has not met me to believe this.

 

Many good and bad stories occur everyday in these relationships. Many guys have believed that they were loved and trusted their SO and were wrong. I believe in my SO very very much. If I thought she was coming here mainly to get a better life, I wouldn't be getting married. Marriage is about love and trust----a more than fair prenupt in some cases should not diminish this. I believe people should also be prudent. My SO is leaving her country and family so this makes it difficult. I can assure all of you that I love her and want the best for her. A prenup is a good idea for me to protect me from a disaster. Either way the SO is in a very good situation without getting into all the details. My Chinese friend has offered to sit down and explain all of this and why it is a good idea. From the responses I am getting it may not be worth it.

[gman2531]

You guys have more information and have been so willing to help.  I feel like I am high maintenance.  Especially to you--David.  I have talked to the SO after taking all the advice on numerous subjects and things are great.

 

This prenup thing is kind of an interesting deal.  My attorney is a Chinese man and before he took my case he strongly suggested that I do one.  I am not rich by any means but have some investments and property.  Also I live in a community property state.  Any thoughts on this?  I am kind of uncomfortable about it.  I really trust my SO that much.

232406[/snapback]

Another two cents........

 

Bill, I can certainly sympathize with you. It seems as though you have had some bad experiences in the past with divorce settlements, your father. Perhaps you also felt "extorted" by your SO's family for a dowry although this is Chinese custom to some degree. Our actions are sometimes predicated on our past experiences. Only you know your SO and the situation at hand so you must make this choice.

 

Many excellent points were made previously such as your financial responsibilities required by the Affidavit of Support. It is also true that the "meter only starts running" after you are married when it comes to division of property.

 

But I would agree with most others in advising that you must have a good understanding with your SO about this before you go any further down the Visa road. I know that my SO does not like surprises and she would be very angry and hurt to have this put on her after she arrives. Open and honest communication is the foundation of a good marriage and even though we struggle sometimes with our SOs because of the language and cultural differences, we should always go the extra mile with each other to make our thoughts and feelings be understood. Good Luck!

[sleepless in Houston&CQ]

It is an interesting topic. Hubby and me have talked about this a lot on the phone. I'm glad we always have the same thoughts. We are really one!

If my husband asked me sign this agreement before we got married, I would sign without any hesitation. But this would hurt my pride. and I would't share my assets with him either. I don't think this is a good beginning of a new life.

I believe it is better to tell your SO before she leaving china. If you think she is your missing half and want to share the rest of your life with her,why don't you ask for her opinion about this issue?

Bobby's wife Emma

[david_dawei]

Bill... you can articulate your position and feelings well, as did jim in support of a pre-nup. I would think that those who have really thought it through, can explain themselves, and are seeking some coverage for their soon-to-be are probably more successful...

 

You make very strong arguments that any western woman has grown up to understand: CYASSets. In a country where legalism has touched every religious and secular ways of living, this idea of a pre-nup is punctuated with power and protection against any usurper. Ironically, the potential usurper is the person one is vowing a lifetime together with...

 

My personal objection is that a pre-nup means signing on the dotted line of divorce before signing on the dotted line of marriage; it's illogical to me and smacks too much of distrust and disloyalty... not necessarily from the western side (already mentioned), but what the eastern person could view it as.

 

When I deal with my wife, I'm not so concerned about my own logical approach to some issue (why should I, I already understand it); I tend to be focused on understanding her point of view exclusively (blank slate approach--drop all my preconceived ideas and logical expressions to just try and get it from her point of view).

 

I learned a few [tough] lessons from my SO early in the relationship; what she truly holds as sacred in regards to the relationship, trust, and loyalty... Our motto is: Yong yuan zai yi qi (together forever). I understand relationships don't work out; I am divorced.. but the comparisons are already night and day in terms of the expression of issues just mentioned.

 

It is your SOs point of view that will determine if this pre-nup is acceptable or a reason to go back to china... At least if you tell her prior to coming to china, she can decide not to come to the US as well.. So I agree with letting her know sooner than later... but this can be even more difficult to do. I hope she sees it from your point of view. Using some chinese friends sounds like a good idea. Good luck.

Edited July 21, 2006 by DavidZixuan (see edit history)

[bill23]

You guys have more information and have been so willing to help.  I feel like I am high maintenance.  Especially to you--David.  I have talked to the SO after taking all the advice on numerous subjects and things are great.

 

This prenup thing is kind of an interesting deal.  My attorney is a Chinese man and before he took my case he strongly suggested that I do one.  I am not rich by any means but have some investments and property.  Also I live in a community property state.  Any thoughts on this?  I am kind of uncomfortable about it.  I really trust my SO that much.

232406[/snapback]

Another two cents........

 

Bill, I can certainly sympathize with you. It seems as though you have had some bad experiences in the past with divorce settlements, your father. Perhaps you also felt "extorted" by your SO's family for a dowry although this is Chinese custom to some degree. Our actions are sometimes predicated on our past experiences. Only you know your SO and the situation at hand so you must make this choice.

 

Many excellent points were made previously such as your financial responsibilities required by the Affidavit of Support. It is also true that the "meter only starts running" after you are married when it comes to division of property.

 

But I would agree with most others in advising that you must have a good understanding with your SO about this before you go any further down the Visa road. I know that my SO does not like surprises and she would be very angry and hurt to have this put on her after she arrives. Open and honest communication is the foundation of a good marriage and even though we struggle sometimes with our SOs because of the language and cultural differences, we should always go the extra mile with each other to make our thoughts and feelings be understood. Good Luck!

232556[/snapback]

Gman,

 

Thank you for that post. My affidavit of support does not come into play I don't think. About when "the meter starts running" ---that is where I am confused. If you are right a prenup is probably still wise for me but I will not even go there. I will inherit a significant amount of money and some that is in trust right now. I am willing to lay all of that on the line and it is more than I currently have.

 

In my situation, it was best not to disclose my situation or assets to China. My SO is my first true love, although I have loved many. I have never married and had never truly loved someone. My SO is going to be in a wonderful situation with or without a prenup. My family loves and trusts her and they also have agreed and are shocked at everything I have done to make all of this happen. In no way do they believe that I should discuss this with her before she gets here. I have very strong reasons and all of you would agree with me. Even if it means that all think I should not ask for a prenup.

 

I got what I needed here. One day I will share more. No prenupt is in order for me. I may regret it but I don't think it will matter.