Zhen's Tiger Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 The form defines a marriage broker as If you met your fianc¨¦ or spouse through the services of aninternational marriage broker, you must notify USCIS ofthat fact by answering Question 19 on this form. The term¡°international marriage broker¡± means a corporation,partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity,whether or not organized under any law of the UnitedStates, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial,matchmaking services, or social referrals between UnitedStates citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted tothe United States as lawful permanent residents andforeign national clients by providing personal contactinformation or otherwise facilitating communicationbetween individuals. This seems to broaden the definition, since it includes any entity which simply "facilitates communication".224397[/snapback]I believe the statute used the term "facilitates communication" as well.224405[/snapback]Yes, my understanding of the law is it does include dating websites because they facilitate a platform that puts the USC in contact with the foreign prospect.224406[/snapback]It is a complicated sentence that must not be parsed. ===================================================If you met your fianc¨¦ or spouse through the services of an international marriage broker, you must notify USCIS of that fact by answering Question 19 on this form. The term ¡°international marriage broker¡± means a corporation, partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized under any law of the UnitedStates, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services, or social referrals between UnitedStates citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted tothe United States as lawful permanent residents andforeign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals. ============================================= The confusion begins at... "...that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial,matchmaking services, or social referrals between UnitedStates citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted tothe United States as lawful permanent residents andforeign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals." Note "fees for providing" "between United States....and foreign national "clients". If a dating website charges all members the same fee whether they choose to communicate with people from another Nation or not, then they are not primarily facilitating communication between US folks and foreign folks. They just post profiles of "people" and facilitate communication between those people. Members interested in marriage (whether international or not) are not charged differently than those interested in pen pals or dating. These sites are not IMB's. They have members from different countries but their business is not primarily help people marry foreigners. There is also an exlusionary paragraph in the law that clarifies this.224411[/snapback]OH Thank you!! I have been sick since reading this... I like your explanation - it makes sense to me that a website charging the same fees for all types of communication is NOT an IMB. Link to comment
Guest pushbrk Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 The form defines a marriage broker as If you met your fianc¨¦ or spouse through the services of aninternational marriage broker, you must notify USCIS ofthat fact by answering Question 19 on this form. The term¡°international marriage broker¡± means a corporation,partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity,whether or not organized under any law of the UnitedStates, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial,matchmaking services, or social referrals between UnitedStates citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted tothe United States as lawful permanent residents andforeign national clients by providing personal contactinformation or otherwise facilitating communicationbetween individuals. This seems to broaden the definition, since it includes any entity which simply "facilitates communication".224397[/snapback]I believe the statute used the term "facilitates communication" as well.224405[/snapback]Yes, my understanding of the law is it does include dating websites because they facilitate a platform that puts the USC in contact with the foreign prospect.224406[/snapback]It is a complicated sentence that must not be parsed. ===================================================If you met your fianc¨¦ or spouse through the services of an international marriage broker, you must notify USCIS of that fact by answering Question 19 on this form. The term ¡°international marriage broker¡± means a corporation, partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized under any law of the UnitedStates, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services, or social referrals between UnitedStates citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted tothe United States as lawful permanent residents andforeign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals. ============================================= The confusion begins at... "...that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial,matchmaking services, or social referrals between UnitedStates citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted tothe United States as lawful permanent residents andforeign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals." Note "fees for providing" "between United States....and foreign national "clients". If a dating website charges all members the same fee whether they choose to communicate with people from another Nation or not, then they are not primarily facilitating communication between US folks and foreign folks. They just post profiles of "people" and facilitate communication between those people. Members interested in marriage (whether international or not) are not charged differently than those interested in pen pals or dating. These sites are not IMB's. They have members from different countries but their business is not primarily help people marry foreigners. There is also an exlusionary paragraph in the law that clarifies this.224411[/snapback]OH Thank you!! I have been sick since reading this... I like your explanation - it makes sense to me that a website charging the same fees for all types of communication is NOT an IMB.224415[/snapback]You're very welcome. Here is the exclusion and some other supporting commentary from the other thread. There are, under Section 833(e)(4)(, TWO IMPORTANT EXCEPTIONS, : 1) "The Non-Profit": a traditional matchmaking organization of a cultural or religious nature which offers its services on a non-profit basis under law, tyically a state-registered corporation, and 2) "The Non-Primary Business with Comparable Rates": a domestic dating service or other primary service whose principal business is NOT international dating and which charges comparable rates for comparable services to all individuals, men and women, domestic and foreign. For instance, I met my wife on a website that charges all members the same fee, regardless of where they live. While it is possible for people from different countries to meet and marry, it is neither the primary or secondary business is related to "International Dating". Any interntional dating is incidental. These websites typically gather no information on their members beyond verifying that they have a valid email address and a secure method of payment. Even if you paid with a credit card they don't even know your name, and they cannot and do not provide you with the name or personal contact information of other members. What is a secure method of payment, you ask? It means they website never even knows your name or credit card number. The transactions are handled on a "secure" basis. You are not being charged for matchmaking. No matchmaking services are provided, international or otherwise. Here's some more clarification from... http://www.onlinedatingmagazine.com/column...iagebroker.html Effect on the Online Dating IndustryThis law targets sites/agencies that are specifically aimed at hooking up U.S. men with overseas women. Since typical online dating sites like and aren't "international marriage brokers" they don't have to specifically worry about this law. However, it also beckons that online dating services should be careful in how they approach communications between Americans and foreigners. If this new law causes a huge influx of overseas women using general online dating services then congress may start taking a closer look at that issue. Link to comment
Zhen's Tiger Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 The form defines a marriage broker as If you met your fianc¨¦ or spouse through the services of aninternational marriage broker, you must notify USCIS ofthat fact by answering Question 19 on this form. The term¡°international marriage broker¡± means a corporation,partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity,whether or not organized under any law of the UnitedStates, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial,matchmaking services, or social referrals between UnitedStates citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted tothe United States as lawful permanent residents andforeign national clients by providing personal contactinformation or otherwise facilitating communicationbetween individuals. This seems to broaden the definition, since it includes any entity which simply "facilitates communication".224397[/snapback]I believe the statute used the term "facilitates communication" as well.224405[/snapback]Yes, my understanding of the law is it does include dating websites because they facilitate a platform that puts the USC in contact with the foreign prospect.224406[/snapback]It is a complicated sentence that must not be parsed. ===================================================If you met your fianc¨¦ or spouse through the services of an international marriage broker, you must notify USCIS of that fact by answering Question 19 on this form. The term ¡°international marriage broker¡± means a corporation, partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized under any law of the UnitedStates, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services, or social referrals between UnitedStates citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted tothe United States as lawful permanent residents andforeign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals. ============================================= The confusion begins at... "...that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial,matchmaking services, or social referrals between UnitedStates citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted tothe United States as lawful permanent residents andforeign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals." Note "fees for providing" "between United States....and foreign national "clients". If a dating website charges all members the same fee whether they choose to communicate with people from another Nation or not, then they are not primarily facilitating communication between US folks and foreign folks. They just post profiles of "people" and facilitate communication between those people. Members interested in marriage (whether international or not) are not charged differently than those interested in pen pals or dating. These sites are not IMB's. They have members from different countries but their business is not primarily help people marry foreigners. There is also an exlusionary paragraph in the law that clarifies this.224411[/snapback]OH Thank you!! I have been sick since reading this... I like your explanation - it makes sense to me that a website charging the same fees for all types of communication is NOT an IMB.224415[/snapback]You're very welcome. Here is the exclusion and some other supporting commentary from the other thread. There are, under Section 833(e)(4)(, TWO IMPORTANT EXCEPTIONS, : 1) "The Non-Profit": a traditional matchmaking organization of a cultural or religious nature which offers its services on a non-profit basis under law, tyically a state-registered corporation, and 2) "The Non-Primary Business with Comparable Rates": a domestic dating service or other primary service whose principal business is NOT international dating and which charges comparable rates for comparable services to all individuals, men and women, domestic and foreign. For instance, I met my wife on a website that charges all members the same fee, regardless of where they live. While it is possible for people from different countries to meet and marry, it is neither the primary or secondary business is related to "International Dating". Any interntional dating is incidental. These websites typically gather no information on their members beyond verifying that they have a valid email address and a secure method of payment. Even if you paid with a credit card they don't even know your name, and they cannot and do not provide you with the name or personal contact information of other members. What is a secure method of payment, you ask? It means they website never even knows your name or credit card number. The transactions are handled on a "secure" basis. You are not being charged for matchmaking. No matchmaking services are provided, international or otherwise. Here's some more clarification from... http://www.onlinedatingmagazine.com/column...iagebroker.html Effect on the Online Dating IndustryThis law targets sites/agencies that are specifically aimed at hooking up U.S. men with overseas women. Since typical online dating sites like and aren't "international marriage brokers" they don't have to specifically worry about this law. However, it also beckons that online dating services should be careful in how they approach communications between Americans and foreigners. If this new law causes a huge influx of overseas women using general online dating services then congress may start taking a closer look at that issue.224416[/snapback]Thanks again... the link is blocked by my Office, but I will read it as soon as I get home! Do you know what I should be doing to prepare for this? Can I download the new forms now, fill them out, send them in and somehow have them added to our original case? Or do we just wait for an RFE? And I thought I saw posts earlier saying it would not affect K-3s but in this forum I see someone saying it does... does it? Many thanks!! Link to comment
miker32us Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 It appears the new law targets agencies such as "Russian Brides" which specifically charged American men a fee to introduce them to Russian women. They organized trips to Russia and purported to have dozens of gorgeous 20 YO (virgins) waiting on the tarmac for the Americans. By the way, the Russian government shut down this site because it was a scam. Link to comment
Guest pushbrk Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 The form defines a marriage broker as If you met your fianc¨¦ or spouse through the services of aninternational marriage broker, you must notify USCIS ofthat fact by answering Question 19 on this form. The term¡°international marriage broker¡± means a corporation,partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity,whether or not organized under any law of the UnitedStates, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial,matchmaking services, or social referrals between UnitedStates citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted tothe United States as lawful permanent residents andforeign national clients by providing personal contactinformation or otherwise facilitating communicationbetween individuals. This seems to broaden the definition, since it includes any entity which simply "facilitates communication".224397[/snapback]I believe the statute used the term "facilitates communication" as well.224405[/snapback]Yes, my understanding of the law is it does include dating websites because they facilitate a platform that puts the USC in contact with the foreign prospect.224406[/snapback]It is a complicated sentence that must not be parsed. ===================================================If you met your fianc¨¦ or spouse through the services of an international marriage broker, you must notify USCIS of that fact by answering Question 19 on this form. The term ¡°international marriage broker¡± means a corporation, partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized under any law of the UnitedStates, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services, or social referrals between UnitedStates citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted tothe United States as lawful permanent residents andforeign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals. ============================================= The confusion begins at... "...that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial,matchmaking services, or social referrals between UnitedStates citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted tothe United States as lawful permanent residents andforeign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals." Note "fees for providing" "between United States....and foreign national "clients". If a dating website charges all members the same fee whether they choose to communicate with people from another Nation or not, then they are not primarily facilitating communication between US folks and foreign folks. They just post profiles of "people" and facilitate communication between those people. Members interested in marriage (whether international or not) are not charged differently than those interested in pen pals or dating. These sites are not IMB's. They have members from different countries but their business is not primarily help people marry foreigners. There is also an exlusionary paragraph in the law that clarifies this.224411[/snapback]OH Thank you!! I have been sick since reading this... I like your explanation - it makes sense to me that a website charging the same fees for all types of communication is NOT an IMB.224415[/snapback]You're very welcome. Here is the exclusion and some other supporting commentary from the other thread. There are, under Section 833(e)(4)(, TWO IMPORTANT EXCEPTIONS, : 1) "The Non-Profit": a traditional matchmaking organization of a cultural or religious nature which offers its services on a non-profit basis under law, tyically a state-registered corporation, and 2) "The Non-Primary Business with Comparable Rates": a domestic dating service or other primary service whose principal business is NOT international dating and which charges comparable rates for comparable services to all individuals, men and women, domestic and foreign. For instance, I met my wife on a website that charges all members the same fee, regardless of where they live. While it is possible for people from different countries to meet and marry, it is neither the primary or secondary business is related to "International Dating". Any interntional dating is incidental. These websites typically gather no information on their members beyond verifying that they have a valid email address and a secure method of payment. Even if you paid with a credit card they don't even know your name, and they cannot and do not provide you with the name or personal contact information of other members. What is a secure method of payment, you ask? It means they website never even knows your name or credit card number. The transactions are handled on a "secure" basis. You are not being charged for matchmaking. No matchmaking services are provided, international or otherwise. Here's some more clarification from... http://www.onlinedatingmagazine.com/column...iagebroker.html Effect on the Online Dating IndustryThis law targets sites/agencies that are specifically aimed at hooking up U.S. men with overseas women. Since typical online dating sites like and aren't "international marriage brokers" they don't have to specifically worry about this law. However, it also beckons that online dating services should be careful in how they approach communications between Americans and foreigners. If this new law causes a huge influx of overseas women using general online dating services then congress may start taking a closer look at that issue.224416[/snapback]Thanks again... the link is blocked by my Office, but I will read it as soon as I get home! Do you know what I should be doing to prepare for this? Can I download the new forms now, fill them out, send them in and somehow have them added to our original case? Or do we just wait for an RFE? And I thought I saw posts earlier saying it would not affect K-3s but in this forum I see someone saying it does... does it? Many thanks!!224418[/snapback]It is unclear whether RFE's will be sent to K3 petitioners. Link to comment
frank1538 Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 A piece of advice to the membership. Never take the pronouncements of members, including myself, as gospel. At best, it misleads; at worst, it misinforms. I would hate for someone to answer "no" to question #19 (Did you meet your fianc¨¦(e) or spouse through the services of an international marriage broker?) only to find out later that the website he or she used meets the definition of an IMB. IMBRA has yet to be sorted out, and the definition of an International Marriage Broker, which is designed to be very broad, has yet to be fleshed out and remains the subject of differing opinions. But remember, the only opinion that counts is that of the judge who rules on the the case. Link to comment
coulter Posted June 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 A piece of advice to the membership. Never take the pronouncements of members, including myself, as gospel. At best, it misleads; at worst, it misinforms. I would hate for someone to answer "no" to question #19 (Did you meet your fianc¨¦(e) or spouse through the services of an international marriage broker?) only to find out later that the website he or she used meets the definition of an IMB. IMBRA has yet to be sorted out, and the definition of an International Marriage Broker, which is designed to be very broad, has yet to be fleshed out and remains the subject of differing opinions. But remember, the only opinion that counts is that of the judge who rules on the the case.224430[/snapback]Good suggestion! Maybe along with the petition, provide detailed information as to how you met, the website, how the website charges the same fee for each member or is free for everyone (assuming that is true), and any other evidence you have that the website does not meet the definition of an IMB. Link to comment
RLS Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 I assume this new form affects everyone who filed an I-129f whether it was for a K-1 or K-3 visa and that USCIS will send us RFE's for background information???? In other words, we do not have to fill out this new form and send them another check for $170.224393[/snapback]Have you specifically and personally been informed to fill this new form out and send it in? I'm still waiting for some instruction from USCIS. Link to comment
ameriken Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 Why not continue the IMBRA law discussion over here? http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18628224412[/snapback]Because it's in the survey forum. There's been extensive discussion in this forum covering much of the law and related questions. Here's an example. What is NOT an IMB... http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18336224413[/snapback]Thanks Mike! Link to comment
Guest pushbrk Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 (edited) A piece of advice to the membership.?Never take the pronouncements of members, including myself, as gospel.?At best, it misleads; at worst, it misinforms.?I would hate for someone to answer "no" to question #19 (Did you meet your fianc?e) or spouse through the services of an international marriage broker?) only to find out later that the website he or she used meets the definition of an IMB. IMBRA has yet to be sorted out, and the definition of an International Marriage Broker, which is designed to be very broad, has yet to be fleshed out and remains the subject of differing opinions.?But remember, the only opinion that counts is that of the judge who rules on the the case.224430[/snapback]I agree totally. At the same time, I would hate for somebody to misinterpret the instructions and cause themselves undue delay and heartache by panicking and giving the wrong answer. Let's say you answer yes, and it takes months for USCIS to try to get a response from a dating website that doesn't have attorney's or staff to deal with this kind of thing. They know they aren't and IMB and just ignore it. The way I understand the law, USCIS in the event an IMB is used, USCIS must make sure the IMB complied with their end of the law and provided information about any criminal record, to the foreign citizen. Just how are they going to accomplish that when the dating website isn't an IMB? Each person has to make their own decision based on their own circumstances. Knowing what I know about my own, I would answer NO to question 19. I can't answer for anybody else. Neither can those that are panicking and thinking all websites that charge money are IMB's. What I can tell you is that I used a "dating website". Through that website I dated 3 separate women local to me and another in California and corresponded with several others over a period of 3 years before I met my wife. I paid the same one time unlimited time membership fee others paid, regardless of their location. Some pay a monthly fee but the difference is not related to location. My wife's profile/username has been used by at least two other women, even though only one fee was paid. They just put up new pictures and profile information. My profile is available, should one of my single friends wish to use it. The only way I ever would have known my wife's real name, email address or anything else (or she mine) is if we provided the information to each other. The website never charged me a fee to arrange meeting my wife or contacting her. They charged me the same as they charged people who never did anything but look at profiles, who never met or communicated with anybody. This dating website is not and IMB an many others are not either. It's only my advice based on my reading of the law, but I would not advise somebody else with similar circumstances (filing K1) to answer yes to question 19 on the new I-129F. On the other hand, if you joined a website that allowed you to browse profiles, then charged you separate fee to communicate directly with any or each person, you better be darn sure that international contacts are incidental to, their primary business instead of their primary business, before you even think of answering no, I didn't use an IMB. I feel very sorry for those who filed after March 5 or will file I-129F anytime in the next few months, because I'm convinced USCIS doesn't yet know how they are going to deal with the ramifications of IMBRA. Edited June 15, 2006 by pushbrk (see edit history) Link to comment
coulter Posted June 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 On the other hand, if you joined a website that allowed you to browse profiles, then charged you separate fee to communicate directly with any or each person, you better be darn sure that international contacts are incidental to, their primary business instead of their primary business, before you even think of answering no, I didn't use an IMB.I agree 100%. Sadly for all those caught in the IMBRA trap, they can only use their best judgment while we all try to guess how DHS and the court's will interpret it. Link to comment
david_dawei Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 I think the practical thing to do is ask the service you meet on.. do they consider themselves an IMB or not? It is much too late in the game for someone to not have already consider this and not put in place the necessary steps [if they are one]... Case on point is CHNLove.. they appear to consider themselves one and have already put in place what they need to continue their operations and assure members of the safety of using their site.. I think it would be in a sites best interested to have been on top of this quickly.. so why not ask them instead of relying on our opinions would be my suggestion... Link to comment
Guest pushbrk Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 I think the practical thing to do is ask the service you meet on.. do they consider themselves an IMB or not? It is much too late in the game for someone to not have already consider this and not put in place the necessary steps [if they are one]... Case on point is CHNLove.. they appear to consider themselves one and have already put in place what they need to continue their operations and assure members of the safety of using their site.. I think it would be in a sites best interested to have been on top of this quickly.. so why not ask them instead of relying on our opinions would be my suggestion...224485[/snapback]I certainly think that's one of the things to do. I would be pretty enclined to believe them if they say they are but want to satisfy myself by other means, if they say they aren't. Link to comment
david_dawei Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 I think the practical thing to do is ask the service you meet on.. do they consider themselves an IMB or not? It is much too late in the game for someone to not have already consider this and not put in place the necessary steps [if they are one]... Case on point is CHNLove.. they appear to consider themselves one and have already put in place what they need to continue their operations and assure members of the safety of using their site.. I think it would be in a sites best interested to have been on top of this quickly.. so why not ask them instead of relying on our opinions would be my suggestion...224485[/snapback]I certainly think that's one of the things to do. I would be pretty enclined to believe them if they say they are but want to satisfy myself by other means, if they say they aren't. 224487[/snapback]why call them and ask them if your only willing to believe in one answer and not the other? If they say they are not [iMB], I'd be more relieved than to hunt down a fact that proves them wrong... It's fine to discuss these issues.. but this one is terribly fraught with legal definitions [with uncertain application] and implementation by various players... I'm not sure that whatever any one of us thinks is the answer is anything more than well-intentioned and researched speculation. If someone is caught up in this, they should start with the service... from there, I'd call USCIS for clarification as needed... I would not rely heavily on website opinions.. So I guess that this opinion of mine should be discarded as well.. Link to comment
Guest pushbrk Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 (edited) I think the practical thing to do is ask the service you meet on.. do they consider themselves an IMB or not???It is much too late in the game for someone to not have already consider this and not put in place the necessary steps [if they are one]...? Case on point is CHNLove.. they appear to consider themselves one and have already put in place what they need to continue their operations and assure members of the safety of using their site.. I think it would be in a sites best interested to have been on top of this quickly.. so why not ask them instead of relying on our opinions would be my suggestion...224485[/snapback]I certainly think that's one of the things to do. I would be pretty enclined to believe them if they say they are but want to satisfy myself by other means, if they say they aren't. 224487[/snapback]why call them and ask them if your only willing to believe in one answer and not the other? If they say they are not [iMB], I'd be more relieved than to hunt down a fact that proves them wrong... 224488[/snapback]Oh, the answer to that is simple. There is no motivation for an organization to tell you they are an IMB if it isn't true. There is plenty of reason for an organization that IS an IMB, doesn't know or doesn't care, to lie to you and tell you they aren't. I wouldn't go looking for ways to prove them wrong. I'd confirm by other means that they were telling the truth before relying on their answer. If I asked USCIS, I would expect them to either be totally inept at their answer or simply err on the side of covering their ass. We're dealing with humans here, after all. Edited June 16, 2006 by pushbrk (see edit history) Link to comment
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