Getting myself into hot water.......

[ameriken]

Something I saw a lot of in China, are the hot water units that heat the water as it flows, instead of a tank system. The advantages are you dont run out of hot water like a tank, and you save on gas costs because the water is heated only when used. Jie's thought is they may only be a few hundred dollars in China (we did not have a chance to investigage it further).

 

Radios Paul Harvey once advertised "Rinnai", who manufacture a similar unit, but the unit/installation costs were easily $1500 to $2000 vs a few hundred for a tank.

 

With energy costs so high, I am considering one of these, but am not ready to spend $1500+ for a unit. Anyone have more knowledge about these units and any other companies that have decent units at a better cost?

 

Ken

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Something I saw a lot of in China, are the hot water units that heat the water as it flows, instead of a tank system. The advantages are you dont run out of hot water like a tank, and you save on gas costs because the water is heated only when used. Jie's thought is they may only be a few hundred dollars in China (we did not have a chance to investigage it further).

 

Radios Paul Harvey once advertised "Rinnai", who manufacture a similar unit, but the unit/installation costs were easily $1500 to $2000 vs a few hundred for a tank.

 

With energy costs so high, I am considering one of these, but am not ready to spend $1500+ for a unit. Anyone have more knowledge about these units and any other companies that have decent units at a better cost?

 

Ken

184803[/snapback]

I've thought a lot about those Ken as my SO has one in her apartment. It's gas fed, and lives right on the wall under the shower-head. One must turn a couple knobs, one to turn on the gas, and the other to light it. It bothers me greatly however that there is no ventilation for the cotton picking thing. It smells like burned propane after you take a shower.

 

They do seem quite functional though, but I would make sure that you have adequate ventilation, as I'm not sure even if the codes of any county US would allow them....

 

Surely, where electric is concerned, everything must be properly grounded, with ground fault interrupt lock-out in all bathrooms. I can't think of any home in the US that has a gas dispensing, and lit device living in a bathroom, but there are electric instant heaters out there.

[ameriken]

Something I saw a lot of in China, are the hot water units that heat the water as it flows, instead of a tank system. The advantages are you dont run out of hot water like a tank, and you save on gas costs because the water is heated only when used. Jie's thought is they may only be a few hundred dollars in China (we did not have a chance to investigage it further).

 

Radios Paul Harvey once advertised "Rinnai", who manufacture a similar unit, but the unit/installation costs were easily $1500 to $2000 vs a few hundred for a tank.

 

With energy costs so high, I am considering one of these, but am not ready to spend $1500+ for a unit. Anyone have more knowledge about these units and any other companies that have decent units at a better cost?

 

Ken

184803[/snapback]

I've thought a lot about those Ken as my SO has one in her apartment. It's gas fed, and lives right on the wall under the shower-head. One must turn a couple knobs, one to turn on the gas, and the other to light it. It bothers me greatly however that there is no ventilation for the cotton picking thing. It smells like burned propane after you take a shower.

 

They do seem quite functional though, but I would make sure that you have adequate ventilation, as I'm not sure even if the codes of any county US would allow them....

 

Surely, where electric is concerned, everything must be properly grounded, with ground fault interrupt lock-out in all bathrooms. I can't think of any home in the US that has a gas dispensing, and lit device living in a bathroom, but there are electric instant heaters out there.

184808[/snapback]

I agree with the ventilation, hers is installed in the kitchen. When she got her apartment, I had a CO alarm installed, just in case.

 

However, here in the US, these are legal and safe, and can be installed in place of the hot water heater. Rinnai is one of those manufacturers. I am just trying to find one a little more economical.

[frank1538]

You can start here: http://www.tankless-water-heater.net/index.php

 

I've been considering going tankless if my current tank craps out on us. There are two approaches that I've considered. The "Chinese way" which has a small unit for each hot water outlet and the "American way" which has one or more larger units serving several hot water outlets. One of the problems is trying to figure out exactly how many units you will actually need, particularly in my family where we can have three showers, the dishwasher, and the washing machine all going at once on any given day.

 

While the energy savings are reputed to be good, the cost is still high.

 

I remember once though I was looking at an old house to purchase. While in the basement, I saw this cast iron water heater with a door. It was about the same size as a 50 gallon tank. I opened the door and to my surprise I saw a coil of copper pipe. I asked the agent what the heck it was, and he said it was an old style water heater. The water flow triggered the natural gas flame which heated the water as in wound its way through the coiled pipe. The gas flame went back to pilot (probably pilotless these days) when the water flow stopped. It was just this one unit for the whole house. Now that's efficient - almost felt like I could build one of them myself.

[nooneufo]

In 1988 my gas water heater failed and I checked out the Paloma hot water heaters. At the time I bought a PH-12 model because I was advised it saved money and would pay for itself. (Gas model). I had calculated it would save on the gas bills but I was in for a shock. The savings on the gas bill paid for itself in one year. Of course there were a lot more people using the hot water then, but it was impressive. Ever since then I have stuck with Paloma, (I think it is a Japanese company) and am currently using a PH-6 model ($600 last time I looked) for the past ten years. Again gas. The capability to have hot water any time, all the time so long as you have water to pump and power for the pump has always impressed my guests when the power fails. ( I get my power from the sun).

I have friends who have tried other manufactures (French), all of them have returned to Paloma's. No one I know has used the electric types, although I see many doctor's offices uses these in the exam rooms these days. I like using gas because a back up 5 gallon propane bottle and a 12 volt water pump allows me to take a hot shower during hurricanes, when you really need it.

Sizing matters, my PH-6 model can not have more than one outlet turned on at a time, but my PH-12 handled a two story house ok. You will want to research your needs against the capability of the unit, and the amount of water flow you have available.

[Yuanyang]

Natural gas prices have nearly doubled in most areas, nevertheless there are more postives with this system than negatives. Aside from never being out of hot water; the heat exchange efficency is close to 90% (so I hear), far more efficient than a water heater.

[jim_julian]

Google "Paloma hot water heater". There are many interesting articles. Some claim, if you are currently using natural gas, the savings may not balance the extra cost of the hardware. Still, interesting and worth looking at.

Edited January 22, 2006 by jim_julian (see edit history)

[Joanne]

The gas water heater in China can cost less than US$100. The newer models, can be as high as $200-300 are installed outdoors--the last one I used were installed outside of a bathroom window, there was a small compartment for it already designed into the building. The control is inside. You don't need to turn knobs (water and gas valves) every time you use hot water. You only need to adjust temperature (heating level) once in a while to align with the weather induced air and water temperature change. This adjustment is very similar to an centrol air-conditioning temperature adjustment unit (an turning knob with a few scales). Then, when you use the water, you only need to adjust your valves for the right amont of hot and cold water, same as when you use an electric water heater with a tank.

[rlheim]

The gas water heater in China can cost less than US$100.  The newer models, can be as high as $200-300 are installed outdoors--the last one I used were installed outside of a bathroom window, there was a small compartment for it already designed into the building.  The control is inside.  You don't need to turn knobs (water and gas valves) every time you use hot water.  You only need to adjust temperature (heating level) once in a while to align with the weather induced air and water temperature change.  This adjustment is very similar to an centrol air-conditioning temperature adjustment unit (an turning knob with a few scales).  Then, when you use the water, you only need to adjust your valves for the right amont of hot and cold water, same as when you use an electric water heater with a tank.

184961[/snapback]

I wonder what the weight is for one of those units. I wonder if the US customs would allow one to be let through as luggage in the plane? Interesting thought.

I liked those heaters myself and thought about this a lot too since my gas bills for heating, taking showers, and hot water for dishes, have reached over $200/mo.

[Yuanyang]

The gas water heater in China can cost less than US$100.  The newer models, can be as high as $200-300 are installed outdoors--the last one I used were installed outside of a bathroom window, there was a small compartment for it already designed into the building.  The control is inside.  You don't need to turn knobs (water and gas valves) every time you use hot water.  You only need to adjust temperature (heating level) once in a while to align with the weather induced air and water temperature change.  This adjustment is very similar to an centrol air-conditioning temperature adjustment unit (an turning knob with a few scales).  Then, when you use the water, you only need to adjust your valves for the right amont of hot and cold water, same as when you use an electric water heater with a tank.

184961[/snapback]

I wonder what the weight is for one of those units. I wonder if the US customs would allow one to be let through as luggage in the plane? Interesting thought.

I liked those heaters myself and thought about this a lot too since my gas bills for heating, taking showers, and hot water for dishes, have reached over $200/mo.

184975[/snapback]

Hmmmm Bringing in a "demo" unit Rick?

[rlheim]

The thought has crossed my mind because I have plenty of kin folk that live in the country. This sure would be a nice thing to have since everything is on propane anyway.

Edited January 22, 2006 by rlheim (see edit history)

[jemmyell]

Hello,

 

I am planning a room addition over my garage. I currently have a Rinnai heater in the design since it is the only vented heater that will fit the space we have allocated. I will look at the Paloma models. You need to be VERY sure that what ever heater you install is to code and is an authorized model. A fire involved with an unauthorized heater will void all your insurance coverage.

 

I personally would NEVER consider an unvented heater. As an engineer I am offended by a design that needs an oxygen sensor to inform the occupants that their heater is about to kill them...

 

I am going to look at the Paloma heaters now since I am working on the room drawings until it warms up enough to go work in my shop today.

 

-James

[Yuanyang]

Hello,

 

I am planning a room addition over my garage.  I currently have a Rinnai heater in the design since it is the only vented heater that will fit the space we have allocated.  I will look at the Paloma models.  You need to be VERY sure that what ever heater you install is to code and is an authorized model.  A fire involved with an unauthorized heater will void all your insurance coverage.

 

I personally would NEVER consider an unvented heater.  As an engineer I am offended by a design that needs an oxygen sensor to inform the occupants that their heater is about to kill them...

 

I am going to look at the Paloma heaters now since I am working on the room drawings until it warms up enough to go work in my shop today.

 

-James

185041[/snapback]

Gulp! Excellent point there James.

[ameriken]

The gas water heater in China can cost less than US$100.  The newer models, can be as high as $200-300 are installed outdoors--the last one I used were installed outside of a bathroom window, there was a small compartment for it already designed into the building.  The control is inside.  You don't need to turn knobs (water and gas valves) every time you use hot water.  You only need to adjust temperature (heating level) once in a while to align with the weather induced air and water temperature change.  This adjustment is very similar to an centrol air-conditioning temperature adjustment unit (an turning knob with a few scales).  Then, when you use the water, you only need to adjust your valves for the right amont of hot and cold water, same as when you use an electric water heater with a tank.

184961[/snapback]

Thanks for the input everyone and the Paloma suggestion.

 

Joanne, your post hits the nail on the head. Jie also estimated about 400 rmb for a cheap unit, and more for the better ones. This is a great price compared to the $1000, 1200, 1400 USD prices I have seen..not including installation !

 

Do you know of any Chinesewebsites/companies that sell this?

 

I can see that others have the same line of thinking as I do....can one of these units be purchased in China shipped to america? If yes, can they be adapted to fit american homes and installed to code?

 

Let me know if you can point me to any other sources. Thanks Joanne

[jemmyell]

Hello,

 

Well, this thread killed my Rinnai heater....

 

BUT what I found was a Takagi T-K Jr-NG (propane units available too).

 

What I love about this design is it can be mounted outside so the venting is easy and room air is NOT used for combustion air. It also has a remote control available for adjusting the water temperature. It can run a shower continuously and it is also rated for Hydronic / Radiant heating usage. This will make it PERFECT for a 440 square foot master bedroom / apartment on top of my garage / shop.

 

Loving Candle had a ventless gas heater in China which DID almost kill her daughter and her. So, she was skeptical even of the direct vented Rinnai tankless water and space heaters I was designing with. She now has radiant hot water heating in China, so she will really like this, and I don't have to give up a portion of my closet space to mount the heater inside.

 

http://www.discounttankless.net/store/TAKAGI01.html

 

-James