The D word¡K.

[jim_julian]

An interesting twist ...

 

When Chinese go to fortune tellers a prime question seems to be how long will the subject of the fortune live.

 

... this has always seemed inconsistent to me with the idea that "if you talk about it, it will happen" ... which seems to be a fairly well established thought in China.

[david_dawei]

An interesting twist ...

 

When Chinese go to fortune tellers a prime question seems to be how long will the subject of the fortune live.

 

... this has always seemed inconsistent to me with the idea that "if you talk about it, it will happen" ... which seems to be a fairly well established thought in China.

181529[/snapback]

certainly an interesting observation... my take is that this is a private inquiry on a practical (and spiritual) level... not something they are discussing with a loved one, friend or family...

[Dean Hall]

Research Paper on the Interplay of Death Between Chinese and Anglo Culture.

 

Chinese cultural dimensions of death, dying, and bereavement: focus group findings

Journal of Cultural Diversity, Summer, 2002 by Alice G. Yick, Rashimi Gupta

 

 

 

For the Chinese, death is associated with bad luck. They fear the corpse and the potential bad luck, which they are exposed to at funerals (Hill, 1992). Consequently, they will often turn their backs to the open coffin. The first author remembers vividly when as a young child, her mother told her it was necessary to pay respect to the deceased, but forbade her to look at the body. Candy is given to the guests who have come to mourn and is to be eaten immediately with the wrapper discarded before reaching home so as to ward off bad luck (Klass & Goss, 1998).

 

 

INDINGS

 

Chinese Attitudes and Beliefs about Death and Dying

 

One recurrent theme is that death is a taboo topic. Focus groups participants mentioned that the Chinese do not like to discuss death because it is associated with evil and bad luck. Because open coffins are common in funerals, some avoid looking directly at the body because of the concern that it will bring bad luck into their lives. The first author remembers her mother whispering in her ear as a child, admonishing her not to look at the body when they went to a funeral. This notion was reinforced by one of the MSW students:

 

"You don't look at the funerals cars going by. Close relatives did not take

me to funerals because it was considered that the death would bring bad

luck. You were not allowed to look at the body or the coffin (MV, MSW

Student Focus Group)

 

Consequently, Chinese families will not discuss death and issues of dying for fear of invoking bad luck. When necessary, they will talk about it in an indirect way, employing many euphemisms. Some service providers say that this makes it very difficult to assist the elderly with wills.

 

"The first thing I learned from the elders is that you don't talk about

death in a direct way.".... But for the older folks, you have to find

another way to express that fact. For, example, terms like: "That the end

of the journey or time to go home." (EL, Pastors Focus Group).

 

"With my father, we approached him with the topic. I said to him that he

should consider doing a will ... But they don t want to hear it. They

think: What do you mean, do you expect me to die. Talking about it will

bring bad luck (IC, Service Provider).

 

The fear of bringing bad luck to oneself or others is also exemplified in the notion that certain gifts or colors symbolize death. For example, the Chinese would never consider giving handkerchiefs as gifts because they symbolize tears, grief, and death. In addition, the color of white symbolizes death, while the color red conveys luck and good fortune. In ancient Chinese customs, brides wear red gowns to symbolize happiness and good fortunate, unlike Western wedding apparel. Consequently, wearing a white ribbon in one's hair is considered bad luck.

 

The Chinese also believe that the relationship between the dead and the living is continuous. Although the deceased is no longer on earth, they are alive in the after-life. The spirits of the deceased continue to live on, and the responsibility, of the living family members is to provide care. This is a part of the concept of filial piety. Failure to provide for the deceased will bring bad luck not only to the immediate family but also to the entire family clan. Participants in all the groups consistently mentioned that the spirits continue to remain on earth.

 

"My family believes that the sprats are still alive. Each year we still

pray, and we believe the person is still there and that they re a guiding

spirit. (No name, MSW Student Focus Group).

 

"Even ordinary people, after they die, we believe that their spirit will

live on. We believe that our ancestors and all our descendants will always

have a relationship." (YS, Pastors Focus Group).

 

"We believe that the spirit is still around during this period.... you

really want to show respect to the dead during this period, so that they

will be left in peace (LT, Service Provider Focus Group).

 

Although death is considered a taboo and bad luck, when elderly people die, the Chinese believe they have lived along life, and there is some joy resulting from this knowledge. However, when children die, the Chinese believe that this is not consistent with the natural order of life. The Chinese have an adage that says something to the effect that the "white hair does not send dark hair away." When a child does die, the family considers the death very shameful and will condemn themselves, believing that the gods have not blessed them. Participants disclosed that the parents of the deceased child often will not attend the funeral.

 

"It is not,a natural death ... They will condemn themselves--"I must have

done something bad. It is something very bad, something very shameful ...

and people with gray hair don t go to the funeral Of young people with

black hair (DS, Service Provider Focus Group).

 

"Now if you are good, you will have long life and a lot of kids. All the

kids will live long and will be successful. However, if suddenly, your kid

dies, there is something wrong. The god did not bless you. So if the

parents are white headed and old, older than the dead person, they won't

attend the funeral." (EL, Pastors Focus Group)

[mercator]

don't give four of anything (four sounds like d-word)

don't give clocks (clock sounds like the d-word)

 

mucho bad luck to discuss death or even something that remotely sounds like the word for death.

[Joanne]

My hubby's new mobile number is awful. It ends with 9454, sounds like it is indeed me who die. B)

[ameriken]

My hubby's new mobile number is awful.  It ends with 9454, sounds like it is indeed me who die.     B)   

181743[/snapback]

Yes, just talked with Jie about this, and jiu si wu si (9454) , sounds like jiu shi wo si "am I the one who will die"

 

To me it sounds like an easy # to remember...........

Edited January 12, 2006 by ameriken (see edit history)

[tywy_99]

I could never understand why death would be synonymous with bad luck when none of us can avoid or escape it anyways? Death is a part of Life; right?

 

Regardless of when, how, where or why one dies, it's going to inevitably happen.

[Dennis143]

I could never understand why death would be synonymous with bad luck when none of us can avoid or escape it anyways? Death is a part of Life; right?

 

Regardless of when, how, where or why one dies, it's going to inevitably happen. 

181754[/snapback]

Yep, of course you are right Ty. I tried this rationale with LieQin early on. Seems some beliefs are too deeply engrained to try to use our Western rationalization. I can't nor won't go there again.

[ameriken]

I could never understand why death would be synonymous with bad luck when none of us can avoid or escape it anyways? Death is a part of Life; right?

 

Regardless of when, how, where or why one dies, it's going to inevitably happen. 

181754[/snapback]

Yes, we know it will happen, but the chinese see it as bad luck upon the parents when a child dies an EARLY death.

 

It is the early death that is associated with the bad luck.

[david_dawei]

The four cornerstones (and goals) of the chinese seem to be:

- Health

- Happiness

- Longevity

- Luck

 

Wealth is often counted as another sought after goal, but is clearly more difficult to realize.

 

They also appear in combinations: Red is a symbol of both happiness and luck.. Thus, an interdependence does occur as things that bring luck will often bring happiness...

 

I know that my wife often will say 'not to think'... and I am certain that she does this as a means of avoiding thoughts that grow to unhappy ones... and unhappy ones can bring bad luck (thus, the interdependence works in both directions).

 

---

 

There is the asian [somewhat daoist] story of the farmer who was lazy and didn't want to work... went to a farm where a chicken ran square into him and died! This [death and good luck!!] made him quite happy as he now had some dinner to bring home. And each day, he would return to this farm and stand around.. hoping for another 'strike' of good luck..

[SirLancelot]

I'm not an expert, but I'd like to comment.

 

This is not something you're going to hear directly from most Chinese people, but here are some of the interplay.

 

1) Many of you guys are mildly to significantly older than your Chinese SOs (10-25 or more years older). The odds are indeed against you in living longer than your wife. So it's a certainty in their minds you'll pass on sooner and they don't want to be reminded of that fact. This adds to their denial of the d-word.

 

2) It is almost necessary for a traditional Chinese wife to cry or shed tears at the mention of her husband's death, especially if by her Chinese husband. This shows the husband that she respects her husband and feels greatly sadden at his eventual loss. It's almost a prelude to the eventual funeral. You couldn't see your wife cry when you've passed on, but while you're alive, you can see her cry and thus get a sense of her sadness upon your passing. It is a trait that's passed on and is NOT conscious. It is not like the women are trained to behave this way, but it's nevertheless passed on.

 

3) It is this way with parents as well. Confucian respect. Adult children, especially daughters, will cry at the mention of the d-word by a parent, especially the father. It shows the parent that the child will indeed bereave for them when they depart. As I say above, it's not concsious, but it is definitely there. If the child does not, it would be very strange.

 

Again, there is no one telling the women that they must cry on cue or something, but it's something that is passed on from generation to generation. The very young generation is starting to be a little different, but the more traditional SOs from the more rural parts of China, especially those 40 years and older, should react in this manner.

 

Just my two cents. Don't kill the messenger please.

 

I know that I have read comments before about this subject, but cannot find them.

 

It seems that I cannot, nor should not, ever mention death to LeiQin. We often tell each other how much we love each other, throughout our day. She will often sit on my lap and ask me ¨You love me?〃 and I'd often answer ¨I love you forever. I will love you until the day I die.〃 Oh, oh, not good. She will place her hand over my mouth and tell me ¨No say. Not like.〃 She will often tear up, just at the mere mention of my death. Iˇve learned not to say this.

 

At first, I tried to rationalize with her about this. I said, ¨Darling, we both will grow old someday and everyone must die sometime.〃 She would hear nothing of it. It was as if I was laying a curse, by even mentioning it. I donˇt know if itˇs a Chinese superstition or if itˇs from the sudden loss of her first American husband or maybe a combination. What most of us see as practical and pragmatic in preparing for death, Chinese seem to avoid any mention of the subject. As Christians, I try to remove any superstitions by telling her that Jesus brought us together and he will continue to keep us safe and that she does not need to worry. This does seem to calm her and stop her crying.

 

I am getting everything set up for her for when I leave this earth, someday. I want her to be taken care of forever. It just pains me to think of her having to go through the hardship she endured from the loss of her first American husband. So, I have changed her to my beneficiary and I am making a will. Early on, I tried to explain to her that I have been preparing for her care, if I should die, so that sheˇll never have to worry again and never have to experience what she went through. Not good. It only made her cry.

 

So, there doesnˇt seem to be a way for me to explain these matters to her. I am setting up my will so that the executor will have instructions on how to explain these things to her.

 

Now that I know this is taboo and she will cry at the thought of loosing me, I will never mention the D word to her again.

Edited November 10, 2006 by SirLancelot (see edit history)

[LeeFisher3]

I had a real advantage using the D word provided by the lovely folks at DMV who demanded my wife answer the organ donor question with a full understanding. I was able to get my wife to allow me to talk about the subject, but it was preceded with:

 

IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF

 

Since that day I have been able to approach the subject for a couple of situations:

1. Who would care for our son? US law might want him to return to blood relatives in China.

2. Living Will, she saw the coverage in Florida where the family was fighting over pulling the plug. Plus it didn't hurt to explain how much money was lost in probate.

 

I just am very careful to prepare my statement with IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF and walk lightly. Knowing how to duck is another good attribute.

[SmilingAsia]

Dennis, tell her you'll stay strong, healthy for her, forever.

Her former husand died, which was a disaster that once devoured her, much worse than a divorce. The D word really makes her uneasy.

 

For a heavy smoker in Iraq, he'd be very happy if you wish him die of lung cancer

[jemmyell]

Dennis,

 

Indeed this is a taboo subject. Just find a VERY reliable third party estate executor and let them know they need to attend to your wife FIRST, before she assumes she is on the street again. It would probably be best if they contacted her the first day.

 

Of course this is only academic since I have already promised Loving Candle that I will live forever to care for her and her daughter!

 

-James

[david_dawei]

When in the US together, we often say [in chinese] the word for hungry or tired as in; hungry to death or tire to death... Well, when we were in china, I let my guard down and due to frequent use of those terms, I once said one of them in public...

 

Here's what happened next to me:

Edited November 11, 2006 by DavidZixuan (see edit history)