Jeikun
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Posts posted by Jeikun
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As far as I know, China does block something from other countries.
Experience the joy of surfing the web just as it is in the PRC...
60,000 internet watchdogs are watching YOU and working tirelessly to protect you from yourself... 
and we have US companies like Cisco, Microsoft and Yahoo more than happy to assist them in both infrastructure and monitoring.
BTW: In the almost cumulative 8 months I've been in China, I can't recall really having that much of an issue in web restriction... I usually bring my work... and I still have time to go to all the porn, free movies and chatrooms I attend B)
I just Googled Charter 08 and came up with about 80,000 hits. I'm in China and was able to access the ones I clicked on ... even the Wiki article. So much for censorship in China.
That said, yes, the government in China does censor stuff ... maybe even a lot of stuff. But who amongst our lobotomy candidates here will say that the US government doesn't hide stuff from their citizens?
If anybody here were smart enough to understand even a little about Chinese history, they'd know that one of the reasons development was slow during the thousands of years under various dynasties was because every few years there would be a revolution -- usually started by poor, uneducated farmers for little valid reason.
Part of the reason the government of 1.4+ billion people -- the vast majority of them poor, uneducated farmers -- maintains a tight control (though not as tight as before) is because they want little to incite another revolution. Even a lobotomy wouldn't help anybody here who thinks that China -- or the world even -- would be better off if China suffered a Soviet Union style collapse or fell victim to another revolution.
Welcome to Hyperbole land! Where lobotomies are free and everyone who doesn't see the light is a drooling tard!! More enlightenment please!! I feel my frontal lobe regenerating already!!! Yaaay!!!
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In a country where one race think they are more prestigious than the others, the government doesnt have a right to bash other countries about human rights. I think most of the members know exactly what I am talking about after their SO experience all the hardship of going through all the visa process, applying for jobs.....
Yeah, yeah... white power... yawn..
You find what you look for.
to deny racism to chinese in usa is the same as denying you breath air
I must breathe water then.
Are there racist individuals? Of course there are. Just as there are everywhere. But John's post carried an implication that it was institutionalized and/or epidemic in that it made our country hypocritical to "bash" other countries on human rights (which was off topic and out of left field anyway). That I wholeheartedly deny, and I am sorry if your experience has been a negative one with regards to racism, there is no excusing it. But I hold a firm belief that the majority of Americans will judge you by your actions and personality before they judge you by your race.
Dont always pick on a country just because it has a different system than yours. It is very immature.
I don't think I picked on anyone. Besides... lil' ol me can pick on a country of 1.2 billion? Even I'm not that egomaniacal. Just opinions tis all... in this thread it was a Chinese treastie on Democracy anyway... were they picking on themselves?
Then leave the Chinese alone. Dont get involved.
"Leave the Chinese alone"? I'm posting my opinion on a messageboard, not harassing people. Everyone else including you is free to post their opinions that is what this site is for. This isn't Sunshine Mountain, or Happy Chinese Funland board. It's a serious issue, and most of being involved with Chinese family members have some concern about.
Talk is talk... nothing more. This board is made for it.
So get off of me, already. I'm not here to please you.
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Apples and oranges. "Basic" human rights can occur under many different systems. However people get there isn't issue, it's that they GET there.
Like I said, depends on how you define basic. You put it in quotes yourself, so you must at least partially agree.
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In a country where one race think they are more prestigious than the others, the government doesnt have a right to bash other countries about human rights. I think most of the members know exactly what I am talking about after their SO experience all the hardship of going through all the visa process, applying for jobs.....
Yeah, yeah... white power... yawn..
You find what you look for.
to deny racism to chinese in usa is the same as denying you breath air
I must breathe water then.
Are there racist individuals? Of course there are. Just as there are everywhere. But John's post carried an implication that it was institutionalized and/or epidemic in that it made our country hypocritical to "bash" other countries on human rights (which was off topic and out of left field anyway). That I wholeheartedly deny, and I am sorry if your experience has been a negative one with regards to racism, there is no excusing it. But I hold a firm belief that the majority of Americans will judge you by your actions and personality before they judge you by your race.
Dont always pick on a country just because it has a different system than yours. It is very immature.
I don't think I picked on anyone. Besides... lil' ol me can pick on a country of 1.2 billion? Even I'm not that egomaniacal. Just opinions tis all... in this thread it was a Chinese treastie on Democracy anyway... were they picking on themselves?
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Sorry if we fail your English lesson . . .
Just shining the light of linguistic truth into the darkness of emotional misinterpretation pard'ner. It wasn't my quote being questioned anyway. I saw no reason to pick on a poor little word though.
I meant hers not yours - I just thought it ironic that we would be held to the meaning of the word "enjoy" chosen by a Chinese.
I realized that as soon as I posted and stood up from my desk lol but t'was too late. Open mouth, insert foot... hahaha sorry... I keep doing that to you.
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what i find interesting is that china has 1000's of years of shaping its culture and political identity and beliefs. yet again we see here western expressing a "superiority belief" that it is better to "enjoy" your system, freedoms and beliefs.
Roger my family "enjoy" the chinese way, please feel free to enjoy your way, but please stop telling us yours is better.maybe for you it is but then you are not chinese.
1000 years just ain't what it used to be, especially when 950 of them was under some sort of authoritarian rule.
Nobody is telling anybody what to "enjoy"
see post #22
But I'm sorry if it's laughable to suggest that the Chinese people enjoy anything approaching what Americans have in the arena of human rights, freedoms, and guarantee of the rule of law..
The word "enjoy" is used in a different context - the Chinese (and American) people have what rights they have ("enjoy" them, as Roger put it) - whether they receive pleasure from them is a different matter
the context "enjoys" implies better not pleasure . something china needs to reach. implies a superoir position.
Actually it means by definition in this case "to have the use or benefit of". No position superior or otherwise implied.
of course the implication is of a superior position.
Webster's dictionary would disagree with you.
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In a country where one race think they are more prestigious than the others, the government doesnt have a right to bash other countries about human rights. I think most of the members know exactly what I am talking about after their SO experience all the hardship of going through all the visa process, applying for jobs.....
Yeah, yeah... white power... yawn..
You find what you look for.
to deny racism to chinese in usa is the same as denying you breath air
I must breathe water then.
Are there racist individuals? Of course there are. Just as there are everywhere. But John's post carried an implication that it was institutionalized and/or epidemic in that it made our country hypocritical to "bash" other countries on human rights (which was off topic and out of left field anyway). That I wholeheartedly deny, and I am sorry if your experience has been a negative one with regards to racism, there is no excusing it. But I hold a firm belief that the majority of Americans will judge you by your actions and personality before they judge you by your race.
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sorry, you all are following the British and French in past in the belief you are best and rest of world should follow your beliefs and system(make the world american), which we see work so well this years.
time for america to mature and realise they are not #1 or best, have no right to dictate to others, soon usa will be behind china, India, europe as economys , the others will maybe will be shaping you to change. maybe it will mean president and govenment "for the people" not busniss, a socialist america, not run by freemasons and rich business men.
america needs to learn from others too
If the whole world was American, it wouldn't be worth living in, so thank goodness it isn't. I do agree with you that many americans, and many Americal foreign policies push our agenda on others.
So has every world power, traditionally. Hopefully when China is #1 it will carry the torch better than we, but humans are humans regardless of nationality, and those in power tend to manuver to stay that way, so I won't hold my breath.
I don't think this thread had to be about that though. It's sad it couldn't be discussed on charter 08 itself. It's democratic in nature, yes, but it is also Chinese. There are Chinese people who want, and advocate democracy, just as there are Americans who do not. Democracy is not an American invention, after all.
I would find that to be the more interesting discussion. I personally enjoy the freedoms my country provides me, so of course I look at life through that filter. But I am not dictating foreign policy to China, I am merely giving my opinion. Reality won't warp itself to fit or oppose my view regardless of how eloquently or foolishly I state my opinion.
We can share different views, opinions, and desires and benefit from reading those of others without the antipathy that brings out the defensiveness and attacks... well theoretically we could.
And sorry, Jin. I quoted you, but my reply started to you, then became more general. I'm not pointing a finger at you or anything.
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Sorry if we fail your English lesson . . .
Just shining the light of linguistic truth into the darkness of emotional misinterpretation pard'ner. It wasn't my quote being questioned anyway. I saw no reason to pick on a poor little word though.
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what i find interesting is that china has 1000's of years of shaping its culture and political identity and beliefs. yet again we see here western expressing a "superiority belief" that it is better to "enjoy" your system, freedoms and beliefs.
Roger my family "enjoy" the chinese way, please feel free to enjoy your way, but please stop telling us yours is better.maybe for you it is but then you are not chinese.
1000 years just ain't what it used to be, especially when 950 of them was under some sort of authoritarian rule.
Nobody is telling anybody what to "enjoy"
see post #22
But I'm sorry if it's laughable to suggest that the Chinese people enjoy anything approaching what Americans have in the arena of human rights, freedoms, and guarantee of the rule of law..
The word "enjoy" is used in a different context - the Chinese (and American) people have what rights they have ("enjoy" them, as Roger put it) - whether they receive pleasure from them is a different matter
the context "enjoys" implies better not pleasure . something china needs to reach. implies a superoir position.
Actually it means by definition in this case "to have the use or benefit of". No position superior or otherwise implied.
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In a country where one race think they are more prestigious than the others, the government doesnt have a right to bash other countries about human rights. I think most of the members know exactly what I am talking about after their SO experience all the hardship of going through all the visa process, applying for jobs.....
Yeah, yeah... white power... yawn..
You find what you look for.
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China seems like a relatively free country as long as:
A. You shut up and do as you are told
B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government
Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.
How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.
Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.
Rose was never my color.
My wife wants to know were did you get your info? As far as she can tell, you are wrong about "A and B".
Like yours and hers my evidence is anecdotal, unless one of us has some form of omnipotence. I will forward that most of that sort of information comes from my wife. So that "my wife says _____ and she's a really for real Chinese person, so it's true." argument is as BS as if you or I expected that our experience as Americans summed up total irrefutable knowledge of America. So spare me.
The thread started out about an very interesting paper written by Chinese people. Why mentioning democracy and China in the same paragraph always devolves into an argument about who has the biggest cock, I will never know.
My wife says, "if it was posted, then we the Chinese have the freedom of speech" and she will NEVER agree with you on this subject.
It was, but was fervently deleted and a search on a major chinese search engine will turn up nothing now. That doesn't sound like freedom of speech to me.
But, it's not necessary for your wife or you to agree with me on anything. My opinion is worth nothing, and costs nothing. I disagree on a daily basis with lots of people I like very much. It ain't no thang, brutha'
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Basic human rights is not an attribute that is exclusive to democracy.
hmmm... maybe all democracies do (or did) not honor several basic human rights, but I'm not so sure that communist states, monarchies, dictatorships, etc ever do. Unless you redifine what qualifies as basic.
Unless you have a closed mind you will recognize the fallacy of your post. China is evolving. It is becoming a little freer with each passing day.
My first 30 day trip to China was in 1978. The changes in 30 years are staggering.
Not exactly. I very much recognize that human rights and freedoms have grown in China by leaps and bounds in the past 30 years. But I also do not see how that conflicts with my statement. Show me an authoritarian or one party government that honors all basic human rights, and I will reconsider my statement. Of course, again, I have to admit it depends on what you define as basic. If you pare what us considered "basic" human rights down to 1 to 3 things, then maybe you have an argument there.
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China seems like a relatively free country as long as:
A. You shut up and do as you are told
B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government
Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.
How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.
Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.
Rose was never my color.
My wife wants to know were did you get your info? As far as she can tell, you are wrong about "A and B".
Like yours and hers my evidence is anecdotal, unless one of us has some form of omnipresence. I will submit that most of that sort of information comes from my wife. So that "my wife says _____ and she's a really for real Chinese person, so it's true." argument is as BS as if you or I expected that our experience as Americans summed up total irrefutable knowledge of America. So spare me, I've heard that 1,000 times if I've heard it once.
The thread started out about a very interesting paper written by Chinese people. Why mentioning democracy and China in the same paragraph always devolves into an argument about who has the biggest schlong, I will never know.
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Basic human rights is not an attribute that is exclusive to democracy.
hmmm... maybe all democracies do (or did) not honor several basic human rights, but I'm not so sure that communist states, monarchies, dictatorships, etc ever do. Unless you redifine what qualifies as basic.
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I guess if you believe that there is only an American style of democracy denoted in this pole then I can see the argument here.
However, democracy can take many forms and China would not have to take on the form that the U.S. has. And I guess in the end you would not even need to have a democracy to have liberties and rule of law favorable for people to live by.
No, I don't believe that democracy should be forced on every country. Each government has the right to screw it's citizens over however they see fit. It is up to the citizens to change that.
Humankind unfortunately has a long way to go before the world becomes a garden of eden, and not in a religious sense.
You are right. A government system that by definition is "by the people" is kind of hard to buy when forced on them... kind of defeats the purpose. Also I agree, the USA's form of representitive democracy isn't the only game in town, and while our system vs other democratic systems is one debate... any democratic system when chosen by the people is preferrable to tyranny.
That's why I think Charter 08 is interesting. It's a Chinese paper on reform. Do I think it will be a basis for change anytime in the near future? No
but it represents a slow evolution of political thought that may one day lead to the reforms it outlines (and I think the CCP agrees which is why if you do a search on it on china google, baidu, etc you get big 0) -
China seems like a relatively free country as long as:
A. You shut up and do as you are told
B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government
Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.
How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.
Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.
Rose was never my color.
Jason,
While I agree with you in part, I do disagree with your suggestion that ex-pats live in foreign cultures wear rose-colored glasses because the people of the country extend special privileges and kindness to them.
While this can happen initially for some, the rubber begins to meet the road usually within a few weeks of arrival. That's right, the newness wears off, and one is able to view things a bit more objectively.
Let me just say that in my case, there were no special provisions provided me in my workplace. I do not have a cultural and language translator following me about to assist me with everyday challenges. Many of the emails I open every day are written in Chinese, and the ones that are written in English, must be read carefully to understand the writer's intention. Also, many of the meetings and events I attend are conducted in Chinese. While I am an employee of my company, and resident in China, I am indeed a foreigner in every respect. I am easily spotted as being a foreigner wherever I go, and have never received a special courtesy for being one. To the contrary, most merchants will attempt to charge me more for something I want to buy.
Many of the streets are dirty, because many Chinese think of the streets a being a place to dispose of packaging material, or a quick place to take a piss. Trying to do either in the US will often get you a stiff fine or arrested in the case of public urination.
Because very few people speak English in China, when I walk into a store, or hail a cab I must use my wits and limited Chinese language ability to get by. If I want to get around from place to place in town, I must resist the fear of getting lost somewhere, or being taken to the wrong place.
Several people try working and living in China, but very few stay. I've talked to several English teachers who were burnt out after working one year, and while they were glad for the experience, few would try it again. Those that do stay however, seem to have found a niche, or it just may be as simple as discovering that they actually like it here, despite the vast differences between what they experienced in the West.
When it comes to the poor of China, I see a huge difference between them, and what you see in America. For example, few white folk would ever dare take a walk in a poor ethnic community in America, simply because you may leave the area in a body bag. You will find many of these American communities in heavy states of disrepair, with many able bodied men circulating or sitting about on the streets doing nothing, claiming they can't find jobs.
In contrast, you will find many in the poor rural communities also doing what they can to get by; selling vegetables, trinkets, cooking street food, collecting trash, and so on. They are much more active, and most of the families that you find broken in the US, remain intact for life in China.
It's really not rose-colored glasses at all, but simply of different way of looking at the way things are in the world.
Oh, of those things I have no doubt, Jesse. I didn't intend to imply life must be a cakewalk for you because you are an American in China. I meant if stopped by the police for something minor you would be less likely to be cracked in the head, etc. Also less likely to be extorted or pushed around from those in a position of authority. On the flip side I guess a foreigner might be MORE likely to be taken advantage of by certain unscrupulous elements (like those who go to teach etc and don't check out their employer well enough) but I was just talking about government and personal freedom, not life in general.
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This whole thread is a joke, right?
What Einstein can even suggest that China should somehow modify their political system to come more in line with that of the US? Talk about laughable.
The thread was about a document put forth by a group of Chinese living in China, some prominent people, and signed by many more. Also banned heavily. So I guess any time a native Chinese has some notion of democracy it is laughable.
So while your reply is about "Bushitic dreams" (gag) of forcing democracy down China (and other's throat)... your post in actuality is a foreigner making light of, insulting, and even mocking a NATIVE CHINESE effort to affect change in their own system. (Though I guess I can understand since it's VERY hard to find it mentioned on the Chinese internet now)
And if you actually take the time to read charter 08, it's not about adopting an American system. Rather it's about democratic and republican reforms within China's existing system. We may have got things rolling worldwide, but we aren't the only Republic the last time I checked.
As far as the bit about the electoral college and "one man one vote"... that's just a catchphrase anyway. The Electoral college exists to protect from the tyranny of the majority. We are a union of states with differing economic, geographic, and lifestyle realities... lack of an electoral college puts all national elections in the hands of the coastal population centers. If those "smaller less urbanized states" had no say in our federal government, then why should they be part of the union? Democracy is a horrible form of government for anything above a small town level, and debatable even then. We are a REPUBLIC.
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China seems like a relatively free country as long as:
A. You shut up and do as you are told
B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government
Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.
How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.
Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.
Rose was never my color.
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Chinese IUD is a disease box, and if your wife has one in her body it should be out as soon as possible.
Western style is designed for easy removal. Chinese style is designed to be difficult to remove. Chinese doctors will lie to a woman and recommend the Chinese style and say the western style is more prone to infection, when in fact it is the opposite.
This is because in the US birth control is purely elective. In China it is policy.
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Jeff,
Seems your dilemma has been resolved so I won't add my two cents on that. I would like to add a little perspective on the cost aspect though in case you decide to try again or a visitor to Candle is considering a visa adventure in China.
I took three trips to see my now-wife. We stayed in nice hotels the whole time, ate out nearly every meal and did lots of touristy stuff. All that combined with all fees and incidentals involved in the visa process came to about $15,000. This figure has been cited by quite a few others here who've been two to four times.
The $30,000 figure is too steep IMHO, especially for someone considering only one trip. Just didn't want you or anyone else to get scared off by that higher figure.
Good luck with your future search.
I agree. I went over twice. Part of the time in a hotel, part in a subletted apartment, part with her/family. I don't think I spent over $10,000. Of course fees were lower then, but I also had the services of a lawyer which balances that part out pretty much.
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I have to say this is my favorite part:
But on Monday, the Beijing News newspaper published an investigative report that said provincial officials in a city in eastern Shandong province committed petitioners complaining about local corruption or land seizures to mental hospitals.If you're not happy in Shandong you must be crazy
lol. -
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28157293/
AP - updated 6:56 a.m. PT, Wed., Dec. 10, 2008
BEIJING - Two dozen people protested outside China's Foreign Ministry in downtown Beijing on Wednesday, using the 60th anniversary of the U.N.'s Universal Declaration of Human Rights to decry a myriad of alleged government abuses.
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Officials' Sexy U.S. Adventures Exposed When Receipts Found on Shanghai Subway
BEIJING ¡ª The Chinese bureaucrats who spent taxpayers' money on a $700-a-night Las Vegas hotel and visits to Hawaiian beaches and a San Francisco sex show might have gotten away with it if someone hadn't lost a bag on the Shanghai subway.
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And this is somehow unique to Chinese government officials????
I'm sure no one would imply that.
"turn toward a system of liberties, democracy, and rule of law...
in The Middle Kingdom - 中国
Posted · Edited by Jeikun (see edit history)
Thanks a million times, David. Your post is actually on topic and thoughtful. I agree with you that China may develop a form of democracy the world hasn't seen before (or something unique). They developed communism into something often quite different from Marx's ideas after all. Also that there's no definative reason to believe it will happen in the next 100 years, or happen all at once.
Also I like what you said about other factors that balance out the quality of life, often overlooked by outsiders. There are a few "hell" countries on earth, but China is FAR from them. Chinese people in surveys of satisfaction with their lives routinely rate very high. There isn't room in a book to describe the wonderful things about China.
I did and still do have some doubts about how much the length of national history affects the living generation's perspective, though. The richness of their culture due to that, maybe... but history is history and life is life, and few but the academic and philosopher spend so much time reflecting on it. (Excapt perhaps to whip it out as a weapon kind of how an older adult will say "meh, yer just a kid." to dismiss an argument from a younger one, rather than actually engage the disagreement at face value.)
Thanks for taking the time. I prefer your posts where you disagree, or differ from my opinion because you actually make me think about it from a different perspective.