GZBILL

You must be confused. If you read carefully, we are taling about visa extensions obtainable for spouses of Chinese nationals or PR while inside of China. The topic is not first time visa applicants. I mean, how can you be a first time visa applicant if you are already in China? In any event, for those who have some actual understanding of how things work, the actual regulations as implemented by the Ministry of Public Security & the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, do stipulate that tourists must show financial responsability before being able to extend their visa in-country as well as show round-trip air tickets for your initial visa obtainable from outside of China. These are the regulations. But we all know they are enforced on an ad hoc basis. Welcome to China.

Yeah, 9% in over 12 years.

They are talking about Hong Kongers and those few countries bordering China where vehicular traffic is allowed. You will not see cars with North Korean plates, Vietnamese plates or Indian plates. Yes, certain categories of foreigners (i.e. from non-adjacent countries) can import cars, put they must be new cars and the process takes at least a month to get the necessary paperwork. "L" visa holders are not amongst these and I seriously doubt Beijing will allow this for the Olympics when they already have 3 million domestic vehicles in Beijing and about 50% of them will be banned from driving during the Olympic period. A lie. Don't believe everything you hear. Large motorcycles are available for purchase here, of course, but they are not able to be imported. Also, nobody can drive "everywhere" because there are several cities (i.e. Shanghai, Guangzhou & Beijing, amongst others) where nobody can operate a motorcycle, period. Another issue is that on a tourist visa you may be able to get a temporary license, you cannot get a temporary motorcycle license. The license system is not like in the States where you can get a car license which automatically allows you to operate a motorcycle. A car license and a motorcycle license are two distinct items here. The vast majority of those "L" visa people you have met are really English teachers (over 50% work on "L" visas and "F" visas anyhow) and they stick to rural Hooterville type places just because there they do not get hassled for unlicensed operation ... yet. I know a lot of people like that, too, and the US consulate gets to meet quite a few of these people when they get into an accident and the cops are forced to take action because they were not authorized to operate a motorcycle -- usually 14 days detention and if there is bodily injury it can be a few months. The consulate has a stock of vitamins all ready for these people because that's all the consulate can do: listen to them cry once a month and give them a bottle of vitamins. Not a pretty picture. What kind of vitamins do you prefer? Oh, and renting cars here means you rent the car and pay the rental company's driver to operate the car for you. Operations where you drive the car you rent yourself are very few and far between and I seriously doubt that they will let just anybody with a license rent a car like this unless you have a serious cash downpayment and ties to the country that far surpass an "L" visa.

I take it nobody from the State Department has been outside of the Capital Mall area in D.C. or else to NYC. People there get mugged and shot for a watch -- a cheap Timex.

I'm sorry, I overlooked one slight issue. An expat who has been in China for at least one year on a residence permit issued for either student or employment purposes can purchase a residential property to be used as their principal place of residence. More than one is not supposed to be allowed as is commercial property. Those who have not already been in China at least one year on a residence permit are not supposed to be able to purchase any property. However, if a co-purchaser is a Chinese citizen or PR, then restrictions do not apply -- except in Beijing. In Beijing all housing purchases where one party is not a Chinese citizen or PR must be government vetted to ensure that the property is not too close to government or other sensitive installations.

Ok. A new house follows the process I wrote about in the previous post. Zhongshan is a nice city, not too far from Guangzhou. Still, unlike in the biggest cities, you need to be more careful about the title issue. Once you get to Zhongshan, let me know. We can meet over a pizza in Guangzou! Thanks Bill....I am looking for a ticket to GZ for sometime this fall. I will give you a shout and I would love to meet. Been a long time since I have had pizza but I guess one time will not hurt anything Or there's this great Sichuan style restaurant in Guangzhou called the Chuan Guo Yan Yi. You'd probably like it -- they have something for everyone.

Ok. A new house follows the process I wrote about in the previous post. Zhongshan is a nice city, not too far from Guangzhou. Still, unlike in the biggest cities, you need to be more careful about the title issue. Once you get to Zhongshan, let me know. We can meet over a pizza in Guangzou!

You know, when I first came to China I had the idea that everything a Chinese person told me was stupid because what they'd usually say was just so alien to what we have come to know in the States. Now, after many years, I have learned that Chinese people do most things differently for a perfectly valid reason. Trust your wife on this one. Still, it doesn't matter what percentage of the purchase price you mortgage, since even if it is just 1% the bank will never grant the mortgage unless you are 100% certain to get clear provincial title. When you buy a new home, the maximum mortgage amount is 70% for Chinese purchasers and 50% for foreign purchasers. If you buy together with your wife, you fall under the 70% maximum. There are, however, banks who will allow a mortgage up to 70% for sole foreign buyers even though this is against People's Bank of China (PBOC) rules. The general process goes like this: You identify which house you want to buy and make a purchase offer with an initial deposit of a few thousand RMB. Within a few days you must return to increase that initial deporit to 20% of the purchase price. I cannot stress this enough: Read the purchase documents carefully! This is the one time in your life where being anal retentive is a virtue! Oral agreements / promises are worthless. Then you apply for the mortgage and, once approved, you pay the developer the remaining difference between the mortgage amount and the home purchase price. The mortgage application process is light years easier than in the States. The purchaser(s) presents ID / Passport, hukou book, proof of employment and income statements from their employer. The bank's attorney will give you an appointment to come in and sign a bunch of documents and then you just go home and wait until it is approved -- generally in a couple of weeks. The fees for mortgage application and bank's attorney fees are about RMB 800. You need tio purchase obligatory fire insurance through the PICC and that depends on the value of your home. For example, on a RMB 1,000,000 home that would cost you less than RMB 20,000. This is a one-time fee for the life of the loan. Regarding whether or not you or your wife need to be employed, the answer is no. As long as you can prove that you have either a steady income or else liquid assets (i.e. cash, local bank deposits) that can guarantee your ability to pay the mortgage, you are ok. Choosing which bank to use for the mortgage is also important. You need to check out the prepayment penalties, if any, and the interest rate. Banks are allowed to undercut the official PBOC rate by up to about 15%, but negotiating over an interest rate when you will be paying off the mortgage as soon as you get title may not be worth the hassle. It's up to you. Also, some banks have extra fees for prepayment. I have almost always used ICBC (Industrial & Commercial Bank of China) for my mortgages and they are good. The only catch is that any early payments must be at least 10% of the original mortgage amount, but there are no fees. Another factor is that some banks make you jump through more hoops and give you the document run-around. ICBC, for example, only requires an official translation of your passport done locally at a cost of about RMB 75. Actually, the bank's lawyer will do it for you if you want. Other banks, such as China Construction Bank, will require you to obtain documentation from the Chinese embassy in the US that your passport is valid. That can be a major pain in the neck! Bank of China is also a pain in the neck in that regard. Which city will you purchase your home in? Will it be a new home?

For conversion of US$ to RMB you can transfer in and convert a virtually unlimited amount. The problem arises when you want to convert US$ to RMB. When the issue is exchanging RMB to US$, you have several options. One is that a Chinese citizen or Chinese permanent resident can freely convert up to $50k per year for virtually any reason simply upon producing their ID card. All others have to jump through hoops and face many restrictions. A new rule allows any foreigner to convert RMB to up to $500 per day -- definitely a hassle for large amounts. However, when converting the RMB realized from the sale of a property which was your principal place of residence, there is no limit. You first need to apply to SAFE (State Administration of Foreign Exchange) for approval though, which is not very difficult. You do know that an expat can only purchase one property and that property must be your principal place of residence, right? One way around this is by purchasing the property jointly with a Chinese citizen or PR. Thanks Bill. This house will be a retirement home or I might possibly go to live there sooner. I will let my wife do all of the transactions so I see it as a fairly simple deal. I assume I can wire the money to the seller of the house without much problem now. It will be less than 50000 USD. One thing I'd suggest is to have your name listed on the title as well. Not that you shouldn't trust your wife, but there is an extremely practical reason for having your name on the title. Should you ever decide to apply for permanent residency, having your name on the title of the home is prima facie evidence of meeting the requirement of "stable" residence. Yes this has already been agreed on. It was her idea to put my name on it. This is good. It is an almost sure way to meet the "stable residence" requirement when you apply for PR. Oh, and I forgot to mention that it is a definite plus if you should need credit from local banks. One thing to be careful about when purchasing a home is whether or not the seller has the ability to pass clear, legal title. Title is something that can be pretty tricky as there are several forms of what they call "title," but there is only one form which is 100% kosher and guarantees you actually own the home and not lose it on a whim of some low-level government bureaucrat. Basically speaking, there are about 3 main types of "title": 1. The government deeds the land to a farmer for agricultural purposes. Many times the farmers endorse this deed and "sell" the land for housing development. This is not kosher and people often lose their home so easily it can make your head spin. 2. Government land bureaus below the provincial level deed the land to housing developers who then construct housing units. Purchasers are given either collective deeds (one deed covering all the "owners" in the building) or else even individual deeds. These deeds have the seal of the local land bureau office below provincial level. These are also not kosher. This type of thing happens quite a bit, actually, and in addition to the often happening worst-case scenario of losing the home, there is a best-case scenario where you can never sell the home because nobody is crazy enough to accept the deed you have as clear title. 3. Provincial level land bureaus issue direct title to individual home purchasers. This is the only sceario you should accept. These titles are A4-sized books, either green or red in color, and have the seal and revenue stamp of the provincial government. Sometimes it is difficult to actually know what is going on and you can't always trust or rely on the seller (or even lawyers you may hire) to know or even tell you the truth should they actually know. One fool-proof way of being sure you'll get the provincial land deed is to obtain a mortgage to purchase the house. A mortgage is extremely easy, cheap and quick to obtain and a bank will never allow a mortgage unless the bank itself has ascertained that the house transaction will result in the issuance of a provincial title. You don't have to get a mortgage for the whole amount of the home. You can obtain a mortgage for, say, 10% and then once the title has been issued to you and your wife and you have them in your hands, you pay off the balance on the mortgage early. Oh, and it can take up to a year or so before the government actually issues the title. You don't get that A4-sized book right away after buying the house, so don't worry. This is because there are a lot of hoops to jump through at the various land bureau offices and, as anybody knows, efficiency isn't the name of the game here. But if the bank has let you obtain a mortgage, you know that you will get the title eventually.

For conversion of US$ to RMB you can transfer in and convert a virtually unlimited amount. The problem arises when you want to convert US$ to RMB. When the issue is exchanging RMB to US$, you have several options. One is that a Chinese citizen or Chinese permanent resident can freely convert up to $50k per year for virtually any reason simply upon producing their ID card. All others have to jump through hoops and face many restrictions. A new rule allows any foreigner to convert RMB to up to $500 per day -- definitely a hassle for large amounts. However, when converting the RMB realized from the sale of a property which was your principal place of residence, there is no limit. You first need to apply to SAFE (State Administration of Foreign Exchange) for approval though, which is not very difficult. You do know that an expat can only purchase one property and that property must be your principal place of residence, right? One way around this is by purchasing the property jointly with a Chinese citizen or PR. Thanks Bill. This house will be a retirement home or I might possibly go to live there sooner. I will let my wife do all of the transactions so I see it as a fairly simple deal. I assume I can wire the money to the seller of the house without much problem now. It will be less than 50000 USD. One thing I'd suggest is to have your name listed on the title as well. Not that you shouldn't trust your wife, but there is an extremely practical reason for having your name on the title. Should you ever decide to apply for permanent residency, having your name on the title of the home is prima facie evidence of meeting the requirement of "stable" residence.

Its my idea to drive across China,probably on a motorcycle with sidecar. I expect that I will get a 1 Year China Visa,because I will be married to a Chinese person,so I should be able to get a 1 Year Driving License. My Chinese spouse can "own" the vehicle. I would like to be able to drive from China to Laos/Thailand,or to Kazakhstan/Russia/Europe. (I think there are situations where a "foreigner" is not allowed to drive the vehicle across the border,but can easily hire a driver for the actual border crossing.) Unless you have a resident permit allowing work or study in China and have held such for at least one year, you are not eligible to obtain a license in China. This rule may not be enforced very strictly in smaller cities and towns. You can, however, buy a vehicle in your name without limitations. The rule is: have cash, can own.

For conversion of US$ to RMB you can transfer in and convert a virtually unlimited amount. The problem arises when you want to convert US$ to RMB. When the issue is exchanging RMB to US$, you have several options. One is that a Chinese citizen or Chinese permanent resident can freely convert up to $50k per year for virtually any reason simply upon producing their ID card. All others have to jump through hoops and face many restrictions. A new rule allows any foreigner to convert RMB to up to $500 per day -- definitely a hassle for large amounts. However, when converting the RMB realized from the sale of a property which was your principal place of residence, there is no limit. You first need to apply to SAFE (State Administration of Foreign Exchange) for approval though, which is not very difficult. You do know that an expat can only purchase one property and that property must be your principal place of residence, right? One way around this is by purchasing the property jointly with a Chinese citizen or PR.

I know someone who got one of those 2-year multi-entry L visas. I believe it's also restricted to 90 days per visit. I believe all visas obtained outside of China are restricted to 90 days per visit--with the exception of perhaps Hong Kong. In order to receive visas for stays longer than 90 days, you most likely will have to get one from inside China (or HK). Roger, you have more checking to do. If your wife is of a certain age and she has real estate property, she may be able to stay in China for longer periods of time--even if she becomes a USC. But check into this next time you're in China for a visit. Actually, holding real estate offers almost nothing in terms of visa issuance especially in light of the somewhat new rules that prohibit foreigners from owning commercial property and limiting residential property ownership to a total of one unit, which must be one's principal place of residence. If one owns property (and has the title in their name), the Chinese consulate would usually issue a 6-month "L" tourist visa instead of the usual 90-day visa. But this visa was still limited to something like 60 days per stay. There is a category under which people over 60 can apply for permanent residency, but the requirements are onerous. First of all, the person must have direct relatives with which they will live in China and not have any living relatives abroad. This has been held to mean that someone under this category cannot have a living spouse abroad that is also not entitled to apply independently for permanent residence under this provision. Other requirements are similar to those who apply based on marriage to a qualifying person: 1. Have already lived continuously for 5 years in China; 2. Have a stable residence; and 3. A secure income source.

You're right. As much as we (i.e. everybody) complain about the bureacracy and unfair regulations in the States, compared with the situation in China we should feel lucky. Very lucky.

Yes, Chinese-Americans may apply for a 24-month "L" visa, but that doesn't mean it will be approved. I've had a number of C-A friends who wanted to come and visit and none of them was able to get a 24-month "L" visa. This is a common thing in China: the laws or regulations say a thing is possible, but then few applications are approved. This happened with the old "D" visa system in which overseas Chinese and others with strong family or cultural ties were able to apply for a "D" permanent residence visa. A great number of people applied, very few were approved. The new permanent residence (green card) system is much better and less vaguely written, yet even now the vast majority of applications are rejected. The law also allows one with close family or cultrual ties to China to apply for naturtalization as a citizen. Interestingly enough, in Hong Kong -- with an approval process independant from Beijing -- approval rates are decent. On the Mainland? Yeah, right. The key isn't so much in the law, regulations or even the implementation regulations, but rather in the unpublished internal policies about the approval process and approval criteria.

Recently in the major cities issues relating to visas and working are getting sticky. One used to be able to get long-term F visas as easy as just paying $100, but now even F visas are generally limited to 60-day stays. One also used to be able to enter on an L or F visa and then "upgrade" to a Z visa upon finding employment. Now almost all visa changes from one type to another require the individual to exit China first. In Shanghai and now Beijing, the PSB is conducting quarterly visits to all registered foreigners and conducting surprise inspections where ever foreigners are living and, more commonly these days, working. They claim it is in buildup for the Olympics, but I am not convinced. The only major city where nobody cares what you do or for how long you do it is Guangzhou. Perhaps that will also be changing.

One thing I didn't mention ... Once you arrive in China on whatever visa you have, you need to apply for the special one-year "L" visa in the city where the Chinese spouse / permament resident has their hukou. Any other location will generally refuse your application unless the Chinese spouse is present and working in that city. The only way the PSB will allow you to prove that is if the spouse has both a letter from her employer and a copy of her employment contract with that employer that has been endorsed by the labor bureau in the city where you apply. That is to say, if the spouse holds hukou in, say, Shanghai, you'd need to apply in Shanghai. If the spouse holding hukou in Shanghai resides in, say, Beijing, unless they can present a valid employment contract emdorsed by the Beijing labor bureau & a letter from her employer, Beijing will refuse to issue the visa and tell you to go to Shanghai. Valid employment contracts emdorsed by the labor bureau or generally only obtainable if the person has a permanent or long-term position in a stable company. Working at, say, some small or informal enterprise probably won't cut it. Still, even with some of the obstacles in place, this sytem is far, far better than what there was before: zilch!

Yes, it is multiple entry and you may come and go as you please during that period. Or you can just stay the entire year without leaving.

As long as your spouse is actually a PRC national now and has valid "hukou", you are eligible for the one-year "L" visa. Now, this "L" visa is not granted by the Chinese consulate. The consulate will only give you the normal 30 or 60 day "L" visa. Upon arrival in China, you go to the Public Security Bureau (PSB) and they are the ones who will change your visa into one with one-year validity. Again, this visa can be renewed annually for like periods of time. There are a few things to take notice of. One can not legally work on an "L" visa. The "L" visa must be applied for at the PSB where the Chinese spouse maintains their "hukou" unless the Chinese spouse has a valid temporary living permit in another city through their employer. To apply for the special "L" visa, you need to present, obviously, your passport and your spouse to the PSB. The spouse also needs to have their "hukou" book and ID card in addition to your original marriage certificate. If the marriage took place outside of China, you are often required to have the marriage certificate authenticated by the Chinese consulate serving the location where the marriage certificate was originally issued. Since China does not recognize dual citizenship, if your spouse obtains US citizenship, she will lose their Chinese citizenship.

If you are talking about applying for permanent residency, it is very, very difficult. There are no renewable 4 or 10 year visas based upon being the spouse of a Chinese national or permanent resident. The only thing available is a one-year "L" tourist visa which can be extended continually for equal one-year periods upon expiration. After doing this 5 times, in theory one is qualified to apply for permanent residence. If not qualified, one can continue extending their "L" visa for one-year periods or, by that time, perhaps for longer periods. BILL you seem to be very knowledgeable about the Chinese Visa situation. The following is the actual blurb about the "L" visa from the Chinese Consulate website. I have stayed longer than 30 days in China with no problems but if they choose to enforce this provision it would make living in China very difficult or can you get unlimited extensions easily (100 RMB notes) from said visa officer... Visa Validity and Duration of Stay Usually the validity of a Single Entry or Double Entry "L" visa is 90 days or 180 days from the date of issue. This means the holder of the visa shall enter China no later than 90 days or 180 days from the date of issue, otherwise the visa is expired and is null and void. The duration of stay of a "L" visa is 30 days, which means the holder of the visa may stay in China for up to 30 days from the date of entry.The visa officer may extend the Duration of Stay if the applicant needs and requests a stay in China for more than 30 days. Are you married to a Chinese citizen? If you are married to a Chinese citizen or permanent resident you can get a one-year "L" visa which allows you to stay in-country, if you desire, without leaving for the entire year. This visa can be renewed annually for like periods of time. If you are not married to a qualifying individual, you are basically stuck with what you have quoted above. Lately visa issues have been tightened in China and it is difficult to get longer "L" visas. "L" visas can be extended here in China, but I have never heard of more than 2 extensions. If you are not married to a qualifying indiovidual and need more time than an "L" visa allows, consider an "F" visa. You can usually pick them up in Hong Kong and they often will allow you a one-year period within which you must exit every 6 months. Another option is using a visa agent inside China. There are tons of them and they all seem to be able to get one-year "F" visas and 6-month "L" visas. That said, things are getting stricter now and even visa agents may have problems in the near future.

If you are talking about applying for permanent residency, it is very, very difficult. There are no renewable 4 or 10 year visas based upon being the spouse of a Chinese national or permanent resident. The only thing available is a one-year "L" tourist visa which can be extended continually for equal one-year periods upon expiration. After doing this 5 times, in theory one is qualified to apply for permanent residence. If not qualified, one can continue extending their "L" visa for one-year periods or, by that time, perhaps for longer periods.

Actually, you can apply for permanent residency through the Chinese embassy or consulates in the US. The application is forwarded to China where it goes through the same process as those who have applied in-country. If approved, the Chinese embassy or consulate will issue you a "D" visa which must be converted to an actual green card within 30 days of arrival in China.

Actually, when you apply for permanent residency based on marriage to a Chinese national or permanent resident they will have to see the following: * married at least 5 years; * 5 years (min. 9 mos. / year) living in China subsequent to marriage and immediately prior to the date of application for permanent residency; * stable, long-term legal employment in China; * stable, long-term legal abode in China; * pass medical examination; and * proof of no criminal record in applicant's country of nationality as authenticated by the Chinese embassy in said country. 85% of applications are not approved even though one may appear to meet the above stated requirements. Common reasons include failure of the locally conducted background investigation, the wording of the record of no criminal convictions, one's employment / residence is not "stable," "long-term," and / or "legal."

This link is outdated by way of the Chinese Embassy not updating their information. The old "D" visa system mentioned in this article has been eliminated years ago. The only way to get a "D" visa now is to apply for and be approved permanent residency (the new green card system). Once approved by the Ministry of Public Security approximately 6+ months after applying, the MPS will inform the Chinese embassy to issue a "D" visa which must be converted into a green card once the bearer arrives in China.