NY-Viking

Well, we're at the final step for permanent residency. I-751 application was mailed a little over a week ago to Vermont. We were almost 60 days later than we could have been in mailing, but still well within the period required. Would have mailed it sooner, but (1) we wanted to file our 2007 taxes first so we could include a copy with our application; (2) waiting on friends to get their acts together in letters we requested from them; and (3) well, I tend to move a little slowly - e.g., my wife and I knew each other for 11 years before we finally got married (dated for 6 ... and 1 and 1/2 of that was waiting for the visa paperwork to process ... so it wasn't all me!) Anyway, the check cleared my bank yesterday and my bank lets me see images of cleared checks online, so I printed out a copy. Our address was handwritten below our names by them (we didn't have the bank put it on the checks, because we thought we might have moved ... not yet ... maybe someday ....) and I thought that was interesting. Anyway, the receipt number was written across the top of the check - EACXXXXXXXXXX - but I can't make out all the numbers! Oh well, I suppose the NOA will be in the mail in not too long - just would have been nice to start tracking now ...

I don't have a definite answer, but since I'm considering accepting a job which would have me be in China, we've been looking into this as well. Based on the very limited research I've done, they will look into your "intent" if you are out of the country for extended periods on a greencard and could cancel your greencard if it appears that you have "abandoned" US residency. The bright line is being out of the country for more than 1 year, but you can counter that by applying for a re-entry permit before you leave, OR by applying for a "returning resident" visa from abroad when you return. Also, if it seems you are spending most of your time overseas and just coming to the US for visits, even being out of the country for less than 12 months may cause them to revoke your greencard. For example, say you have a greencard and then go work in China. You work over there, own property there, etc., etc., but maintain some sort of residence in America (say an address at a friend's house so you can get mail or something). You always make sure you come to the US once a year to make an appearance, say visiting friends/family for a week at Christmas. If you continuously do this for several years, they may decide you have abandoned your status as a "permanent resident" and you could lose your green card. The point is, a green card is NOT US citizenship and it is NOT a permanent visitor visa. It's a document that lets you reside, work, etc., etc. in the US permanently, provided you don't abandon your status (or commit a felony, etc.). I should note that while I was working in China, I had some friends who had obtained US green cards, but did just what I described above, basically making sure that once a year they visited the US for at least limited periods. No one questioned their status, but it could have come up. If you do stay out of the US for extended periods, it's a good argument to proceed to naturalization so you don't have to worry about having your intent to remain a permanent resident being questioned. US citizenship can't be revoked, generally, unless you take affirmative action to do so. I should also note this doesn't just apply to Chinese citizens. I have a friend who was born in Canada, and her parents immigrated to the US, but for whatever reason she never got around to doing so, and just stayed a permanent resident. Once when she was going through immigration she was stopped and detained for an hour or so while her intent was questioned. (I've always told her serves her right for being Canadian ). As the article above says, paying US taxes, maintaining bank accounts, property, bills, etc. in the US are all good evidence of your intent, but often it comes down to one person's judgment call. One final thing, there are exceptions for SPOUSES of US CITIZENS in certain situations that would allow them to maintain residency if abroad for longer periods, but as with everything else in this post (and most of my posts) don't consider this a legal opinion - if you have a question, this might be something to see an immigration attorney about.

You don't need a resident permit to marry in China. However, without a resident permit you probably won't be able to file for a greencard for your spouse directly in China (a "DCF") with the US embassy/consulate. You'll have to file through the US instead (I do have a friend who was finally, after several years of attempts in filing for his wife's greencard in China without a resident permit, but that's not the norm.)

Geez .. no replies? I know having in-laws come isn't the most common discussion on this board, but I do know several people have done it, and know I have seen posts about extensions, so if anyone can provide any advice, I'd appreciate it.

My mother-in-law was granted a 1 year multiple entries, and on her last (second and current) entry she was granted a 6 month stay, which ends in April. My wife was hoping she could stay through the spring and then return to China this summer, so we were going to file an I-539, but I just looked at the processing times - about 6 months. So even if we filed now .... we wouldn't get approval by the time she'd be gone. I know some people have filed this before ... any experience with this anyone can share?

David - Great post and very helpful. One question, though, about the letters from friends. I know that all of the "supporting evidence" is all just a suggestion, and has to be tailored to each couple's individual circumstance to show their marriage is legit, but where did you find that the letters "Must include the person's name, date of birth, SSN, address, and phone" ? I don't see the requirement for date of birth or SSN in any USCIS webpages; only that the person may be called on to authenticate it (so an address and phone are required). I intend to submit letters from friends that are notarized; I'd rather not have them list their SSNs, unless it's necessary, and I can't see anywhere that it is.

That is frustrating, but I agree, that it probably just means you can't track it, but it was probably delivered ok. So frustrating though; and I agree with your husband - they shouldn't take money for a service they're not going to perform. Since I'm cheap, I've just used USPS for everything, and been able to track things using our bank (to see when the check gets cashed). Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much, you'll probably get the notice that it was received soon (if not ... then .... well don't worry about that now). Keeping my fingers crossed for you!

That's what I think. Which is why I find it such a waste of time, resources and money. People's fingerprints don't change. If they were taken once, they'll be the same. I *guess* it provides an opportunity every 10 years (or 2 if for removing conditions) to check if the individual has committed some offense, and then give the option of rejecting the issuance of the new green card, but it still seems to me that they can keep a database of fingerprints that they can check against all the time for wrongdoers (they seem to do that all the time on CSI ... ). I renewed my Driver's License recently and was able to do *almost* everything online. I had to see an optometrist (which I had to anyway) to verify my vision, but then just filled out a form online and they sent me my new license with my picture from 10 years ago. If you had to pay for a the eye exam, it would be more expensive, but I was doing it anyway, and I was out of state when my license expired, so it was easier that way. I don't see why green card renewals can't be something similar (but obviously, for a host of reasons, somewhat different since a background check is necessary).

Well, I guess all Chinese girls do look alike But then why make all greencard holders go through the hassle? Seriously, though, I did think of that ... a check every ten years to make sure it's the same person ... checking the pictures and prints against the last set ... but somehow I doubt that happens.

You don't believe in love at first site using bifocals?

I've thought about it, and I'm writing my congressmen and senators about this. It really doesn't make any sense.

Well that does explain it. I just checked the USCIS website and see you also have to do biometrics and pay the fee when you file your I-90 to replace the green card after its 10 year validity (if you don't go the citizenship route, that is). To the powers that be: Charge a higher fee if necessary, but again, since your fingerprints don't change, I just don't get it. This is a waste of time, resources and everyone's money.

I'd like to know why biometrics appointments and fees are required at multiple stages of an application. I can understand wanting an updated photo, but there are other ways to handle that (I need to update my passport every 10 years, and just send in a picture). It seems to me to be an incredible waste of time, resources and money (both ours and the goverments) to require people to do biometrics when applying for the conditional green card, and then again when applying to remove conditions. Fingerprints don't change.

I know there's no point in asking this .. but does anyone understand why there is an additional biometrics appointment to lift conditions? I can see some point in having a biometrics appointment in the US after the fiancee arrives for the conditional greencards (although I can't really see why that can't be done as part of the process overseas either ... but it's different departments, so .. ok ...) But here, my wife's appearance hasn't changed that drastically in the past two years, and her fingerprints certainly haven't changed, so it makes absolutely no sense to me at all why she'd have to go for biometrics again. Why aren't they saved as part of the conditional application, and then reused for the application to remove conditions. It seems like an incredible waste of time and money. I mean, I know this is the gubbamint, but c'mon.

That is pretty cool ... much cooler than the one NY State sent me ... almost wish we decided to have the legal marriage in China now ...

Because we got married within a few days of the 90 day period and I didn't want my wife to be "out of status," we filed a photocopy of the marriage license, which was signed by the presiding minister, my wife, me, our best man and maid of honor. We made a photocopy at the church right after we all signed, and the pastor mailed the original to the relevant New York State department. I mailed the photocopy with our application a couple of weeks later. No RFE was asked, and our biometrics and interview dates eventually were set (see the timeline in my signature). We received the marriage certificate about a month or so later from New York State (we lived in Minnesota at the time because I was in school, but got married in NY). Our AOS interview was about 5 months after we submitted. I brought a certified copy of the marriage certificate with us to the interview. The interviewer said she thought our application already had what was required, but she took the copy of the certificate and put it in our file, just in case. She also took photocopies of pictures from our wedding that we had brought, as well as a copy of the program. So, based on my experience, I think either the license or certificate would have been ok for AOS purposes.

I knew you weren't going to try it and just were asking hypothetically, and I know this is addressed to DavidZ this time, but I'll respond again anyway. I think your hypothesis would work, and would save money, but it will be problematic for the SO during the "waiting period" after marriage, as I discussed above.

Interesting theory, but it's got LOTS of problems. We're an example that you only need to get married within the 90 days, and can file sometime thereafter, but in the time between the 90 day expiration and filing your SO will be out of status. Meaning she's not illegally in the US, but she can't do anything either. She won't be able to apply for a driver's license (and if she has one, the DMV will probably revoke it for residency restrictions). She won't be able to work. She won't be able to leave the US for travel. (The advanced parole and work documents can only be applied for once you file for AOS. Small edit: Since this question is about K1, and getting married within the 90 days, AOS is requried for EAD; if you're coming on a K3, then EAD can be applied for without AOS (I think) as long as the visa is still valid.) So, if your wife (or husband ...) plans to only stay at home, then I guess it's an option, but I wouldn't recommend it. If she ever has any legal difficulty, she'll probably be deported and you'll have problems filing another application. If you want to avoid the 2 year green card, you could always get married in China and apply for a green card there (not K3). By the time they get to your interview, it just might be 2 years and you'd get the full 10 year card. Additional edit: I've had friends that got their AOS interview within a few weeks of their 2 year wedding anniversary, much to their disappointment since they only got a 2 year card. In our case, we had the interview slightly more than 5 months after we applied, so waiting to file definitely would not have been worth our while. With that said, depending on how fast your processing center is, waiting a few months may work out that the interview occurs after the 2 year anniversary, and a few months "out of status" may not be such a big deal (depending on your SO). I just reviewed the other thread about postponing the interview; that may be an option as well, but I'd use some other excuse ... like having to be out of town then rathern than just wanting the 10 year card. As long as it's not put off too far into the future, seems like a good way to avoid the extra fees.

We had a similar issue in MN - I think my wife used her EAD to get her permit, but then after we moved to NY we got a few notices from MN's DMV (well, the equivalent of a DMV) stating that her residency documents were about to expire and we needed to show proof or they would cancel her permit. We didn't care, since we moved out of state, but they finally sent us a letter stating my wife was prohibited from ever driving in MN again unless we showed proof of residency. I called them up and faxed a copy of her greencard and NY permit, and they said everything was ok. So, in short, I agree that it probably has to do with the expiration date.

Before reading my responses to the following, please note that I recommend travelling only on your US passport once you obtain one. This means getting PRC visas and following their restrictions during trips to China. See the section I quoted from the US State Dept's website above. The US requires US passport holders (i.e., citizens) to enter and exit the US on their US passports, even if they claim dual nationality and have another passport. So, yes, you need to exit on your US passport if you have one. Yeah, I think all of us that have frequented China before have encountered that problem and had to show the airline check-in agent where the valid visa was. A couple of times they just laughed and handed me back my passport and asked me to find it because there were too many visas to look through; other times they tried to tell me I didn't have a valid visa before I found it for them. However, the airline only looks for a visa if the country you are travelling to requires one. So, if you are going directly to China, then they'll look. On the other hand if you go to Hong Kong first, you don't need a visa, so they won't give you a problem. Additionally, I'm not sure what the rules are. I think the airline won't give you a boarding pass because they don't want to be held responsible if you are denied entry on arrival in the foreign country. In other words, they don't want to have to put you right back on a plane (that might be booked solid), and they don't want you suing them when you get back to America for not telling you that you needed a visa. But if you made a big stink about it at the airport and said you'd get on the plane and be responsible for not having a visa and not hold them responsible, I'm not sure what they'd do. Even though US airlines collect the I-94 stubs for foreigners that are exiting, the airlines aren't the "visa police". They're private companies providing passage. Chances are they would let you on the plane. I think I remember having to explain to them once that my wife (then girlfriend) didn't need a Chinese visa because she was a Chinese citizen. And as you stated in your post, you have to show them sometimes that you have a valid visa. Seems to follow that you could argue with them that you are entitled to travel to a certain country without having the visa. But this is all conjecture. Of course, one alternative is that you could always obtain a China visa and show it to the airline, but then not use it when you get to China and enter there on your Chinese passport. If you do that, however, the Chinese Consulates may be hesitant to issue you a visa for a later trip. I believe the question involved leaving the US on your US passport, and then entering China on your Chinese passport, in which case you wouldn't be restricted by the Chinese visa while in China. If you did enter China on a US passport with a China visa, however, I'm not sure if when you attempt to exit on your Chinese passport you'd necessarily have a problem, since at that time they'd be looking for your ability to leave (i.e., a visa or permit from another country or region in your Chinese passport - not evidence of when you entered). Nonetheless, you may encounter some problems as they do monitor foreigners stays in China. When you enter you have to indicate where you will be staying and if you do not stay in a hotel, you fill out the infamous yellow slip at the local PSB (and if you do, the hotel fills out a record for you). Given that, if you do choose to use your US passport to enter China, you should follow the visa restrictions and not attempt to later use your PRC passport to exit.

This is the dilemma I discussed above. The way I know people have gotten around this is to leave China on their Chinese passport to Hong Kong, or alternatively to some country that it's easy for PRC citizens to get a visa to (like Thailand), and then continue on to the US. I know a few of years ago I heard a rumor that China was considering allowing "Returnees" into China without a visa (that is, it was considering allowing Chinese that had obtained citizenship in the US or Europe back into China without getting a China visa ... don't know if they meant for them to enter on their foreign of Chinese passport). The idea was to stop the brain drain that was happening as educated Chinese left the country. However, that was a conversation I had at least 4-5 years ago with a headhunter in Shanghai at some AmCham event, and I haven't heard anything more about it since ... either officially from Chinese government announcements or otherwise. So, right now the individual would be stuck in China and need to obtain a visa to exit as far as I know.

This is a bit beyond the run of the mill AOS questions on the Candle. You may want to consult with an immigration attorney. Sorry I can't provide any suggestions.

Not exactly, but it is true that many countries (the US not included) do require you to denounce your previous citizenship if you immigrate and become citizens of them. It seems to me that even if China does not recognize dual citizenship, the US at least implicitly recognizes it with Chinese immigrants, as stated in the State Department web pages I quoted above. Here is what the State Department says about the subject generally: Dual Nationality The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth. A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship. Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance. However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship. Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad. from: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html So for the US, it seems to be about intent. Just for fun, here's what Norway's Directorate of Immigration states: Pursuant to Norwegian law a person cannot in principle be a national of two countries. A Norwegian national who has been granted citizenship in another country after he/she has applied for it, has given notification to be a citizen of another country or has explicitly agreed to be a national of another country automatically forfeits his/her Norwegian citizenship. This also applies in the case where a child becomes a citizen of another country as a result of the parents'/guardians' s application, notification or agreement. If you apply for Norwegian citizenship, you can be required to renounce your previous citizenship if you do not automatically forfeit it. In certain cases, however, the law permits an applicant to be a citizen of more than one country. This applies in the following cases, among others: *If you are born with dual nationality because you have Norwegian and foreign citizenship through your parents (for example a Norwegian mother and a foreign father) *If you are born to Norwegian parents in a country that applies the territorial principle (anyone born in a country becomes a citizen of that country) In that case, you can have both Norwegian citizenship and citizenship of the country of your birth. *If you have applied for Norwegian citizenship and it is not possible for you to renounce your original citizenship *If a child born before 1 Septmeber 2006 becomes Norwegian by notification, see ... from http://www.udi.no/templates/Tema.aspx?id=7397

Here's what the US State Department says specifically about travel to China by people who have US/Chinese dual nationality: Dual Nationality China does not recognize dual nationality. If you are a citizen of both China and the U.S., you may experience difficulty entering and departing China on your U.S. passports. In some cases, U.S. passports have been seized by Chinese authorities. Dual nationals may be subject to Chinese laws which impose special obligations. Such persons are often required to use Chinese documentation to enter China. The United States requires that all U.S. citizens enter and depart the United States on U.S. passports. Dual nationals who enter and depart China using a U.S. passport and a valid PRC visa retain the right of U.S. consular access and protection under the U.S.-PRC Consular Convention. The ability of the U.S. Embassy or consulates general to provide normal consular services would be extremely limited should a dual national enter China on a Chinese or other passport. China does not recognize the U.S. citizenship of children born in China, when one of the parents is a PRC national. Such children are required to depart China on PRC travel documents. Children born in the United States to PRC national parents, who are neither lawful permanent residents nor U.S. citizens, are not recognized as U.S. citizens under Chinese nationality law. Although Chinese consulates have frequently issued visas to such individuals in error, they are treated solely as PRC nationals by Chinese authorities when in China. Before traveling to China, dual nationals should contact the Office of Overseas Citizens Services at (202) 647-6769 or the U.S. Embassy in Beijing (see address at end of this booklet) for additional information. from: http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/region...ional_1173.html

Actually, I don't think this is true. Check out what the State Department says about dual nationality: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html It says: Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship. (emphasis added) This seems to recognize that a dual national can continue to use his or her foreign passport while abroad, but must use the US passport while entering and leaving the US. That webpage, and other State Department webpages, go on to say that while the US recognizes dual citizenship, it doesn't support it for policy reasons (you owe dual allegiances), and the use of a foreign passport may thwart the US government's ability to help you diplomatically while in a foreign country (as indicated by SirLancelot above).