001girls storm Consulate!, (Turned back by police!

[Jeikun]

I just didn't like to hear "those Chinese ... " just as many would take offense to hearing about "those Japanese" or "those Jews".  It immediately makes someone in the "those" group feel like they're part of some undesirable category of sub-human.

That is true. And had that been what was said, I would agree. He didn't say "those Chinese" he said "those Chinese WHO". what is the difference?

 

example:

"Those Virginians stink and never bathe."

"Those Virginians who never bathe stink."

 

One implies all Virginians stink and don't bathe. It lumps Virginians together into a group "those Virginians"

 

The second states that only Virginians who do not bathe stink. It's limping Virginians who don't bathe into a group - seperate from Virginians as a whole.

 

This wasn't a H. Ross Perot's "You people".

 

Granted, if he has said "people" and not "Chinese" there would be less oppertunity for offence - but I would dare say that the non-native speaker in 99.999% of CFL member's lives is in fact, Chinese.

 

I know I'm arguing semantics here, and that's not the point... but I love the little details of language (am a serious geek apparently).

 

As for the language with friends vs language at work... I always thought of this site more as being amoung a group of friends... not as being on the job worried about termination. Was I wrong?

 

I also noticed that many people joined CFL specifically to comment on this OFF TOPIC thread. Also, many guests were viewing it - likely members of 001. Perhaps an off-topic members only forum would... heh.. ok now I'm just being a smart-ass. I apologize.

 

Ok, this isn't my issue anyway and I shouldn't be speaking for Kim. So I'll leave it alone unless adressed directly. I do think the initial post was a tiny thing and not worthy of so much typing though.

[Robert S.]

I suspect that those who did not like the original post would also not be able to enjoy many others if they took the time to read them such as "Your wife might be Chinese if . . ." and the "China - isms" post and others.

 

It took many months for my wife to stop being offended when I laughed at her, yes, laughed AT her, for all the strange things she likes to eat. She would defend herself vigorously at first, then she went through a resentful period, then she turned aggressive toward me when I made these kinds of comments, and now finally it does not bother her at all and in fact she jokes about it herself. The other day she was going to cook a large fish but it would not fit into the pan. She turned around and looked at me with this impish smile as she began to cut off the fish head. For one second I did not understand, then I guessed what it was and I laughed and exclaimed "Oh, you are also making fish head soup!!!"

 

For me Candle is mainly about a way to share enjoyment of why it is so entertaining to be married to someone from another country and learning to understand our cultural differences leads to more and more fun. Those who have never been to America have a great deal to learn about how we think and feel, but first they need to understand they have no basis for interpreting our cultural expressions without having ANY background. We are taking the time and making the effort to understand Chinese people and we have a right to expect the same in return.

[oregonknl]

Well,

 

I'm seeing what I think have been some thoughtful responses here by Candle members --- both in this "Son of storm" and "Storm the Consulate.." Perhaps it is easier to react dispassionately (Candle members) when you don't feel (for whatever reason) under attack (001 members) .....

 

Once again, it NEVER WAS MY INTENTION TO ATTACK, OR MAKE LIGHT OF ANYONE WITH MY ORIGINAL POST ! IT WAS ONLY MEANT TO BE A LIGHT HEARTED, HUMOROUS SPOOF...

 

Some background: The orginal post was written in AP (Associated Press) journalistic style. For those Chinese unfamiliar with this style of writing, it is a terse form of news writing that is supposed to convey facts quickly, and in a dispassionless manner. It evolved just before WW 2 in the US and became a standard for "responsible" journalism, to address the long standing practice of newspapers using "yellow journalistic" techniques. That is: greatly exagerated accounts, taylored to "sell" newspapers by the overly colorful style of the writing, which would largely be an inaccurate account of what actually happened.

 

One of the debates here in the US, that has been raging with the recently completed presidential election, has been if the so called "responsible" press has returned to journalistic exageration --- but within the AP style --- That is, can they write in what appears to be the dispassionate truth, when in fact, it really is the pushing of a specific agenda ("between the lines") The conservatives have for several years now, been accusing major free press sources NY Times, Washington Post, LA Times --- just to name a few of doing that regularly.

 

And there is no doubt that it occurs sometimes. Gene saw it immediately as it related to broadcast news. His comment was about the teaser headline and then: "Film at 11:00!"

 

Part of any good spoof is to pull people in --- to make it somewhat plausable --- so that after a quick read, it seems like legitimate reporting --- and I thought my spoof must have been successful when Syl (American born US Citizen) quickly posted: "Where did you see this!" ---at first she was convinced it was real. But if you read it a second time it begins to break down, you see clues that its not real ... certain words ... "local watering hole" for instance, not part of the AP style of reporting.....

 

Even so, it has always been part of the tradition of Western journalism that the headline is also to serve the purpose of "the hook" ----that is, to get the reader to buy the paper to read the article.

 

So headlines, even today, are often far more dramatic than the content of the article --- everyone raised in the west, I think, intuitively understands this--- and this spoof WAS written in that tradition. The headline stated that the 001 girls "storm" (ed)!! the Consulate ... and were: "Turned back!!!" by police... And then the supporting facts comes out in the article .... they approached the consulate, and yes, they were told to leave by police, after a brief exchange of words ---all true--- which in English, most certainly could be defined as: "turned back" (AP style English) or "turned away" a more common form of English...

 

I'm telling everyone this because it is clear that our cultural differences are quite clear now. Americans who have spent their whole lives here, and have experienced all the aspects, and exagerations of a free press understand this intuitively. It is, however, highly nuanced for people new to our culture and language.. and particularly for those coming from a culture that disseminates information to its citizens in a somewhat different way.

 

I have more thoughts, and do want to address specific comments, but have to go right now, except to say for now:

 

-----I do feel I should have have been more sensitive in the beginning ---- but not as several have suggested, which is towards Cookie's (or the so called, Chinese) point of view. I should have been more sensitive to my Love, and future wife, Fei...

 

Taz immediately was on to Cookie, while I gave Cookie the benefit of the doubt. What I didn't realize at the time was how much Cookie's attacks where hurting Fei, which I now know from our phone conversations and messages over the last several days...

 

.... Fei has some interesting thoughts on this from a different Chinese perspective, but is, at this point is too cowed by Cookie to post it. I set up the thread "Unbelieveable" --- specifically so she could ....

[Guest oregonknlsfei]

From my point, I just forgive cookie cause I still think she makes misunderstanding. Knowing a language doesn¡¯t mean knowing their culture. I heard that Chinese character word is popular in USA. Some young people like to wear the T-shirt with Chinese character on. I saw a picture on internet that a young foreigner girl wear a T-shirt with the Chinese character ¡°chicken¡± on. Maybe she happens to likes that Chinese character word or just because she belong to chicken according our Chinese calendar whatever. But maybe she didn¡¯t know in Chinese culture (maybe in some other countries, I don¡¯t know) chicken has a another deep meaning : prostitute. if you say a girl as a chicken that means maybe you think she is as a prostitute. That is the different culture. Sometimes we know that word , but maybe sometimes we don¡¯t know the real meaning or multivocal meaning. We have to learn or study.

 

From the whole thing, I just don¡¯t understanding one thing. Why cookie chasing my Kim and me for personal attack even if my Kim explained that it just a joke and I said sorry to her. She is really an unbelievable woman!!! Let me remember the 10 years "culture revolution" which the terrible history in China. there were lots ¡°hong wei bing¡± means " red guard " who were enthusiastic admirer of Mao and most of them were the young students who had zealotry to animadvert on & beating up the people whom they thought wrong and incorrect. they just thought they were the 100% correct, objected everything what they though wrong and couldn¡¯t hear anything else.... lost mind! Assume they thought you were bad man, then you must be and they could try them best to find everything to proof you were bad. No excuse, no explanation. At that terrible time, lots people who were persecuted suicided cause they couldn¡¯t bear this injury.

 

I just hope all of us can learn each other and help each other more and more in the future. Not only language but also culture. we are really from two different culture countries. learning more, understanding more and loving more.

[Razbre]

'to be more sensitive' i can understand the statement, but do not understand the reason. To me...CFL should be a place where we as americans with chinese fiancees are able to express and explain the many ways of american culture to our chinese loved ones. To have such a state of affairs where we must watch what we post, even in humor where many of us, both american and chinese would find funny, for fear of offending the few would misconstrue us as an american community, in both good or bad. To me it is here that our finacees would be able to see a wide scope of the american culture. we are not 001 where political correctness may be necessary from offending or losing face. One thing about regular americans is we usually speak our mind, not really worrying about offending, it is not offending we are trying to do when we speak, just trying to either make a point or have our thoughts known as to our own feelings about a given state. There are a lot of times I must explain to Yunling what i mean when i say something, because I am usually blunt and to the point. Maybe cookie did not like 'being made fun of' for being one of the 'girls who stormed the consulate' and being referenced as a rowdy and unrefined lady. But I can not imagine having to worry about what I might be saying that may be taken out of context....when humor was clearly being said and others were able to see it.

[corvette]

I am so amazed that this topic is still under "debating" after all these days (I was away for work for a few days).

 

It's really thrilling that such a "story" stormed the CFL. I don't think that Kim and his fiancee were trying to show off or act against Chinese culture, or whatever you name it. I read Kim's original narration and found it a nice piece of writing that was exagerated in order to reach impact and catch attention as lots of journalists do in their columns.

 

True, we all have culture shocks, but I consider this more as a personality issue. Not all ppl can take jokes, and not all ppl consider a certain kind of jokes to be jokes. So here comes the problem.

 

From my stand point, we should tolerate different ideas, and encourage different voices. there's no right or wrong in this debate. It's only a matter that you agree or disagree.

 

I'm glad that I understand Cory's humor and he always Laughs his pants off with my jokes.

[cosmiclobster]

Do any of you guys remember a skit that Johnny Carson would do - He would get 4 guys on stage. Johnny would tell the first guy a simple joke in English. The first guy translated the joke into Spanish and told the second guy. The second guy tranlated it from Spanish to French and told it to the third guy. The third guy translated it from French into German and told the next guy. He translated it from German into Italian and told the last guy. The last guy translated it back to English and told it to the audience. After 5 translations, the joke would make absolutely no sense at all and would not even be similar to the original. The audience would always laugh at how totally convoluted it became. It was funny to hear the "new" joke while you wondered how it got so totally changed!!!

 

My point is that most jokes get lost when crossing a language barrier and especially lost when crossing a culture barrier.

 

In Kims original story, no offence was intended and none should of been taken.

[lele]

Hello Everyone.

 

I best tread carefully, lest I step on toes. So please, do not take offense to my remarks. Thank you!

 

I am not directly involved, nor do I know the people directly involved. All I know is what has been written and my own personal take on it.

 

However, when I read through the comments, it seems to me that this was never meant to be a joke, nor was it meant to be insensitive. I instead see it as an act of frustration on the part of the people involved. And if it is this reason, then the comments make sense from all sides.

 

Given that the various different political perspectives can see this from a different perspective, some taking offense, and others looking on it as a right or as humor. However, I do not believe that it is necessarily cultural. Why do I say this? Since my own darling who has been Chinese her whole life and many of her friends do not mis-understand the cultural context here. It may be that since they are from parts of China where people speak Putonghua as compared to Guangdonghua that there are some differences. It may also be that they are ethnically hanzhu and have been for centuries. It may be that politically, they grew up (my darling and many of her friends) as children of people who were in families which were broken apart by mao's purge, and that these students have been trying to piece together how to live their new lives in the shadows of ideas from the ming, the song, and deng xiaoping. People from this part of the country, although entering into the middle class in the cities (such as for my darling) only over the lat 3-4 years, many of whom have not had the financial support, relatively, that people from Guangdong have had. Maybe it is also that in this region, there has been a legacy left over of foreign concessions and japanese aggression, which causes people to realize when a situation is not fair and right.

 

My darling took it the same way that I did when I read this post. Out of frustration.

 

Out of frustration that our system is not treating us fairly. Just because of our darlings being from China, we are forced to endure wait times which are MUCH LONGER and MUCH MORE INTRUSIVE than people applying from other countries. Just because our darlings are Chinese, the consulate proudly displays that all cases will be completed in 3-5 months after they receive your application in GZ, and yet already I am at that point, without an interview date assigned yet, and it seems that many people are far past that point.

 

I certainly am frustrated.

 

However, I must be like water, and to acknowledge that often times tough situations help us to grow as individuals. She reminds me of this as I remind her of it at the same time.

 

Then, she quoted me to something I have not heard from a long time, and I have not heard applied to this type of situation in years: "survival of the fittest" -- Darwin

 

This is supposed to apply to evolution, and in a way, we are all evolving in our lives. Is this really what we want our darlings to see of America? When I talked with her more about this, and about our wanting to build a life where we can do more than just survive, but where we can grow as individuals and we can help our community, our world, our families, and others to better enrich their lives, she completely agreed. She then realized the frustration which we are all facing, and that was how it was summed up. This explanation makes great sense to me and allows me to think back at the lessons learned.

 

The Chinese people have learned that violence and aggression get them nowhere. This is why the whole concept of storming seems to make such little sense! However, the general frustration is still in our environment, and we must use our wonderful experiences and our passion and our love to help to channel these experiences into wonderful actions.

 

So, rather than trying to talk about this being a joke, even if some may find it funny, I would prefer that we work to do the best that we can every day. To acknowledge that at times this process will really get us down, and yet at other times that at least we are so fortunate to have met such wonderful people!

 

And that finally, we should all remember the actions behind the words. I will never again politically vote for or support a candidate who do not intend to reform this system, so as to make it fair. Additionally, I will not stop talking with people to raise awareness on this side, so that hopefully, everyone can better understand our frustration and pain and to help us to realize that there are many wonderful vistas ahead.

[Jim - Portland, USA]

Do any of you guys remember a skit that Johnny Carson would do -  He would get 4 guys on stage. Johnny would tell the first guy a simple joke in English. The first guy translated the joke into Spanish and told the second guy. The second guy tranlated it from Spanish to French and told it to the third guy. The third guy translated it from French into German and told the next guy. He translated it from German into Italian and told the last guy. The last guy translated it back to English and told it to the audience. After 5 translations, the joke would make absolutely no sense at all and would not even be similar to the original. The audience would always laugh at how totally convoluted it became. It was funny to hear the "new" joke while you wondered how it got so totally changed!!!

 

My point is that most jokes get lost when crossing a language barrier and especially lost when crossing a culture barrier.

 

In Kims original story, no offence was intended and none should of been taken.

LOST IN TRANSLATION

 

Well said Steve. And for anyone who doesn't know Kim (oregonknl), I've met him in person and I can say that he is a kind man and a great guy with large amounts of respect and admiration for Chinese people and Chinese culture (he is the father of two beautiful Chinese girls) and he could not intentially offend anyone even if he wanted to. His post was GREATLY misinterpreted.

 

It was posted that "mob" in english has a negative meaning. Not true! Because english is such a versatile language, the word "mob" can have several meanings and connotations. It can be used (humorously) to describe any large group of people with a plan to do something. That's all.

 

For example, has anyone heard of flash mobs, also known (in England) as smart mobs? It is an interesting cultural phenomenon born from modern technology. Let me explain ...

 

One person gets an idea to do something silly and wacky, communicates that idea to others, then quickly and suddenly, they meet at one place with the intent to do something silly and wacky. Here's a BBC News site that has one story about such an event:

 

BBC News - Smart mob storms London sofa store

 

It's a story about a real-life event where a "smart mob" storms a sofa store and sit on the sofas for 10 minutes, just for fun. Then suddenly they all get up and leave.

 

Here's another story about a global flash mob:

 

Wired News - Global Chaos, Just For Fun

 

There was a "global flash mob" among people from 32 countries who united together at the same time to celebrate the first anniversary of "flash mobbing".

 

Other things flash/smart mobs do (for fun) across America and Europe:

 

CNN News - New York mob storms stone ledge and makes bird noises

 

CNN News - Brazil flash mob slap one shoe on street corner

 

Cheese Bikini - Mob storms Hyatt Hotel and clap for 10 minutes

 

USA TODAY - Mob storms shopping mall to play imaginary ping pong

 

Toy Town Munich - German flash mob marvels at golden statue

 

The point is ... we in "western" culture use the words 'mob' and 'storm' to also describe funny events also. When mobs storm department stores with 50% off sales, when hungry mobs storm doughnut shops for fresh hot doughnuts, etc. So for any non-native english speaker(s) who made a mistake when translating Kim's words when he talked about a mob storming the consulate, perhaps you should calm down and think about a possibility ... maybe you made a mistake when translating Kim's words??

 

Of course some of this has to do with differences in cultural norms. Some things that people in western cultural may think is humurous, some in Asian culture may think is bizzare. Conversely, things that Asian people may find to be funny, western people may find to be bizzare.

 

Ahhh, the joys of intercultural communication

[Guest jimb]

I am so amazed that this topic is still under "debating" after all these days (I was away for work for a few days).

 

It's really thrilling that such a "story" stormed the CFL. I don't think that Kim and his fiancee were trying to show off or act against Chinese culture, or whatever you name it. I read Kim's original narration and found it a nice piece of writing that was exagerated in order to reach impact and catch attention as lots of journalists do in their columns.

 

True, we all have culture shocks, but I consider this more as a personality issue. Not all ppl can take jokes, and not all ppl consider a certain kind of jokes to be jokes. So here comes the problem.

 

From my stand point, we should tolerate different ideas, and encourage different voices. there's no right or wrong in this debate. It's only a matter that you agree or disagree.

 

I'm glad that I understand Cory's humor and he always Laughs his pants off with my jokes. 

I'm glad that I understand Cory's humor and he always Laughs his pants off with my jokes.

[/color=blue]

 

I think that all the different responses to this post are interesting and most are funny.

 

After my wife read the post a second time, she had a totally different response. First time she thought is was terrible that those women would jepordise their visas by storming the embassy. Second time through she realized that it was just a spoof, and American humor.

 

I will now try to explain "laugh his pants off" to her.

 

jimb

[Cookie]

To oregonknl and oregonknlsfei(bbcute on 001):

I hope you both can give some ideas about your big ¡°American humor¡±. why were you both afraid to answer my questions?because you could never be albe to answer them with the truth?how come oregonknlsfei try hard to bring more excuses for her lies?please be brave to talk something on 001 if you didn't lie about the policeman has never told us leaving consulate(we have never turned back by police).you both posts ever caused argument of 001 girls,are you both happy to do that?

 

1)10 women all members of the same organization called 001.

Q:please make sure how many girls joined this gathering first,the answer is 12.

 

2)Fei (my fiancee was there too, and told me all about it!)

Q:did your finacee really tell you all about it or did you just guess?

 

3)I don't know the whole story ~!

Q:why did you say that your fiancee told you all about it if you didn't really know the whole story?

 

4)about 6 pm. they ALL decided to take a stroll over to the Consulate to see if they could "expedite" things..... Naturally, the guards saw em' coming (and know "trouble" when they see it!)

Q:actually 1 girl left about 6pm,then other 11 girls left lucy's bar at 7pm,they all decided to see where consulate is and how does consulate looks like before they left lucy's bar.all of 10 girls knew that,except your fiancee?we all didn't know there was any trouble to stand outside of consulate since we all could stand there.

 

5)--- so before they could get very close, confront them and tell em' they can't get any closer ---- at that point, they know they're whipped, and tell the guards some BS like: "Oh we just wanted to SEE what the Consulate looks like!" (Yeah sure, whatever!)

Q:we all have never talked to policemen there,and the policeman didn't ask us don't get any closer,he just told us don't take pictures there.but so sorry that a girl already shot a picture before he said that.

 

6)My fiancee Fei, actually took pictures ~!!

Q:did she take pictures by herself with her camera?what did you mean of this?

 

7)not only of the: "GANG OF TEN" at Lucy's bar, but also a picture of the POLICE at the Consulate ~!!! (turning back the storming mob ~!!!) --

Q:again,not10, there were 12 at Lucy's bar,there were 11 to look around consulate.yes,a girl took a picture of consulate look.but the policeman has never yelled at us that he let all leaving there.how come you could write (turning back the storming mob ~!!!) ,what's this mean word"mob" meaning?

 

8)If you want the photographic PROOF --- contact her at banjemins@yahoo.com

Q:why did you post your fiancee's E-mail address to get other's attention?why did you wanna to show the photographic PROOF ?no purposes?who believe?

 

9)--- you are talking about THE WRONG PERSON --- Fei is NOT the peson you refer to.

Q:I think my English isn't poor as yours,did you wanna type"Fei is NOT the type person you refer to"?how come an educated American didn't know what's different between the person and the type person?

 

10)Hummmm..... Fei is very generous, and doesn't speak badly about other people without good cause, and to me, she only spoke well of everyone at that meeting --- just had a good time....

Q:huh,if she is that great like you said,why didn't she tell the whole story and the truth first?

 

11)When I said you had the wrong person ---- what I meant is that the person you described is not Fei --- she is not jealous, she is not materialistic, and she does not show off... In fact, she avoids specifics when women waiting for the K visas start comparing notes about the wealth of their husbands or future husbands in the states -

Q:we all girls didn't really know what type person your fiancee is,and we didn't start comparing notes about the wealth of their husbands or future husbands as your fiancee told you or you guessed,please tell us who even told others how much their husbands or fiances have?who wanted to know others wealth?only your fiancee wanted to know or did she wanted to lie about that?why could you bring this BS up?did you wanna mess up more in this wonderful gathering?your fiancee and all of us really know no one has ever talked about wealth in the gathering.

 

To oregonknlsfei(bbcute on 001):

1)I also rev'd an email from a 001girl today about the big controversy on 001 and CFL. I didnt know what happened so I just check it out. hahaha... funny.

Q:the big controversy,how big was this controversy in both websites?there were just few people to talk about this,is it big?please don't think you can make anything big.huh,do you really feel funny to mess up others by all lies?

 

2)obviously cookie misunderstanding my Kim. well Cookie,yes I am the girl who show everyone my new clothes that day. but not like what you said " show off ". you know when women have new clothes, usually like to show to her friends. I treat all of 001 girls as my friends.and I treat you as my friend as well, though so far I dont know who you are. tell me where you stand in the picture. anyway. glad to know you.

Q:I hope I really misunderstood you both in your big "American humor",even if you tried to show us clothes,please tell us who ever cared about your clothes showing?you would never make this big"humor" if you really treated all of 001 girls as your friends.it isn't matter who I am in the standing picture,it's enough to know I am one of them.

 

3)I didnt lie. I just told my Kim how happy we were together that day and told him after luck'bar,we walked down to the consulate and just wanted to "check it out". the police man came up to us and asked : "what were you doing. dont close here... etc "and we said nothing, then left.

Q:if you really knew we all just wanted to check where consulate is,and you really were honest to tell your fiance,why wouldn't you tell him the truth?

yes,of course we said nothing to policeman,because of the policeman didn't ask us anything or he tried to force us leaving there.how come your fiance posted"at that point, they know they're whipped, and tell the guards some BS like: "Oh we just wanted to SEE what the Consulate looks like!" (Yeah sure, whatever!)" did we really say that to policeman?or you lied?

 

4)different language and different culture.it's not big deal.

Q:of course there are different language and different culture in different counties.do you both think to make this big "American humor" is funny or playful?in fact,lotsa lies in your big American humor,how come you both wanna make lotsa excuses after you both lied to others?

 

5)I wanted to explain this on 001, but I forget my passwords. so I could not sign in. and only post it on CFL.

Q:if you really forgot your password,you could get ID back with your applicating information on 001,didn't you know that?or you could make a new 001 ID to tell others that is you,then you can post what you want to talk about the gathering,right?how come you didn't explain in Chinese to 001 JMS,because you know some 001 girls don't know English very well?or you wanted to hide the truth?or you have no face to type Chinese on 001?

 

Please read what 001 girls talked:they all could prove you both lied to others in CFL.

 

I said you both are trouble makers,so what?sue me?sue me if you can.

[Cookie]

in my and some girls(who joined the gathering)'s point, oregonknl and oregonknlsfei(bbcute on 001) should say sorry to all for their lies as oregonknlsfei thought by herself making mistakes of the gathering with none truth in her original post.

[frank1538]

I missed the original posts, but it seems to me that, in reading the "Son of Storm", someone still doesn't get it.

[maiyademama]

I missed the original posts, but it seems to me that, in reading the "Son of Storm", someone still doesn't get it.

Gee, I wonder who that *someone* could be? She's Baaaaccckk! PLease give it up, Cookie. It is over! It was a humorous and HARMLESS post that we all understood and was taken at face value. No need for endless commentary on whether Kim and Fei got each and every fact correct. It is an EXAGERATED story, therefore, not every detail and account is going to match with the TRUE (ie FACTUAL) event. You need to apologize to Kim and Fei for all the personal attacks, which are simply inexcusable and unjustifiable. Saying that someone should physically harm Fei is a threat and is illegal!

[Jeikun]

Cookie... you are just making a bigger fool out of yourself the more you babble about this. Give it up and chill out. You are only showcasing yourself as being stubborn, unreasonable, stupid, and small minded.

 

I'm sorry all, I realize this falls squarely into the realm of "personal attack" and I'm sure it bothers some of you. But sometimes some people just need to be told when to shut up. Maybe it's not my place, but I don't particularly care right now. It sickens me how some people are allowed to continue posting this kind of slanderous bile here.

 

Cookie... please shut up and go away. Nobody likes you.