denied - help with next steps?

[shine]

Friends,

 

My spouse was denied based on 2 months CCP membership before graduating college 9 years ago. Her statement conveyed this was not voluntary because the teacher pressured her (spouse had said she didn't want to do it but the teacher came back and insisted and she felt threatened). No dues, meetings, participation, etc. in 9+ years. On top of that, no leadership roles and never understood or accepted the ideology; rather, the spouse actually later worked as a journalist, promoted U.S. education, got baptized and has been a practicing Christian for years, including at underground churches. We haven't received the letter so I don't know what alternate facts they believed.

 

I'm very deflated and confused and have a few questions:

 

1. Is there any value to filing for a hearing (N-336)? If we do not file for one, does it prejudice a future application (is it seen as accepting as fact what the officer determined)? I think it must be that key points did not come across in the interview and I am kicking myself we spent so much time preparing for the civics test and not enough time rehearsing this.

 

2. If the denial stands, how soon can she reapply?

 

3. Once she hits ten years ago, does this issue go away, or could they then bring up new issues like requiring proof that membership ended/activities ceased?

 

4. Are there specific lawyers recommended here to discuss next steps?

 

Thank you

[Randy W]

I don't know that this isn't just a gleam in Trump's eye at this point, or if it possibly had an effect on your case, but he is considering a ban on issuing visas to CCP members

 

Chinese Communist Party Members Targeted by Draft Trump Visa Ban | Chodorow Law Offices

 

Quote

Despite broad powers, in fiscal year 2017, only 15 applicants for immigrant visas worldwide were found ineligible on this basis, according to State Department statistics. That year, 35,350 persons born in Mainland China were issued immigrant visas. In 2018 and 2019, the number of persons found ineligible actually dropped.

 

 

The Gary Chodorow Law and Border folks have offices in China, but also one in Los Angeles. If I'm understanding you correctly, your wife is in the US, applying for citizenship.

 

See his contact information at the bottom of that page.

 

We used to recommend Marc Ellis at http://www.marcellislaw.com/, a lawyer in Vietnam who has since retired. His law firm serves "five continents" is still active and may be able to help.

 

Those are the two China-specific law firms I can recommend, although you might prefer a local lawyer.

 

Some information on this site that may prove helpful, although it's primarily geared to visa applicants.

CCP Membership Issues

 

It's probably best to NOT contact the CCP, even to verify that her membership is not active, since ANY contact can be interpreted as activity.

 

edit 4/7/2022 - changed "inactivity" to "activity"

Edited April 7, 2022 by Randy W (see edit history)

[Martin B]

Before doing anything, wait for the official letter.

[shine]

Before doing anything, wait for the official letter.

Got the letter - which seems confusing. It basically says --

 

you feared negative consequences... you were pressured... you did not know the negative consequences... therefore, it was voluntary. And nothing in there about it being non-substantive, or any of the things that show lack of agreement with its goals, etc., which are very well documented.

 

Thank you for your suggestions earlier.

[Randy W]

 

Before doing anything, wait for the official letter.

Got the letter - which seems confusing. It basically says --

 

you feared negative consequences... you were pressured... you did not know the negative consequences... therefore, it was voluntary. And nothing in there about it being non-substantive, or any of the things that show lack of agreement with its goals, etc., which are very well documented.

 

Thank you for your suggestions earlier.

 

 

 

You got an unusually hard headed Immigrations Officer. For the most part, the Visa Officers in Guangzhou understand the pressure to join. But at least he told you what he felt was lacking.

 

It's VERY unfortunate that he didn't give her a chance to elaborate. What you stated in your original post here should be good enough, but check the CCP Membership Issues link I gave you earlier.

 

Be mindful of Trump's possible new ban - a consultation with a lawyer may be in order before trying again.

[Martin B]

 

 

Before doing anything, wait for the official letter.

Got the letter - which seems confusing. It basically says --

 

you feared negative consequences... you were pressured... you did not know the negative consequences... therefore, it was voluntary. And nothing in there about it being non-substantive, or any of the things that show lack of agreement with its goals, etc., which are very well documented.

 

Thank you for your suggestions earlier.

 

 

 

You got an unusually hard headed Immigrations Officer. For the most part, the Visa Officers in Guangzhou understand the pressure to join. But at least he told you what he felt was lacking.

 

It's VERY unfortunate that he didn't give her a chance to elaborate. What you stated in your original post here should be good enough, but check the CCP Membership Issues link I gave you earlier.

 

Be mindful of Trump's possible new ban - a consultation with a lawyer may be in order before trying again.

 

 

This was presumably at a USCIS field office as it was an N400 interview, not Guangzhou. I agree that while Guangzhou officers are usually understanding and forgiving of CPC issues, USCIS officers can be incredibly hit or miss on any country-specific issues - the process can be very arbitrary.

 

There are numerous stories of spotless K1's getting grilled at their AOS interview while super shady F1/B2 adjustments get a 5-minute interview with an immediate approval. Same with the communist party issue - some officers will make a huge deal out of it, other will move on after a brief question or two.

 

I'm almost 100% sure that denials need to be signed off by a supervisor or second officer so that's also working against you.

 

I don't think there's any harm to consulting with a good attorney, one who is experienced with CPC issues. Consider bringing them along to the N-336 interview. Those are usually done by supervisory or very senior officers and if the decision isn't reversed, you're basically looking at either suing USCIS ($$$$ and not guaranteed) or re-applying down the road.

Edited August 15, 2020 by CreamyCheesyBARF (see edit history)

[Randy W]

 

 

 

 

 

You got an unusually hard headed Immigrations Officer. For the most part, the Visa Officers in Guangzhou understand the pressure to join. But at least he told you what he felt was lacking.

 

It's VERY unfortunate that he didn't give her a chance to elaborate. What you stated in your original post here should be good enough, but check the CCP Membership Issues link I gave you earlier.

 

Be mindful of Trump's possible new ban - a consultation with a lawyer may be in order before trying again.

 

 

This was presumably at a USCIS field office as it was an N400 interview, not Guangzhou. I agree that while Guangzhou officers are usually understanding and forgiving of CPC issues, USCIS officers can be incredibly hit or miss on any country-specific issues - the process can be very arbitrary.

 

 

 

 

Yes - that was my point. She has already passed that issue once.

[newacct]

Communist party membership within the last 10 years causes denial of naturalization. (See USCIS Policy Manual, Volume 12, Part D, Chapter 7, section D-1.) Given that her membership was 9+ years ago, it might be easier to just wait until 10 years and reapply.

[Randy W]

Communist party membership within the last 10 years causes denial of naturalization. (See USCIS Policy Manual, Volume 12, Part D, Chapter 7, section D-1.) Given that her membership was 9+ years ago, it might be easier to just wait until 10 years and reapply.

 

 

This section is also applicable and is almost always applied, except by an occasional hard headed Immigrations Officer

2. Exemptions to Communist Party Affiliation

 

Waiting for the 10 year expiration may be prudent, but you don't know how Trump's visa ban will play out - in particular, whether it will affect naturalization.

[lhp]

Sorry to hear this happened to @shine. Have you tried again after the 10 years passed?

We are about to start citizenship paperwork - we've been waiting for ten years of dues paying to pass and that's now behind us. Going to have to read up on the old threads to see how to handle this in the N-400 application (which now can be done all online! Wow!).

 

Edit: tagged the wrong user.

Edited April 6, 2022 by lhp (see edit history)

[Randy W]

On 4/7/2022 at 1:44 AM, lhp said:

Sorry to hear this happened to @shine. Have you tried again after the 10 years passed?

We are about to start citizenship paperwork - we've been waiting for ten years of dues paying to pass and that's now behind us. Going to have to read up on the old threads to see how to handle this in the N-400 application (which now can be done all online! Wow!).

 

Edit: tagged the wrong user.

He hasn't been back on since this post, but I'm pretty sure he was just victimized by a over-zealous (fairly uniquely so) Immigrations Officer.

I'm sure it worked out for them, but it's always sad to have to deal with those things.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Randy W (see edit history)

[Martin B]

When we went in for our AOS interview in 2018, our attorney prepared a stack of 4-5 recent court case decisions which supported our case. Our attorney said CPC membership is generally not an issue, but she did see an uptick in questioning regarding the matter around 2016/2017. My wife was asked about it at the interview but after she says she did it for school/work, the officer moved on. I understand the it's probably a more serious issue for citizenship.

My wife is probably going to hold off on citizenship until the 10-year mark passes, to avoid the CPC issues and and to keep options open if we want to semi-retire to China (although that's looking less and less and less and less likely these days...)

[shine2]

On 4/7/2022 at 2:03 PM, Randy W said:

He hasn't been back on since this post, but I'm pretty sure he was just victimized by a over-zealous (fairly uniquely so) Immigrations Officer.

I'm sure it worked out for them, but it's always sad to have to deal with those things.

Hi, I'm the original poster.  I have a new username because I don't have access to the old email account I had used to sign up.

The denial was based on the fact that at the time of the first N-400 application, it had only been 9 years and 10 months since the membership end date.  So she didn't meet the length of time exception.  And they construed her few months of attending meetings as "meaningful."

Our update is that after our denial in 2020, we got consumed with starting our new family.  Now, two kids later, we re-applied in 2023 and the interview is next week.

We did work with a lawyer on our second N-400 who is familiar with CCP issues and overall, I recommend this. 

Because of the difficulty of traveling to the PRC with young kids during the pandemic -- and all the downsides of trying to request certificates of termination -- we did not try to get any documentary evidence of the end date.  Our lawyer thinks the oral evidence -- that for more than 10 years she's been telling the U.S. Government that she stopped being a member in 2011 -- is strong. 

I'm still curious if others are bringing documents proving termination or these approvals are happening just based on statements.

[Randy W]

2 hours ago, shine2 said:

Hi, I'm the original poster.  I have a new username because I don't have access to the old email account I had used to sign up.

The denial was based on the fact that at the time of the first N-400 application, it had only been 9 years and 10 months since the membership end date.  So she didn't meet the length of time exception.  And they construed her few months of attending meetings as "meaningful."

Our update is that after our denial in 2020, we got consumed with starting our new family.  Now, two kids later, we re-applied in 2023 and the interview is next week.

We did work with a lawyer on our second N-400 who is familiar with CCP issues and overall, I recommend this. 

Because of the difficulty of traveling to the PRC with young kids during the pandemic -- and all the downsides of trying to request certificates of termination -- we did not try to get any documentary evidence of the end date.  Our lawyer thinks the oral evidence -- that for more than 10 years she's been telling the U.S. Government that she stopped being a member in 2011 -- is strong. 

I'm still curious if others are bringing documents proving termination or these approvals are happening just based on statements.

yes, it's less of an issue nowadays. I think it's just better understood now. In particular, that "termination papers" involves an interaction wth the CCP in itself.

Welcme back. It"s good to hear from the old members.

[Martin B]

5 hours ago, shine2 said:

Hi, I'm the original poster.  I have a new username because I don't have access to the old email account I had used to sign up.

The denial was based on the fact that at the time of the first N-400 application, it had only been 9 years and 10 months since the membership end date.  So she didn't meet the length of time exception.  And they construed her few months of attending meetings as "meaningful."

Our update is that after our denial in 2020, we got consumed with starting our new family.  Now, two kids later, we re-applied in 2023 and the interview is next week.

We did work with a lawyer on our second N-400 who is familiar with CCP issues and overall, I recommend this. 

Because of the difficulty of traveling to the PRC with young kids during the pandemic -- and all the downsides of trying to request certificates of termination -- we did not try to get any documentary evidence of the end date.  Our lawyer thinks the oral evidence -- that for more than 10 years she's been telling the U.S. Government that she stopped being a member in 2011 -- is strong. 

I'm still curious if others are bringing documents proving termination or these approvals are happening just based on statements.

You should be 100% fine. In fact, you should have been fine during your first interview since her case clearly meets one of the exemptions. This is the big reason why we always took an attorney with us to any USCIS interview - not because we weren't sure, but to make sure the USCIS interviewer was fully aware. Wasn't an issue at all in either her I485 or N400 interview.