Travel Document

[Bert]

My suggestion stands - go to the mother's PSB in China and renounce the child's citizenship (I'm assuming they'll let you do that, of course).

 

Come to think of it, though - Baby Milk (Olivia) was left in New York when they traveled to Taiwan and Hong Kong recently. So she MAY not have applied for a Chinese visa in her American passport yet.

 

The video I posted earlier, though, is where he talks about renouncing her citizenship.

 

He seemed to say--and maybe I misunderstood--that the Exit and Entry Permit effectively renounced citizenship. I'm told it takes four months to a year. Of course, that might be from outside of China. Or, maybe, it still may take that long but they gave them the Exit and Entry Permit. They have to issue a certificate renouncing citizenship. He didn't show that. We didn't have any trouble getting the permit other than having to go to my wife's hometown and asking a relative at the PSB or police station to provide the fake documents stating he had lived there for two years.

 

Going to the PSB in my wife's hometown isn't an option at the moment. My son can't travel to China. I suppose my wife could go by herself as long as it didn't require my son's presence. The whole point was to go to China during the Christmas vacation. Looks like we missed that opportunity.

 

In any case, my wife made some progress this morning. The website is https://ppt.mfa.gov.cn/appo/. She started by applying for an appointment. It's an 11-step process, and in the end, you don't get an appointment. It collected the information to fill out the information for the travel document. It's confusing because you start out following the application for a Chinese passport. My wife's error was in choosing his current ID. She selected passport and entered his US passport information, which it rejected. This time around, she selected no document. She got to step 6 and it requested a picture. She uploaded and sized the picture, then it promptly rejected the information. She had to go back a step or two and say that he was applying for a Chinese passport. Somewhere along the way, she did have to enter his US passport information. She had to say that he was from the Han group and supply her father's Hukou information, although my son is not on a Hukou. Somewhere before the end, we received an email from the embassy with the credentials for checking the status. In the end, it is not unlike the application for a US visa for a Chinese passport. You print out the application with a cover sheet showing a 2-d barcode with all the information and a regular barcode identifier. You must take that to the appointment.

 

After all that, still no appointment or any information on how to establish an appointment. When my wife was able to talk to them, they told her nothing was available until January. I assume that means we can't just show up. When we try to check the status with the credentials emailed to us, it doesn't work. That is the next huddle. Maybe it just takes time.

[Randy W]

I am reading this under

Visa for Chinese-born children of Chinese origin in China

2015/02/04

According to the Nationality Law of the People's Republic of China , both parents or one of the parents are Chinese citizens and settle in a foreign country. If they are born with foreign nationality, they do not have Chinese nationality. When they go to China, they should apply for a Chinese visa.

　　　 Materials required for applying for a visa:

 

 

at http://www.china-embassy.org/chn/lszj/qz/t1234521.htm

 

It seems to me that you need to IGNORE the travel agencies and what you're hearing on the phone. DON'T try to interpret the Nationality Law.

 

GO to the embassy to apply for a VISA for your child. Let them tell you TO YOUR FACE while looking at your documentation if you need to apply for a travel document AND how to do so.

 

The online procedure for a travel document is apparently not the right one for your situation. As far as I'm aware, no one else has done this - they have gone to their consulate or the embassy.

 

Others have done this - it's simply a matter of finding the right hoops to jump through.

 

Of course, they don't HAVE to issue either, but it SHOULD be possible, YOU need to do the legwork

[Bert]

I am reading this under

Visa for Chinese-born children of Chinese origin in China

2015/02/04

 

 

According to the Nationality Law of the People's Republic of China , both parents or one of the parents are Chinese citizens and settle in a foreign country. If they are born with foreign nationality, they do not have Chinese nationality. When they go to China, they should apply for a Chinese visa.

　　　 Materials required for applying for a visa:

 

 

at http://www.china-embassy.org/chn/lszj/qz/t1234521.htm

 

It seems to me that you need to IGNORE the travel agencies and what you're hearing on the phone. DON'T try to interpret the Nationality Law.

 

GO to the embassy to apply for a VISA for your child. Let them tell you TO YOUR FACE while looking at your documentation if you need to apply for a travel document AND how to do so.

 

The online procedure for a travel document is apparently not the right one for your situation. As far as I'm aware, no one else has done this - they have gone to their consulate or the embassy.

 

Others have done this - it's simply a matter of finding the right hoops to jump through.

 

Of course, they don't HAVE to issue either, but it SHOULD be possible, YOU need to do the legwork

 

I'm not trying to interpret the National Law, but what I have learned of the National Law, it is consistent with what I have been told to do. The key word above is "settled". Settled can be interpreted as having a green card. At the time of birth, my wife did not have a green card; therefore, she was not settled. According to the Visa Center of the Chinese Embassy, if both parents aren't "settled" at the time of birth, the nationality is Chinese, even if the child is born in the US.

 

I hear what you are saying. The law and how it is applied is not always consistent. It's an expensive proposition to fly a family of three to Washington, DC and stay in a hotel and hope that they will issue a visa or travel document. It flies in the face of the law and what the embassy has told us through its Visa Center in Washington, DC. The guy appeared to be a native English speaker. He was emphatic and apologetic. When I say Visa Center, I mean the official Chinese Embassy place that issues the visas and other official documents. I have contacted a second visa service company, the first being Oasis, without giving too many details other than he was born in China to a Chinese woman. No response yet. I did not believe Oasis. That is when I contacted the Embassy Visa Center that confirmed what I was told.

 

Here is a link to the visa applications: http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/visas/hrsq/

 

One can choose any visa. It's all the same. If I choose an "L" visa and go to the requirements, Step 5 reads:

 

5. If the applicant is a child born in the U. S. to a Chinese parent, the visa requirements are different. Please click to see detailed info.

 

I realize that my child wasn't born in the US; nevertheless, if you follow the link, you will see the following information.

 

Child born in the U. S. to a Chinese Parent

According to the Nationality Law of the People's Republic of China, any person born abroad whose parents are both Chinese nationals or one of whose parents is a Chinese national shall have Chinese nationality. The child will be eligible for a Chinese Travel Document (Click to check how to apply for a PRC Travel Document).

The Law also provides that a person whose parents are both Chinese nationals and have both settled abroad (obtained U.S Green Card), or one of whose parents is a Chinese national and has settled abroad(obtained U.S Green Card), and who has acquired foreign nationality at birth shall not have Chinese nationality. The child will be eligible for a Chinese visa. Below are the documents required for visa applications:

 

It still looks good. But, if you follow the link to how to apply for a PRC Travel Document, you will see the following:

A child born in the United States, with either or both parents being Chinese citizens, and when the child is born, neither or both of the Chinese citizens of the parents have obtained the US " green card " or permanent residency in other countries.

　　

　　The mixed situation of Chinese and foreign children born in China is the same as above.

　

　

　　Children of Chinese descent who apply to the above situation should apply for a travel permit to apply for a return to China. If it is not applicable, you should apply for a visa to apply for a return to China (see here for visa procedures for going to China ).

　

The key is the statement "The mixed situation of Chinese and foreign children born in China is the same as above." That is our situation. That is what I am officially being told. My wife was not settled at the time of birth. Everywhere I read on the internet says that it is good for two years. Over the phone, I was told that it was good for 18 years. Perhaps he said or meant that it was good until he was 18 years old.

[Randy W]

It would seem that you'll have to go to the Embassy to apply for a travel document, since your child has no Chinese ID, no Chinese passport, and no hukou (only a Chinese birth certificate) - whenever you're ready.

 

Let them tell you what to do when they see your documentation.

 

Seriously, though - you're there. I'm not. Best of luck with all this - I hope we can hear back.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Randy W (see edit history)

[Randy W]

Greg.D.'s comment was here - his child was born in the U.S. before his wife got her green card - http://candleforlove.com/forums/topic/48346-reflections/?p=639305

We did go to Chicago to get a travel card, rather than a visa, for the baby to visit China.

They were there two months and are back. Met them in San Jose and we hung a few days with my grown son and now we are back in Denver and enjoying the heat wave. Sheesh!

We'll all be back in China maybe next year to renounce the child's Chinese citizenship. I think can only be done there. I do love the country but certain parts and aspects are getting kinda sucky.

[Bert]

Thanks for the link. At least someone else has been through it.

 

Here's the latest in our only in China saga. My wife was miraculously able to get through to the visa center this morning. The woman said our case number was incorrect despite receiving a confirmation email. She told my wife the secret to getting an appointment. Where it asks if the child has a foreign passport, lie and say no. Otherwise, you will never get an appointment, she told her. Her father is in ill health and might die. She asked if there might be a way to expedite the appointment. She said that it opened a "green road". No appointment needed. All we have to do is walk in with the diagnosis. It's probably not that simple. We will see.

[Randy W]

Thanks for the link. At least someone else has been through it.

 

Here's the latest in our only in China saga. My wife was miraculously able to get through to the visa center this morning. The woman said our case number was incorrect despite receiving a confirmation email. She told my wife the secret to getting an appointment. Where it asks if the child has a foreign passport, lie and say no. Otherwise, you will never get an appointment, she told her. Her father is in ill health and might die. She asked if there might be a way to expedite the appointment. She said that it opened a "green road". No appointment needed. All we have to do is walk in with the diagnosis. It's probably not that simple. We will see.

 

 

Of course it is! Once you get in to talk to them, they will tell you what you need to do. That was why I suggested you go there to "apply for a visa". This may be a better approach, though. It's YOU doing the legwork.

 

DON'T FORGET that you want to renounce his citizenship, but you may want to go with the flow as to whether you want to bring it up at this appointment But I would think you would definitely want to bring it up with the PSB in China.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Randy W (see edit history)

[dan1984]

Great topic. Saved for potential future use.

 

Best of luck Bert!

[Bert]

Thanks, Dan!

 

Here's an update. We are almost there. I contacted a second visa service without giving them the details. So, rather than trying to drive the issue, I let them do it. The conclusion was the same--he must have a travel document.

 

We're in Washington DC now. We made an emergency dash on Sunday. Well, actually, we are in Virginia about seven miles away from the Chinese Embassy Visa Section. We went there this morning. Everyone was so nice, from the security guards to the woman at the window. There was never a question; we needed the travel document.

 

The woman behind the window was all smiles. Since I don't speak much Mandarin, all I could do was listen to the tone of the conversation. It didn't sound good. My wife presented her father's medical records. The issue was that they weren't recent. My wife convinced her to accept it. He is sick and could die any minute. He already has memory issues.

 

I was well prepared. I brought everything and she checked everything, even her father's hukou and my son's passport and her green card. I didn't just hand over these to her; she requested them one by one. It ended with the woman telling my wife to fill out the online application for an appointment. She also had to fill out a statement stating her father's medical condition.

 

We went back to the hotel and filled out the application online and made an appointment for mid-January. I believe that I previously mentioned that you have to lie and say your child doesn't have an American passport in order to get an appointment. That's absolutely true. The hotel attendant was gracious enough to print out the application for us. Off we went to the Visa Section, arriving a half hour before it closed. The poor security was worn out. He wasn't so friendly this time and gave us a hassle. But, he didn't make us give up all our stuff before going through the metal detector.

 

We got our ticket and before we sat down, the woman excitedly called my wife by name. She was waiting for us. There was lots of conversation and she seemed to be correcting items on the application. Curiously, she had to enter our son's US passport number on the application. She asked for pictures for the application. I gave her a handful. They needed four or five. She asked my wife if she wanted expedited service, then she asked me. My wife says it was a trick question. I think she was just being kind. She told us that her supervisor had already approved it but we still had to go through an interview. A minute later we were called for an interview. It consisted of giving us a pink pickup slip. No questions.

 

It looks good. We were told to come back tomorrow, Tuesday, between 14:00 and 14:30 to pick up the travel document. If all goes well, we will be on our way soon.

 

As an aside, my wife says that our son will be able to stay up to three months. She asked why his stay was limited if they still considered him to be Chinese. I'm at a loss to answer.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Bert-Jie Lin (see edit history)

[Randy W]

Yes, that makes no sense whatsoever, other than to simply run you through the wringer, but it's great that it worked out for your trip. Good job!

 

It's basically an acknowledgement of his American citizenship, without them letting go of him as a Chinese citizen. Very short-sighted.

[Bert]

Success!

 

The travel document doesn't show an expiration date nor is there a limit on the stay. I guess we will cross that bridge when we get there. The embassy guy told me it was good for 18 years. He was clear that we never had to go back to Washington DC. Everywhere else I read says two years. Quite possibly, it has to be renewed every two years but we don't have to reapply or go back to Washington DC.

 

My wife told me that the woman said he would be issued an "L" visa. She must have misunderstood. Perhaps it is the equivalent of an "L" visa. Nothing was put into his passport. They did not hold his passport, only his original Exit and Entry Permit.

 

 

"The video I posted earlier, though, is where he talks about renouncing her citizenship."

 

I listened to that section a few times. If I understood him correctly, he thought the Exit and Entry Permit would be the equivalent to renouncing citizenship. Only he can say, but there seemed to be a misunderstanding. Like you say, he will know for sure when he applies for a visa. He must have a certificate showing that the citizenship was renounced. That is what he needs in the future so that he can apply for a visa for his daughter in her US passport.

[Randy W]

Success!

 

The travel document doesn't show an expiration date nor is there a limit on the stay. I guess we will cross that bridge when we get there. The embassy guy told me it was good for 18 years. He was clear that we never had to go back to Washington DC. Everywhere else I read says two years. Quite possibly, it has to be renewed every two years but we don't have to reapply or go back to Washington DC.

 

My wife told me that the woman said he would be issued an "L" visa. She must have misunderstood. Perhaps it is the equivalent of an "L" visa. Nothing was put into his passport. They did not hold his passport, only his original Exit and Entry Permit.

 

 

"The video I posted earlier, though, is where he talks about renouncing her citizenship."

 

I listened to that section a few times. If I understood him correctly, he thought the Exit and Entry Permit would be the equivalent to renouncing citizenship. Only he can say, but there seemed to be a misunderstanding. Like you say, he will know for sure when he applies for a visa. He must have a certificate showing that the citizenship was renounced. That is what he needs in the future so that he can apply for a visa for his daughter in her US passport.

 

 

Yes - the travel document is a separate, independent document in lieu of a passport. They won't recognize his American passport, so they won't put a visa in it.

 

The travel document is either a little book that looks similar to a passport, or a card that looks like an ID card. My wife has the travel document card which allows her to travel to Macau and Hong Kong only after she goes to the PSB to "charge" it.

 

Prior to 2014, all you had to do was to apply for a Chinese visa in the American passport - this would break the loop. Renouncing citizenship wasn't required. Older former Chinese citizens who applied for a Chinese visa with an American passport are required to submit their old Chinese passport, which is then voided.

 

The 18 year expiration seems like the latest evolution of the process, and an acceptable situation. I guess after his 18th birthday, they would simply start issuing visas to the American passport. A Chinese passport would have either a 5 year or 10 year expiration. Some of them were issued only for a single trip or two.

 

Cool! This has been a MAJOR headache for several people for the last 4 years,

 

Yes - you may be right about the video, but I have heard from people who were required to submit the citizenship revocation forms. It seems like almost every case over the last 4 years has been different. It's usually a matter of following what they tell you and going with that flow.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Randy W (see edit history)

[Bert]

I came across a discussion on Reddit. If you can wade through the hurling of insults, there are a few nuggets. There are several people "who know for a fact" this or that. One interesting comment was about the procedures vary from region to region. In some regions, the Entry and Exit Permit comes with the renouncing of citizenship; others, not. The logistics seem to be unworkable to me. It is the people in Washington DC who will make the determination. Perhaps it is that the interpretation of the law is changing so fast. On another subject, my wife has been told before, "Check back tomorrow; maybe the rules will have changed."

 

I have heard of a number of people getting an Exit and Entry Permit in Shanghai. They wouldn't do it for my wife. She had to go to her hometown in Hubei. Before they would issue a permit, she had to prove that our son had lived there for two years. It seems to me to be a stupid requirement. He had never lived there. My wife had no choice but to use low people in high places to fake the documents. My guess is the law is the same everywhere but ignorance prevails. You can see in the video where she says something to the effect, "Don't tell me what to do if you don't know what you are talking about."

[Randy W]

There's this that someone posted in that Reddit thread -

 

I have read that some new rules that China will not care about the dual citizenship issue until the child is 18. I think they got this new rule because of the growing numbers of mixed-kids in China.

 

 

 

That would make sense as far as what you experienced.

[Bert]

Here' what the travel document looks like:

 

 

This is the back cover. Notice the wrinkle. Looks like it might be an RFID:

 

 

Photo page. Name and picture changed to protect the guilty:

 

 

Declaration page and notes in Chinese:

 

 

Notes in English. I missed this before. It clearly states that it is for two years, after which, you must apply again. I think that we will renounce rather than going through the hassle again.