New Ken Burns series about Vietnam War

[True Blue]

Is anyone else watching this new Ken Burns documentary series on PBS? I know a lot of you guys served there. If you are watching it,what do you think?

 

http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/home/

 

Here is one review - http://www.dailywire.com/news/21236/ken-burnss-vietnam-episode-1-very-good-2-omissions-spyridon-mitsotakis#

 

Here is another article- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/09/18/7-podcasts-to-listen-to-after-watching-the-vietnam-war/?utm_term=.3f6cbe336cc9

[Greg.D.]

Watching it (including st this moment).

 

learning about the ancient history of French and then Japanese occupation. Apparently no shortage of memo's sent from the field saying it was hopeless and to get out of viet nam and SE Asia since before Truman.

 

Several of the interviewee's said: hey, at first, people were sympathetic to Ho Chi Min cause he was against the French and the French were an abomination. But, then, they began to notice Ho Chi Min killed a lot of Vietnamese .... he was putting communism before country. And, of course, cowardly Mao in the background instigating the slaughter.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Greg.D. (see edit history)

[chilton747]

Is this the series that has cuzin Tsap in it?

[Allon]

Ok. Here's my .02

 

They did not mention Stanley Karnow, the writer who did the first real in depth analysis of Vietnam history that got a lot of attention. They don't give him credit for much of the history behind the war. And that's because he was loudly dissed. Apparently it was not time yet for the truth. But of course, Burns feels we have been in denial about that war. We, and so many other countries, have been in denial about all its wars. What Darby's Rangers did to the British is never discussed in high school, but it is in Ranger school. And it ain't pretty.

 

Earlier, a lot of VN history was in Asian studies programs, studied by scholars and esoteric (at the time) students. Burns is right when he said America barely knew Vietnam on the map until (and he has not got there yet, I hope) Ia Drang. I notice Joe Galloway, the author the book based on the movie, is in the credits. So one time we are going to see a victory in documentary films, however Phyrrhic some seem to think Ia Drang was. To us in America, it was an abstraction. Ia, who? Pronounce it right, and you will get it the joke.

 

I hope they get to Bernard Fall, who also wrote about how crazy the way the war was prosecuted. He was quoted by Karnow in his book. He was French (originally Austrian) and went back to days of the French occupation and Indochina War while he taught in America..He fought in WWII and was killed in Vietnam in '67. I remember when it came out in the news. I was just starting the training pipeline.

 

I am glad they also got John Paul Vann. A Bright and Shining Lie, was Vann's biography by Neil Sheehan, seen in the film. In case a few have not seen the film, I won't won't spoil the ending to his story. The book was required reading later when I went to college.

 

It was difficult to watch for me. And I won't elaborate except to say I still wonder how we made it through the 60's and early '70's. They have not got to Rolling Thunder yet, or the cross border operations. Or the bases we had in Thailand. But they will. And I will probably just turn it off then. Some things still hurt. The '68 Democratic convention does too. For both sides of it. I thought there would be nothing left of America if I got back.

 

Burn's film reminds me of Vietnam, A Television History, an earlier PBS film (1983) that was based a lot on Karnow's book. But we know a lot more since then. Or do we? Burns says he wants us to confront it. I think we have. Thanks.

 

Like how Edward Lansdale (CIA) engineered the election for Diem, something Burns has yet to point out or just skipped over. Burns seems to be pointing to how this was a civil war. Maybe part of it was. I will suspend an opinion until I see the whole thing but it was no civil war. I will be watching what Burns says about the origins and reasons.

 

Most of the veterans I know who are watching it are too young and have enough problems right now as it is. But they do admire the men (and women) who were there. Comparisons are often made about which war was more difficult. They all are. The V W vets I know now are getting fewer and don't want to remember much. One of my college roommates called my wife a dink. To my face. That's how deep it goes, still. He was an MP at the stinking hole of a jail in Saigon. Funny how hate is remembered so much better than nostalgia.

 

I don't think there will ever be a definitive account of any war really, especially Vietnam, and especially if it is a TV documentary. After seeing Burns' The Civil War, I wanted to run down and sign up for that one, whenever and wherever it was. Glorious. Glorious. Lots of flags, Southern talkin', and Yankee songs. What was that war about anyway?

 

Some questions are just universal and meant to be argued.

[True Blue]

Allon,

 

Thank you for your insight and comments. Tonight's episode featured the la Drang battle that you discussed above.

 

I always felt bad about not serving in Vietnam. I was in high school during the worst fighting in Vietnam. Nixon was winding down the war by the time I graduated from high school. By that time, the draft had ended. https://www.sss.gov/About/History-And-Records/Induction-Statistics I went on to college and several years later, the war finally was over. At that time, I think most people suspected the end of the war was not really "the end of the war". The final result would not be a permanently divided country like Korea or Germany (at that time), Vietnam was likely to fall. Peace with Honor was likely to fail. But we were all numb to war from watching the body bags every night on the news.

 

The reception that our returning troops came home to was one of the most shameful periods in American history. To you, Tsap and all other Vietnam vets, I am sorry that a lot of us (the so called "silent majority") did not speak out more strongly against the many a-holes who treated our returning military so badly. I got in a couple fistfights in support of our vets, but that was it. Usually we were outnumbered by the so called "pacifists" who jeered and even spit on some of our veterans. It took until the election of President Ronald Reagan in 1980 to bring pride and some semblance of law and order back to America. A shameful time for this county that no one can deny.

 

TO ALL WHO SERVED, WE ARE ALL VERY GRATEFUL FOR YOUR SACRIFICE ON BEHALF OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY.

 

True Blue

Edited September 20, 2017 by True Blue (see edit history)

[Allon]

Just as I felt about this film, it got to Rolling Thunder and I turned it off. Several sentences just rubbed me raw.

 

I had big long post but deleted it. Let it be.....or let it bleed. It will heal. It always does, doesn't it? Heal?

[MikeandRong]

Just as I felt about this film, it got to Rolling Thunder and I turned it off. Several sentences just rubbed me raw.

 

I had big long post but deleted it. Let it be.....or let it bleed. It will heal. It always does, doesn't it? Heal?

It does heal, however the scars last forever.

[True Blue]

I'm sure it is tough to relive, especially when you were there and saw things first-hand. The film makers came along 45 - 50 years and researched the stories based on what someone may have written including whatever "spin" was given at that time. The film makers do not have the benefit of seeing firsthand what you have seen.

 

They also may have already had some idea of the story that they wanted to tell before delving into the project. They may have focused more on those elements that were in support of the story they decided to tell.

[Allon]

 

They also may have already had some idea of the story that they wanted to tell before delving into the project. They may have focused more on those elements that were in support of the story they decided to tell.

 

Amen.

 

They actually had the Herd on tonight. 173rd Airborne. The Herd. After Dak To, we got a lot of good LRRPs (Long Range Recon Patrols for you REMF's, Rear Echelon Mother F***rs.) to take over the line at Fish Hook which became my new AOR (Area of Ops Responsibility). Before that, it was Khe Sanh, which I saw from the air.

 

They were some good men, most who came down to Banh Me Thout were Rangers, and I knew a few from training. Always wondered what happened to them, if they even made it back. Some didn't.

 

There were a lot of bombing missions to Laos and Cambodia then, before the long bombing halt that LBJ should never have called. We could have ended it right there, despite Walter Cronkite.

[Mick]

I have been watching it and, like Allon, have mixed feelings and have had to turn it off on several occasions. I try not to react to some of the political bullhockey, but it gets tough at times. It has been interesting to hear some of the VC and North Vietnamese soldiers give their views of things. I would go into a lot more detail, but it would serve little purpose right now. The show has stirred up a number of memories and they are just now getting to the year I was there (68).

[Allon]

I have been watching it and, like Allon, have mixed feelings and have had to turn it off on several occasions. I try not to react to some of the political bullhockey, but it gets tough at times. It has been interesting to hear some of the VC and North Vietnamese soldiers give their views of things. I would go into a lot more detail, but it would serve little purpose right now. The show has stirred up a number of memories and they are just now getting to the year I was there (68).

 

Yeah. I can't wait. I am still waiting for the real truth about Tet. We kicked their ass. Saying how many losses they incurred is not enough. The key point made in Tet was that the North had to takeover, which spoiled the lie that it was a civil war. It was an invasion and had been since 1954.

[Allon]

 

I have been watching it and, like Allon, have mixed feelings and have had to turn it off on several occasions. I try not to react to some of the political bullhockey, but it gets tough at times. It has been interesting to hear some of the VC and North Vietnamese soldiers give their views of things. I would go into a lot more detail, but it would serve little purpose right now. The show has stirred up a number of memories and they are just now getting to the year I was there (68).

 

Yeah. I can't wait. I am still waiting for the real truth about Tet. We kicked their ass. Saying how many losses they incurred is not enough. The key point made in Tet was that the North had to takeover, which spoiled the lie that it was a civil war. It was an invasion and had been since 1954.

 

 

 

Tonight Ken Burns goes with the story that Tet was a resounding defeat for South Vietnam and the US. Unfortunately, that is only true if you accept that the US people were already weary with the war and just wanted out. There is no victory but what is defined in battle. To say that North Vietnam was playing a game of psychological warfare is to say they were actually planning such a tactic at that stage in the war. Even their soldiers, from the testimony in the film, say that there was no real purpose, and Le Duan's strategy for the Great Offensive was successful. It wasn't. The South Vietnamese did not rise up against the government and actually the SVN soldiers fought their bravest at the time. Even the Little Tet in May of the same year, was a failure. I was there for that one and almost came home in a body bag. And I was not even in South Vietnam.

 

It was only when the students of the US started their protests, rightfully or wrongly, against the war that the impetus gained for the PRVN to jump on board with Jane Fonda.

 

Now, Tet was a "defeat." It's a case where 20/20 is myopic. Revisionist history comes alive,

 

 

In July 1974 he returned to Vietnam as chief of the Negotiations Division of the Four Party Joint Military Team (FPJMT). The main task of the U.S. delegation was to resolve the status of those Americans still listed as missing. During one of his liaison trips to Hanoi, Harry had his now-famous exchange with his North Vietnamese counterpart. When Harry told him, "You know, you never beat us on the battlefield," Colonel Tu responded, "That may be so, but it is also irrelevant."

https://www.clausewitz.com/readings/SummersObitText.htm

 

It is irrelevant only in that it is used to justify saying North Vietnam "won." No. The American people just walked away. Why? Because they never understood what we were fighting for, or against. It was not communism.

 

I like Michael Moore and agree more than disagree with him. But when he demands that the day the Vietnam war sent its hostages home is a day that we should celebrate the loss of the Vietnam War. We didn't lose the Vietnam War, Mr. Moore.

 

The Vietnam War lost us.

[Dennis143]

I started watching, but quickly decided there wasn't anything new... rehashing a story that's been told and retold often and most often to the ears of those who seem to be deaf to this part of our history. It's just a painful part of our history whose lesson is lost on those in power and that's the most painful part.

[Mick]

 

I have been watching it and, like Allon, have mixed feelings and have had to turn it off on several occasions. I try not to react to some of the political bullhockey, but it gets tough at times. It has been interesting to hear some of the VC and North Vietnamese soldiers give their views of things. I would go into a lot more detail, but it would serve little purpose right now. The show has stirred up a number of memories and they are just now getting to the year I was there (68).

 

Yeah. I can't wait. I am still waiting for the real truth about Tet. We kicked their ass. Saying how many losses they incurred is not enough. The key point made in Tet was that the North had to takeover, which spoiled the lie that it was a civil war. It was an invasion and had been since 1954.

 

 

I watched last night and tonight as they talked about the time period I spent over there. Allon is right on the money when he talks about Tet. It was a major defeat for the North and the VC, despite much planning a subtle movement of arms into the south. I arrived right about the the time Tet began, mid January 68 and it started around the 30th, the Lunar New Year. I had barely got my feet on the ground and was just getting my bearings at the Evac Hospital in Pleiku. Next thing I recall was all hell breaking loose with mortars coming in and even a quickly repelled attempt on Camp Enari. Tonight they showed a nurse at that very hospital. I probably saw her, but have no memory of it as we rotated between hospital duty, dust off flights, and search and destroy forays into the bush. Never made it into the fishhook or Parrot's Beak areas, which I am thankful for. My best friend, who lives in the same city as I do now, spent most of his time there. It was tough duty. Tsap flew that area a good bit as I recall. Don't get me wrong, in and around Pleiku with the 4th division was no picnic, either. Even to this day, I wake up some nights wondering how I made it out of there as a medic. So many died. They mentioned tonight that unlike other wars, medics were armed. They issued me a 45 and a holster, but I also took along a M-16 as well. For some reason, having a full automatic weapon made me feel more secure. I fired it a number of times, but not sure I ever hit anyone.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Mick (see edit history)

[True Blue]

A lot of backlash from Vietnam Vets over Burns slant on Vietnam War -

http://wmot.org/post/tennessee-vets-react-ken-burns-docoumentary-vietnam-war#stream/0

http://nypost.com/2017/09/19/missing-from-ken-burns-vietnam-the-patriotism-and-pride-of-those-who-fought/

http://www.npr.org/2017/09/18/551726505/va-cautions-ken-burns-vietnam-documentary-could-triggger-ptsd