Maybe a bit off topic?

[ghostpayroll]

Hi all

 

Happy Thanksgiving! Being in China again during the holiday left me without yet another turkey dinner.

I am going to throw this out and see what comes back to me.

 

I've been in China for 12 years. A long time yea I know.

 

I am married with two lovely twin girls(6 months).

 

I of course want them to go to school and live in the USA. For obvious reasons. right?

 

Here is the deal:

 

I want them to understand China before I take them home. That means we will remain inside China for at least 5 more years but I am thinking more like 10. So theyll have some school here but no freaking gaokao for my angels.

 

 

I want to know so many things so i'll just have to be anal about it and list them.

 

If anyone can help, way cool. thanks in advance!

 

 

1. If my girls get their American passports but live in China how does it work with visas for them?

2. Do they need a visa?

3. This one is complicated: We did not go to GZ yet because there were issues after the birth but all is well. We didn't want to take the girls on a train at such a young age.

 

So i am sure that I will have to pay some stupid fine. As if I broke a law having children.

 

4. Once my girls get their passports & visa etc blah blah, what do I need to do about getting my wife a tourist visa to go visit my hometown(Chicago)?

5. Is it easy for my kids to go to the USA?

6. What will happen to their hukou?

7. I forsee a major clusterfudge of paperwork, interviews and so on. What could I fully expect to see in terms of getting my girls their passports, visiting chicago and keeping them living in China for the next 10 years.

8. Any external links you may suggest to me?

 

I would like to say that this site is really good and would like to thank all of you here. You make the world a bit easier for us red-tapers.

 

- David

[tsap seui]

I don't have the answers you seek buddy but Dan and Randy will have them for you.

 

Welcome to Candle and good luck with the future for you, your wife, and those two little angels. Very interesting story you have there with life in CHina. I hope you'll post more about your experiences.

 

tsap seui

[Randy W]

Do your children have hukous? If so, you are fine. There is nothing you have violated. There is no need to go to Guangzhou for anything, until you need to prepare to go to the U.S. They ARE American citizens, and entitled to American passports.

 

They need to be registered somehow to live in China - either as Chinese citizens with a hukou, or as foreigners with a foreign passport and visas or residence permits.

 

When the time comes to prepare for them to leave China, you will want to make sure they are properly registered as American citizens

 

There is this statement from the Dept. of State at Birth of U.S. Citizens Abroad

 

Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to promptly document a child who meets the statutory requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.

 

As near as I can tell from reading the entire page, "as soon as possible" means that you need to do this before they turn 18 AND in advance of any trip preparations. I doubt that there's any kind of a penalty for having put this off.

 

For them to leave China using the American passport, you will need to talk to the PSB Entry & Exit Bureau about either an Exit Visa, or a Visa/residence permit for their American passports which will allow them to exit and re-enter China. You will also need to talk to them about what this will do to their hukou. My guess is that they can keep it until the age of 18 (even with dual citizenship), but only they can answer that.

 

It is possible that the PSB will not recognize their American citizenship, and refuse to issue the exit visa/visa/residence permit. If there is any problem obtaining permission from the PSB for them to leave China, the American consulate may be able to help with "pro-forma" visas - U.S. visitor's visas to be issued to their Chinese passports.

 

Another possibility is that they WILL recognize the American citizenship, but cancel their Chinese citizenship and/or hukou, since China does not allow dual citizenship.

 

So their citizenship and the short trip to Chicago is no problem as far as the U.S. is concerned, but a potential can of worms at the Chinese end. Unless you can get better answers about what may happen at the PSB, you may want to strongly consider putting off the trip until they are ready to abandon their Chinese citizenship and hukou for good.

 

Reading back over this - it might be best to simply get the CRBA and American passports for the girls without discussing it with the PSB. While at the consulate, ask about the "pro-forma" visas. This would allow them to exit China and re-enter on the Chinese passports, while using the American passports at the U.S. POE. Be sure to also get the Chinese passports stamped with U.S. entry and exit stamps.

 

Your wife should also be able to get a visitor's visa, but will need to show strong ties to China to ensure her return and that she will not use the trip to immigrate to the U.S.

[newacct]

As near as I can tell from reading the entire page, "as soon as possible" means that you need to do this before they turn 18 AND in advance of any trip preparations. I doubt that there's any kind of a penalty for having put this off.

 

The children are U.S. citizens from birth and are not required to do anything at any age. The CRBA is just a convenient proof that they are already citizens, and is not mandatory. As U.S. citizens, they can get a U.S. passport at any age, and a CRBA is not required for it. It is convenient to have a CRBA or Certificate of Citizenship though as it may be a pain to dig up proof of citizenship based on parents' citizenship if they lose their passport at a later age. The CRBA can only be issued before age 18, but if they want an alternative proof of citizenship after that, they can just get a Certificate of Citizenship.

 

It is possible that the PSB will not recognize their American citizenship, and refuse to issue the exit visa/visa/residence permit. If there is any problem obtaining permission from the PSB for them to leave China, the American consulate may be able to help with "pro-forma" visas - U.S. visitor's visas to be issued to their Chinese passports.

 

Another possibility is that they WILL recognize the American citizenship, but cancel their Chinese citizenship and/or hukou, since China does not allow dual citizenship.

 

It is kind of misleading to say a country "does not allow dual citizenship". Who has each country's nationality and citizenship is determined by that country's law. These children have Chinese citizenship according to Chinese law, and U.S. citizenship according to U.S. law, therefore, they have dual citizenship, which is brought about by proper application of Chinese law. Chinese law says China "does not recognize" that Chinese citizens have dual nationality, meaning they should only recognize the Chinese citizenship of a dual citizen, and not recognize the other nationalities. However, most officials don't understand this.

 

It is much simpler for U.S.-China dual citizens born in the U.S. Under Chinese law, when a child is born in the U.S. with at least one Chinese citizen parent, where the Chinese citizen parent(s) don't have permanent residency in another country at the time of the child's birth, the child automatically has Chinese citizenship at birth. (The child obviously also has U.S. citizenship at birth.) The Chinese consulate will issue these people PRC "Travel Documents", which are passport-like booklets that prove they are Chinese citizens. The Travel Document allows them to enter and leave China without hassle along with their U.S. passport, in a way that a regular Chinese passport and U.S. passport can't (why the border guards treat them differently is beyond me). If the Travel Document expires while in China and they need to leave, then they can go to the PSB to get an Exit Permit, showing the expired Travel Document and U.S. passport. I thought that it should work similarly with dual citizens born in China, but maybe it's different.

 

Under Chinese law, the only ways to lose Chinese citizenship is either by voluntarily acquiring a foreign nationality, or by voluntarily applying to renounce Chinese citizenship. Since neither is the case here (these children have dual citizenship automatically at birth), they should not be able to lose Chinese citizenship. But law is not always applied as written in China.

[Randy W]

 

As near as I can tell from reading the entire page, "as soon as possible" means that you need to do this before they turn 18 AND in advance of any trip preparations. I doubt that there's any kind of a penalty for having put this off.

 

The children are U.S. citizens from birth and are not required to do anything at any age. The CRBA is just a convenient proof that they are already citizens, and is not mandatory. As U.S. citizens, they can get a U.S. passport at any age, and a CRBA is not required for it. It is convenient to have a CRBA or Certificate of Citizenship though as it may be a pain to dig up proof of citizenship based on parents' citizenship if they lose their passport at a later age. The CRBA can only be issued before age 18, but if they want an alternative proof of citizenship after that, they can just get a Certificate of Citizenship.

 

It is possible that the PSB will not recognize their American citizenship, and refuse to issue the exit visa/visa/residence permit. If there is any problem obtaining permission from the PSB for them to leave China, the American consulate may be able to help with "pro-forma" visas - U.S. visitor's visas to be issued to their Chinese passports.

 

Another possibility is that they WILL recognize the American citizenship, but cancel their Chinese citizenship and/or hukou, since China does not allow dual citizenship.

 

It is kind of misleading to say a country "does not allow dual citizenship". Who has each country's nationality and citizenship is determined by that country's law. These children have Chinese citizenship according to Chinese law, and U.S. citizenship according to U.S. law, therefore, they have dual citizenship, which is brought about by proper application of Chinese law. Chinese law says China "does not recognize" that Chinese citizens have dual nationality, meaning they should only recognize the Chinese citizenship of a dual citizen, and not recognize the other nationalities. However, most officials don't understand this.

 

It is much simpler for U.S.-China dual citizens born in the U.S. Under Chinese law, when a child is born in the U.S. with at least one Chinese citizen parent, where the Chinese citizen parent(s) don't have permanent residency in another country at the time of the child's birth, the child automatically has Chinese citizenship at birth. (The child obviously also has U.S. citizenship at birth.) The Chinese consulate will issue these people PRC "Travel Documents", which are passport-like booklets that prove they are Chinese citizens. The Travel Document allows them to enter and leave China without hassle along with their U.S. passport, in a way that a regular Chinese passport and U.S. passport can't (why the border guards treat them differently is beyond me). If the Travel Document expires while in China and they need to leave, then they can go to the PSB to get an Exit Permit, showing the expired Travel Document and U.S. passport. I thought that it should work similarly with dual citizens born in China, but maybe it's different.

 

Under Chinese law, the only ways to lose Chinese citizenship is either by voluntarily acquiring a foreign nationality, or by voluntarily applying to renounce Chinese citizenship. Since neither is the case here (these children have dual citizenship automatically at birth), they should not be able to lose Chinese citizenship. But law is not always applied as written in China.

 

 

 

Yes - YOU need to realize that Chinese law is not written in English. Once again, you are trying to apply your own English language interpretation of Chinese law - a square peg in a round hole

[ghostpayroll]

thanks all. I happened to catch a 3 day flu right after I wrote this.

just had a chance to get on my feet again and take a look here today.

I have to run out at the moment to check something but i will be back very soon and ill be looking over this thread and replying to you guys soon.

 

If i can help anyone, please ask. I'll be happy to do whatever i can

 

- David

[ghostpayroll]

Hi

 

I was really sick. man that was bad.

ok so i read everything and it was clarifying to say the least. I didn't think it was necessary to take them to GZ so soon.

I wouldn't want to have them needing visa's like their father does every year. That process sends me to the bathroom every year.....

 

anyway, as it stands my wife is going to be doing all the hukou stuff very soon and from there we will spend some time over at the PSB office to get as much info about the Chinese side of things.

 

There was a GZ consular who visited here in Fuzhou awhile ago but I missed my chance. I had to work.

 

I think for now we'll get the hukous, talk to the PSB and i will continue reading and talking more about this process.

 

chinese law is hardly ever applied as written. If it is, please someone show me because this place is more like a zoo on most days.

 

legally speaking haha

 

thanks again

[ghostpayroll]

hey guys sorry for long time no see. no puns there ok.

 

I was busy for most of the past time and nothing was going as planned. haha surprise surprise.

 

we never went to gz and now its like 10000 degrees in fuzhou so we dont want to go anywhere.

ill be going home to visit my family in November.

 

ive lived in China for 13 years now.

 

Don't you think I need some time to re-establish my life back in the states first?

 

- david

[ghostpayroll]

sorry for the long delay. was just so busy that i didn't have time to do anything.

we didn't go to gz yet and we are planning to send me abroad in november to re-establish my life there before bring the babes in for a visit.

[dnoblett]

Yes, if you gave up domicile in the states, you will need to show establishing or re established US Domicile in order for your spouse to get an immigrant visa.

[Cantonkev]

Not sure if post still open but we want to travel to the USA - so my son is a USA citizen born in China but has also acquired his Chinese PP and HouKou. To keep these he must travel on his Chinese PP to exit China ( getting a USA visa too) but we must use his US PP to enter the USA. To get the visa we’d have to omit information about his USA citizenship by pretending he’s all Chinese. We could just hide that and show his USA PP when entering the USA. But then he can’t get an entry stamp.... I think we’re screwed but does anyone have any advise on how we can still visit the USA? What will happen if I do the above? Help?

[Randy W]

Not sure if post still open but we want to travel to the USA - so my son is a USA citizen born in China but has also acquired his Chinese PP and HouKou. To keep these he must travel on his Chinese PP to exit China ( getting a USA visa too) but we must use his US PP to enter the USA. To get the visa we’d have to omit information about his USA citizenship by pretending he’s all Chinese. We could just hide that and show his USA PP when entering the USA. But then he can’t get an entry stamp.... I think we’re screwed but does anyone have any advise on how we can still visit the USA? What will happen if I do the above? Help?

 

 

I wouldn't think he'd have a problem simply traveling on his Chinese passport. Worst case would be to renounce his American citizenship or to have his passport revoked, which can be reclaimed later in life.

 

The consulate may wish to issue a "pro-forma" visa, as discussed earlier in this topic.

 

Traveling through a third country such as Hong Kong or Japan may have advantages for your situation.

 

You're not saying a thing about your own circumstances - this may affect the scrutiny he will get from the Immigrations Officers.

[Cantonkev]

Thanks Randy W- I’m just a USA expat with normal US PP. The USA Cons won’t issue a visa to an American so we’d have to omit all kinds of things to apply for a US visa for the Chinese PP, assuming we got it. It’s still fraud. I might try t get a visa to a 3rd country that will stamp her Chinese PP on entry but does not scrutinized or stamp leaving ( Canada? UK?) then use the USA PP to leave and then enter the USA and then just rerout ourselves back the same way. I don’t see any other way.

[Cantonkev]

Randy- One more thing is that a minor cannot renounce their USA citizenship until they are 18, so that avenue is closed too. He can travel anywhere a regular Chinese can go, just not the USA on his Chinese passport. It’s a big catch 22. Any advice is greatly appreciated!

[Randy W]

Thanks Randy W- I’m just a USA expat with normal US PP. The USA Cons won’t issue a visa to an American so we’d have to omit all kinds of things to apply for a US visa for the Chinese PP, assuming we got it. It’s still fraud. I might try t get a visa to a 3rd country that will stamp her Chinese PP on entry but does not scrutinized or stamp leaving ( Canada? UK?) then use the USA PP to leave and then enter the USA and then just rerout ourselves back the same way. I don’t see any other way.

 

 

They can and have issued "pro-forma" visitor's visas to the Chinese passport of American citizens to allow them to leave China. You need to talk to them to find out what they can do for you.

 

I would expect they could void the American passport, if that were necessary.

 

The Chinese PSB also issues travel permits in cases like this, but you probably won't want to show them the American passport. That is usually done for those who are renouncing their Chinese citizenship.

 

Getting a travel permit to Hong Kong from the PSB MAY work, but it would need to cover the entire duration of the trip.

 

You will need to do some legwork, but it can and has been done.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Randy W (see edit history)