The Odyssey - Democracy in Hong Kong

[Randy W]

from the SCMP

 

Hong Kong is becoming a basket case because of a lack of guts to end the anarchy

 

 

• Yonden Lhatoo says the government can start using emergency powers at its disposal to at least tackle lawlessness on the streets, if not end mass protests, but it lacks the stomach and is terrified of international criticism

No wonder this administration just cannot get a grip on the situation after more than three months of civil unrest which now essentially boils down to masses of people taking to the streets every weekend and then going home and either openly supporting or shrugging their shoulders at hundreds of mostly young radicals who regularly block roads, set fire to barricades, hurl petrol bombs at police, trash MTR stations, vandalise public property and beat the stuffing out of anyone who dares to confront them.

. . .

But how about starting with a more measured, systematic, approach to emergency laws specifically targeting the enablers of anarchy, such as the wearing of masks, and the spreading of hate over social media platforms?

You know what Lam’s answer is? She’s not up to it because she’s worried it will “worsen our already damaged reputation in the international community”. Really. Like there’s anything more left to damage when your reputation is already dirt.

 

 

[Randy W]

Carrie Lam faces some of her music - from the SCMP

Agony aunt or punching bag;Carrie Lam toggles both roles at first community dialog as Hongkongers vent anger, reveal hurt feelings but also express love for home

• Leader appeared taken aback at times by outpouring of emotion as participants aired their frustrations over failure to resolve political crisis

 

• At the end, participants were divided over the effectiveness of the dialogue

 

 

 

Quote

“It’s wrong for you to get the police force to resolve political conflicts. Mrs Lam, aren’t you worried that there will be people killed soon in the conflicts?” Sam Ng, 38, asked a sober-looking Lam, as he lamented that society was now deeply divided according to the colours of their political affiliation.

 

“Ninety-seven per cent of people I know are considering emigrating. Do you know how many are scared of police? My youngest son asked me if police could still be trusted, and he is only four years old.”

 

. . .

 

 

“I hope the government upholds ‘one country, two systems’ and lets it work in the way it is supposed to,” said an accounting professional in her 50s, surnamed Cheng. “Your earlier remarks that some protesters have no stake in society … That really hurts.”

 

Another female speaker opened by saying she loved Hong Kong and was sad to see they had “a chief executive who betrays the public, and officials who don’t bear responsibility under the political accountability system”.

 

“I just checked Wikipedia – you will be 90 by 2047 [when the ‘one country, two systems’ policy ends], so it won’t matter to you by then. But I am 26 now and will be 55 by 2047. Do we have a future after that?” he asked.

 

. . .

 

“The future of Hong Kong is in the hands of young people but there is a bottom line. Self-rule and autonomy for Hong Kong is not feasible,” said Lam, who also did not set out new solutions on how to break the impasse between the protesters and the government.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Randy W (see edit history)

[Randy W]

People's Daily, China weighs in on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/188625661189259/posts/2755652341153232/

 

Quote

#Opinion: You cannot make money from China while insulting the country

Have you ever heard of Yao Ming? This Chinese basketball player became an international star for the NBA’s Houston Rockets, helping the professional basketball league gain popularity and influence in China and around the globe. Thanks to Yao Ming, the Rockets reaped the benefits of the huge Chinese market.

In the later stages of Yao’s career with the NBA, Daryl Morey became the general manager of the Rockets. However, the general manager of the team has changed the way that many people see the professional basketball team and the NBA, after he posted the following message on social media: “Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong.”

Morey posted the message on the morning of Oct. 5, following a very dark night of chaos and violence in the special administrative region of Hong Kong, as radical protesters conducted extreme acts to paralyze the city and terrify its residents.

Since June, radical protesters in Hong Kong have escalated their violence against police officers and even ordinary people. They have repeatedly defaced and burned the national flag and have even called on foreign governments to interfere in Hong Kong’s affairs, challenging China’s national sovereignty and security and violating the bottom line of the “One Country, Two Systems” framework.

Week after week, radical protesters have thrown petrol bombs and bricks at police in Hong Kong, destroyed businesses, set fires, shut down the mass transportation system, and have even attacked Mandarin-speaking Chinese.

Morey ignored all this and stood with the mob.

His move shows that the Rockets is two-faced: make money from China but also attack China.

The message he posted on social media is exactly the slogan that certain demonstrators in Hong Kong have shouted in their effort to challenge the “One Country, Two Systems” model and try to split Hong Kong from the mainland.

It is not hard to see what Morey meant to say with this move, and his wrong and shameful post on social media quickly attracted attention. In response to the huge backlash, Morey removed it. Despite this, Morey’s comment has made Chinese fans angry. Under his other posts, thousands of netizens have responded to his support for the radical protesters in Hong Kong who are trying to tear the country apart with extreme violence, and many netizens have reminded him that Hong Kong is a part of China.

In response, Rockets owner Tilman Fertitta said that Morey “does NOT speak for the Houston Rockets,” and he stressed that they “are NOT a political organization.” Despite his effort to distance the team from Morey, we are still face with the situation that Morey has clearly offended Rockets fans in China.

On Weibo, well-known basketball commentator Yang Yi expressed his opinion on this. He wrote that some institutions, like the one Morey serves in, have long gained from China, pointing out that Rockets have received countless sponsors from China in the past 17 years and ESPN has made at least $10 million per year in China in the past four years. China should make them a price, Yang said, concluding, “You cannot make money from China while insulting the country.”

Businesspeople all over the world should know that Hong Kong is a part of China, and anyone who touches the bottom line of the Chinese people should not get away with it. (By Curtis Stone)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Randy W (see edit history)

[Randy W]

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3031828/peoples-liberation-army-warning-protesters-not-military?utm_content=article&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1570430402

 

 

"Hong Kong’s last governor, Chris Patten, also waded into the debate on the anti-mask law."

 

He said: “I fear for the future, unless Carrie Lam actually intervenes and understands the importance of dialogue, understands the importance of talking to people, and understands the importance of giving them the opportunity of reviewing, through an independent commission of inquiry, how we got to this situation.”

[Allon]

The problem in Hong Kong is being paid for by thousands of Chinese dissidents killed in Tiananmen Square, and that is the ugly part of why Carrie Lam is helpless. The HK people know that. Match those lives with the agreement that the Chinese government cannot bring in the PLA without serious consequences internationally, and at a time when there is economic conflict, and you have what Gomer Pyle would say was "a situation."

 

With the PLA massing at the border and veteran troops with a strong combat history barracked right there in the region, get ready for some blood in the street. Xi Jinping just wants to do it right. But he recently repeated, "One country, two systems" -- words that are difficult to take back.

 

I just hope the body count is not as high as T-Square.

[Randy W]

This seems to me to be a surprisingly good analysis of the situation, from an "influential property developer". From the SCMP

 

Carrie Lam is an unfortunately comatose civil servant who graduated to the role of Chief Executive

 

Hong Kong property developer Ronnie Chan calls for strong leader to handle protest crisis and slams ‘ridiculous’ idea of civil servants being in charge

Chan also blames British colonial government and Hongkongers’ lack of a sense of national identity in interview with mainland Chinese platform Guancha Syndicate.

 

 

 

Chan, who supported Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor, a veteran civil servant, in the 2017 election, was blunt when asked about the causes of Hong Kong’s ongoing turmoil. Aside from leadership, he also blamed the British colonial government and Hongkongers’ lack of a sense of national identity.

He continued: “Civil servants are the people most deprived of a sense of national identity and politics … The British locked up the city’s politics tightly – and only released it when they left.”

 

 

[Allon]

Duh. And why do they have a lack of "national identity" after living under democracy for 155 years, regardless of the circumstances of the possession. The HK'ers have had a taste of freedom the mainland only salivates for but joins the government, while under the covers.

 

But it is time for a strong man to emerge to bring some discussion to bear and end the violence. Now if the CP would just let off on the extradition requirement and other entanglements that act as a leash.

 

The Chinese people, and the CP of course, need to recognize that, yes, they were colonized and treated as subjugated peasants for many years -- but due to the lack of a strong central government. Looking at the China map over time, it does not resemble a country that had its possessions form a boundary that was singular. For a period, China was just a set of dynasties, not even joined as the Articles of Confederation were in our history. And the Mongols shared much of the territory claimed by the Chinese, and unlike our native Indians, governed it as well.

 

Taiwan does not even show up until 1912, and even then the central (Chi'ng) government was getting weaker to an eventual revolution that muddied the waters of Taiwan's ownership until the ROC/KMT took it over in 1945 -- before the fall of China to the CCP..

 

Hong Kong of course, is a different issue entirely, but you can't argue that with the Chinese. My wife for instance is still repeating the slogans of her Big Brother history. They still generalize all foreigners, not just British or German or American. And the CIA is behind the riots in Hong Kong, of course.

 

https://www.artsmia.org/art-of-asia/history/chinese-dynasty-map.cfm

[Greg.D.]

 

 

...

The Chinese people, and the CP of course, need to recognize that, yes, they were colonized and treated as subjugated peasants for many years -- but due to the lack of a strong central government. Looking at the China map over time .....

I don't think it was 155 years of democracy, I think it's been about 130-140 years since Hong Kong and then the New Territories were leased as a concession to the British. But, yes, a "different kind of civilization" for better or worse at times.

Indeed, the Qing often granted concessions to far flung areas when they didn't have the means to govern them. They either collected tribute from a controlled area or from the leased area. By no means were the British as bad as the Japanese, whose plan to win a world war included enslaving northeastern China as a labor force.

But, yep, everybody lumped in together as humiliators of China. The students protesting in 1919 in Tien' Anmen protested events of the times as well as weak, traditional political responses to external forces. I.e. they wanted a new form of social organization and government. So, if you just showed up and appeared to have some better ides of how to do things (like build a nation) you could later be accused of humiliating China if not also hurting their feelings.

I did ask the question earlier "when are we going to hear from the 1%, the landowners?" Because you know they've made their deals with Beijing (or, they think they have). They don't want the pesky "people" messing it up. Otherwise, why would that guy (above) get the interview In the first place? Why him and not a random person on the street?

Yeh, blame the British. How many lives were saved by HK not having to endure Mao's purges and famines?

P.S. The problem, of course, is that they have TOO much national identity Edited October 8, 2019 by Randy W
fix quote block (see edit history)

[Randy W]

Democracy was introduced to Hong Kong by the British only as an afterthought, in preparation for the handover to China

 

See "Democratic Development in Hong Kong"

 

Democratic development in Hong Kong has been a major issue since the transfer of sovereignty to China in 1997. The one country, two systems principle allows the Hong Kong government to administer all areas of government except foreign relations and (military) defence separately from the national Chinese government. Many Hong Kong citizens became concerned about democratic development when the first Chief executive of Hong Kong Tung Chee-hwa appeared to have mishandled this issue. Other democracy-related issues involving human rights and universal suffrage (in this case the right to elect Hong Kong leaders through general elections under universal suffrage with no curtailment from the central government of China) became the new focal point for the pro-democracy camp. Ever since the 1950s, the Chinese government has continually threatened the British over any attempts to bring about democratic development in Hong Kong. Attempts to bring Hong Kong citizens to the negotiating table by the British during the Sino-Anglo discussions were rejected by Beijing in the late 1980s. The last governor Chris Patten faced a great deal of opposition in changing the former colony's political system.

 

The Brits sold Hong Kong down the river without ever having established free or democratic elections themselves, with the full expectation that they could expect a Communist landlord to allow that to happen.

[Randy W]

I think comatose is a better description of her than to call her a dictator. A perspective from the anti-government side

 

 

The PLA or a local dictator in the making? That’s no choice for Hong Kong

Born, raised and educated to university level in Hong Kong, I returned to the city on September 27, just before the 70th anniversary of the founding of the People’s Republic of China, so that I can support my home in person, witness the crisis engulfing the city for five months, listen to views from across the socio-economic spectrum, and gather documentary evidence for my academic and policy research. I also did not want to be a fraud or a coward, commenting on my home in the comfort of a foreign land.

. . .

From what I have seen and heard, Hongkongers are in despair at a morally bankrupt government at Tamar so fundamentally devoid of political courage. Courage includes taking responsibility for one’s errors. Not one principal government official, not one Executive Council member, and not one pro-establishment legislator has resigned. Not one police officer has been held accountable for his or her actions.

Cowardice breeds arrogance. In a column in the Post back in July, Paul Serfaty and I wrote that any “dialogue” or “listening” that Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor was offering was purely illusory and doomed to failure. A dialogue takes at least two to tango, and Lam’s “dialogue session” on September 26 showed she was merely parroting herself as she continued to think she knew best.

 

 

[Randy W]

One reason Beijing may be interested in keeping Hong Kong the way it is - once they encroach too far into Hong Kong, this is all over with.

 

2047 may be too close for comfort.

 

From the SCMP

 

Why Shenzhen will not unseat Hong Kong as financial hub

• Hi-tech hub is likely to play a larger role in making yuan a global currency, analysts say, but mainland Chinese capital controls will keep it from becoming a magnet for global investment

• Hong Kong’s freely convertible currency ensures its unique position as China’s window to the world

But capital control in China is what differentiates Hong Kong from Shenzhen and other mainland Chinese cities.

Article 112 of the Basic Law states that “No foreign exchange control policies shall be applied in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. The Hong Kong dollar shall be freely convertible.”

Tight capital control in China is why international banks, brokerages and insurance companies like to set up businesses in Hong Kong so as to access mainland China. Even with China starting to allow easy convertibility of the yuan, some control remains in terms of both bringing money in or taking it out of the country.

 

 

[Randy W]

from the SCMP on the latest "trade deal"

 

Trump says latest US-China trade deal ‘very positive’ for Hong Kong, leaving protesters disappointed he did not back their cause

• China has made ‘great progress’ over the situation in Hong Kong, US president says
• Hong Kong protests have de-escalated, he claims

 

United States President Donald Trump said the trade deal he struck with China on Friday was “very positive” for Hong Kong and claimed the anti-government protests had de-escalated significantly, leaving some demonstrators disappointed he did not push for their cause.

Not long after Trump made the comments in the Oval Office after a meeting with Chinese vice-premier Liu He, he sparked a spirited debate in the protesters’ social media platform LIHKG, as they asked one another whether he was helping or hindering their mission.

Several questioned if they should still work hard to win the support of the US while others said they should just forge their own way forward.

“Trump thinks we should pack it in. We still want to count on the Americans?” A user wrote and won over 1,000 likes in three hours. Another user said: “I have said western countries would only view Hong Kong as their pawn. Don’t be so naive that they value the so-called ‘values of democracy and freedoms’.” The comment won over 160 likes in 3 hours.

 

. . .

 

“We discussed [about] Hong Kong, and I think great progress has been made by China in Hong Kong,” Trump replied.

“I’ve been watching, and I actually told the vice-premier it really has toned down a lot from the initial days of a number of months ago when I saw a lot of people, and I see far fewer now,” he added.

The situation was “going to take care of itself”, he said.

. . .

Hundreds had also gathered to mourn for a 15-year-old girl whose body was revealed on Friday to have been found in the sea last month. Dismissing rumours she could have been killed by police, the force said there was nothing suspicious about her death.

[Randy W]

from the SCMP

 

 

 

 

 

Anyone trying to split China will be crushed, warns leader Xi Jinping

• Comments made during Xi’s visit to Nepal being seen as aimed at trouble spots from Tibet and Xinjiang to Hong Kong
• President’s remarks are also wider warning to US not to meddle in China’s domestic issues, such as Hong Kong, academic says

“Anyone attempting to split China in any part of the country will end in crushed bodies and shattered bones. And any external forces backing such attempts at dividing China will be deemed by the Chinese people as pipe-dreaming,” he was quoted by state media as telling Nepal’s leader during a visit to the Himalayan nation.

 

 

[Randy W]

Hey, MEIGUO! from the SCMP on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/355665009819/posts/10157624710319820/

"President Trump, please liberate Hong Kong!" - Hongkongers filled a downtown park on Monday evening (Oct 14), in a bid to appeal to the US.

Read more here: https://sc.mp/sh6sg

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/355665009819/posts/10157624710319820/

[Allon]

 

...

 

The Chinese people, and the CP of course, need to recognize that, yes, they were colonized and treated as subjugated peasants for many years -- but due to the lack of a strong central government. Looking at the China map over time .....

 

I don't think it was 155 years of democracy, I think it's been about 130-140 years since Hong Kong and then the New Territories were leased as a concession to the British. But, yes, a "different kind of civilization" for better or worse at times.

 

Indeed, the Qing often granted concessions to far flung areas when they didn't have the means to govern them. They either collected tribute from a controlled area or from the leased area. By no means were the British as bad as the Japanese, whose plan to win a world war included enslaving northeastern China as a labor force.

 

But, yep, everybody lumped in together as humiliators of China. The students protesting in 1919 in Tien' Anmen protested events of the times as well as weak, traditional political responses to external forces. I.e. they wanted a new form of social organization and government. So, if you just showed up and appeared to have some better ides of how to do things (like build a nation) you could later be accused of humiliating China if not also hurting their feelings.

 

I did ask the question earlier "when are we going to hear from the 1%, the landowners?" Because you know they've made their deals with Beijing (or, they think they have). They don't want the pesky "people" messing it up. Otherwise, why would that guy (above) get the interview In the first place? Why him and not a random person on the street?

 

Yeh, blame the British. How many lives were saved by HK not having to endure Mao's purges and famines?

 

P.S. The problem, of course, is that they have TOO much national identity

 

 

It's 155/6 depending on month of year to 1997, less the 4 years under Japanese rule. (HK was occupied in 1841 but became a colony in 1843 after haggling with Qing for 2 years, although the British still held it.) To qualify, however, the British were far more concerned about capitalism than democracy, especially in those colonial times. But comparing what democracy was there to the mainland, they were under democracy or at least principles of it, albeit a colonial version. There were other concessions made to the winners of the Opium War, Germany, France, and Russia but they were leased reparations and done later. So the remaining 92% of HK/Kowloon became a lease as well.

 

Hong Island and Kowloon were ceded in perpetuity (despite rewritten history by the CCP) but the leased portions, necessary for ceded portion to be defensible and viably developed at the time since there was nothing there but scrub. 92% of the deal was leased and thus made the "perpetuity" notion untenable. So the British gave it back with guarantees until 2047.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War

Interesting that the later Boxer rebellion reparation given to the US, were reduced by TDR and donated to the university in scholarships that eventually became the famous Tsinghua in Beijing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tsinghua_University