Our first new house together - HELP!

[Fu Lai]

We are buying a brand new 3 bedroom condo/apartment in Wuhan. We are not rich and we are borrowing from the bank. But we will get a concrete apartment, nothing in it. As a kid I helped my father build our family house but "China is different." I have read here before about things I can do to a concrete apartment before we start putting flooring, wall covering, cupboards, sinks etc. in it that would be beneficial for the next 70 years. Can anyone help with some advice?

 

 

[Randy W]

These are pictures I posted on another site while we were working on ours, if you can get to them

 

Someone else's that we looked at (but didn't go with this company) - http://www.chinafamilyvisa.com/forum/index.php?app=gallery&album=70

 

Ours - http://www.chinafamilyvisa.com/forum/index.php?app=gallery&album=84

 

http://www.chinafamilyvisa.com/forum/index.php?app=gallery&album=91

[Beachey]

There really is not a "Do-It-Yourself" Culture in China. I would recommend you shop around for a decoration company that will do it for you. Doing it yourself is not really any cheaper. Others can chime in to what you might want to do first before you decorate.

 

I do know that many of the standard chemicals and materials used outgas for quite a while making the apartment unlivable for months so you might want to see if there is a way to avoid that.

[Dan R]

Fit all plumbing drain lines with S traps to avoid the sewer gas rising. Use a company referred by people you know. Hope you have good air conditioning for summer. Wuhan gets a bit hot. Have you ever been to Ezhou and the Lianhuashan Retreat?

[2mike&jin]

Well, I'm not sure my advice is much good....but we faced the same thing when my wife purchased anew home - and then met me - she foisted the job of building it out to me. Although my Chinese was "passable" it was pretty much worthless with the folks who didn't speak Mandarin - and only spoke the local dialect. Doing it yourself is "fraught" with issues. They have stores - "Home Orient" (THink Home Depot) and I'm pretty sure with a city the size of Wuhan you could find several of them. I looked at becoming my own GC, but I just couldn't make the math work nor the headaches with some of the trades - not to mention the "graft" that it requires if it is a "New Building".

 

Ok, what I did was hire a small GC after interviewing several Contractors to see if they (1) Understood the Scope and Processes, and (2) were reasonable in the price perspective, and more important to me (3) could I control their actions. I went with a fairly small contractor who seemed to grasp all the concepts, actually spoke a word or two of English - not so you could easily tell, but that seemed like he understood that he was dealing with a "Crazy Lao Wei". We agreed that I would pay for the kitchen cabinets/appliances and I would also select and pay for HVAC and Electronics. I also made him set allowances for several items - and that I would choose them, i.e. water heater, washer/dryer, and all lighting. It was a design-build concept, and we set off on getting it done.

 

There were problems. (1) His first onsite supervisor was a "bad guy" and didn't care about his employer or our apartment. I helped him leave the project. (2) Tile setting quality in two or three areas were sloppy and needed redo - (5 times in one place). The concept of "this row of tiles to look exactly like all the rest" was problematic. I just kept saying no - until it was accomplished correctly. (3) I choose the most expensive HVAC unit I could buy - Fujitsu Halcyon and the installation was flawless in appearance - except "The drain was not set to completely drain - and it had to be rerouted and the building had to be re-cored to get the drain at the proper level. A pain in the ass - but no additional cost to me. During execution of the bathroom installations I continually had to ensure that S/P traps were installed, that Commode seals were put in place...and in short "over supervise" the installation of all plumbing - some really strange areas. i.e, wrong hookups (hot vice cold) to my two Fisher Paykel dishwasher drawers, no following of the instructions for install of appliances (although I had Chinese copies for them - not sure the installers could read) - stupid installs of water faucets and "garbage disposal". All, and I mean all appliances that they had never seen -- didn't get installed correctly unless I WAS STANDING OVER THE TOP OF THEM. The Chinese cooktop was installed without issue as they had done it about a 1000 times. Also, you need to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that all vents, i.e. bathroom, kitchen overhead vents - have a "CLOSING" mechanism when not blowing to "CLOSE" to keep everyone else's place in the building from emitting "Sewer GAS" and Kitchen Smells from entering your home! They don't usually do this....so you have to fight to make them figure out what to buy and how to do it. Pictures off the internet usually help in these cases. Also, they love to connect Washers/Dryers, sinks, etc....by placing a small drain - perhaps plastic - in a larger pipe in the floor by just inserting it in the pipe-end of install. No positive - closed connection. Of course after I got finished beating them up --- all of ours were closed connections, with S pipes, all with lint traps etc. (THink Kohler drains etc) Ok, you're probably getting the idea.....of the things that are problematic, plumbing, strange appliances (disposal and dishwashers) and anything that prevents "Smells".

 

I found the HVAC guys to be great - but then again - I picked Fujitsu which is expensive. I made one mistake on appliances - I made them import a 2 drawer dishwasher from NZ, via Hong Kong to Xiamen - and it was totally foreign to them. I should've just gotten a Chinese one - albeit I couldn't find one at the time...don't be fooled by the plate warmers. In short, I carry two rotors over every trip to replace the ones in the Dishwasher drawers because they dry up and freeze up because of non use. Even having the brother-in law run it every two weeks seems to not help.

 

One of the best appliances I put in was a "water filtration system". THink counter top device with 5 filters, dispensing hot and cold water - that you can drink! Unlimited water! It to me is a great machine and so needed in China. (I will tell you my wife still buy's bottled water for trips outside the house)

 

Now the positive side - the GC stood by everything he promised and MADE IT RIGHT in the end. I never had to yell at him - I just told him what was wrong and how to fix it. Someone mysteriously appeared and fixed the issue. He's had people back for the last three years and never charged me a cent. I can't even imagine me doing the work myself or not being able to use him as a focal point. I didn't know enough people or enough sources of supply. I did AV on my own - and used an Audio guy - bought my own Sharp LED TV's and he installed and integrated them with the Philippine Dream Satellite (english speaking programs) so fast I couldn't believe it. All the speakers, installed in the ceilings worked, were balanced, and the integrated professional remote worked 100% the first time - with never any changes.

 

What would I have done differently? I wouldn't have been so pig headed about having the FP Dishwasher Drawers. I wouldn't have gotten the biggest US water heater known to man - because we never use 120 gallons of scalding hot water - it is just too fast to recover with the 220. I would've split the HVAC system into two systems - to prevent the BIG outside unit from being the only source of failure for cold air. (I fixed this with a subsequent small entry way split system). I would've paid the extra money to have them "demo" the reinforced entry way door so that I could put 2-4 door's / panels that my wife originally wanted and blew off as ridiculous...seems to be a Chinese thing - but I should've listened to her and given the building manager the 20,000 yuan to "Bypass" the rules to get what she wanted - of course you all have figured it out....I hear about it every time we are entering our house in China.....SHE...."Sure wished you would've put 2 doors with 2 small side panels as a entry way....would've been so nice! )(*#&)(*)(#^$)(#^)$( Since I didn't listen to her originally I will get to listen to her the rest of my life on this issue. (You can bet the new house we're building in Hawaii has 2 doors and 2 additional side panels at the front entry way - drove the architects crazy - but I learned my lesson. Not much else with my 20/20 hindsight I would've done differently - and I'm very positive I wouldn't have done it myself. I think some people here on the site have done it - and CHOP SUEY, was sure capable of doing his place with his vast amount of experience. But, for me, it was best I hire someone I could beat on to ensure it got done my way. You're probably wondering how much I paid for this service......the GC got approximately 100,000 RMB, total for the 160 M2 place to build out and furnish just a hair short of 1M RMB. Total cost of unit, with build out, 2.6M RMB. Current ~ market price ~ 4.5M RMB. Original parking spot $18K USD sold last year for $63K USD - holding period about 5 years.

 

Best of Luck

[Dan R]

Well, I'm not sure my advice is much good....but we faced the same thing when my wife purchased anew home - and then met me - she foisted the job of building it out to me. Although my Chinese was "passable" it was pretty much worthless with the folks who didn't speak Mandarin - and only spoke the local dialect. Doing it yourself is "fraught" with issues. They have stores - "Home Orient" (THink Home Depot) and I'm pretty sure with a city the size of Wuhan you could find several of them. I looked at becoming my own GC, but I just couldn't make the math work nor the headaches with some of the trades - not to mention the "graft" that it requires if it is a "New Building".

 

Ok, what I did was hire a small GC after interviewing several Contractors to see if they (1) Understood the Scope and Processes, and (2) were reasonable in the price perspective, and more important to me (3) could I control their actions. I went with a fairly small contractor who seemed to grasp all the concepts, actually spoke a word or two of English - not so you could easily tell, but that seemed like he understood that he was dealing with a "Crazy Lao Wei". We agreed that I would pay for the kitchen cabinets/appliances and I would also select and pay for HVAC and Electronics. I also made him set allowances for several items - and that I would choose them, i.e. water heater, washer/dryer, and all lighting. It was a design-build concept, and we set off on getting it done.

 

There were problems. (1) His first onsite supervisor was a "bad guy" and didn't care about his employer or our apartment. I helped him leave the project. (2) Tile setting quality in two or three areas were sloppy and needed redo - (5 times in one place). The concept of "this row of tiles to look exactly like all the rest" was problematic. I just kept saying no - until it was accomplished correctly. (3) I choose the most expensive HVAC unit I could buy - Fujitsu Halcyon and the installation was flawless in appearance - except "The drain was not set to completely drain - and it had to be rerouted and the building had to be re-cored to get the drain at the proper level. A pain in the ass - but no additional cost to me. During execution of the bathroom installations I continually had to ensure that S/P traps were installed, that Commode seals were put in place...and in short "over supervise" the installation of all plumbing - some really strange areas. i.e, wrong hookups (hot vice cold) to my two Fisher Paykel dishwasher drawers, no following of the instructions for install of appliances (although I had Chinese copies for them - not sure the installers could read) - stupid installs of water faucets and "garbage disposal". All, and I mean all appliances that they had never seen -- didn't get installed correctly unless I WAS STANDING OVER THE TOP OF THEM. The Chinese cooktop was installed without issue as they had done it about a 1000 times. Also, you need to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that all vents, i.e. bathroom, kitchen overhead vents - have a "CLOSING" mechanism when not blowing to "CLOSE" to keep everyone else's place in the building from emitting "Sewer GAS" and Kitchen Smells from entering your home! They don't usually do this....so you have to fight to make them figure out what to buy and how to do it. Pictures off the internet usually help in these cases. Also, they love to connect Washers/Dryers, sinks, etc....by placing a small drain - perhaps plastic - in a larger pipe in the floor by just inserting it in the pipe-end of install. No positive - closed connection. Of course after I got finished beating them up --- all of ours were closed connections, with S pipes, all with lint traps etc. (THink Kohler drains etc) Ok, you're probably getting the idea.....of the things that are problematic, plumbing, strange appliances (disposal and dishwashers) and anything that prevents "Smells".

 

I found the HVAC guys to be great - but then again - I picked Fujitsu which is expensive. I made one mistake on appliances - I made them import a 2 drawer dishwasher from NZ, via Hong Kong to Xiamen - and it was totally foreign to them. I should've just gotten a Chinese one - albeit I couldn't find one at the time...don't be fooled by the plate warmers. In short, I carry two rotors over every trip to replace the ones in the Dishwasher drawers because they dry up and freeze up because of non use. Even having the brother-in law run it every two weeks seems to not help.

 

One of the best appliances I put in was a "water filtration system". THink counter top device with 5 filters, dispensing hot and cold water - that you can drink! Unlimited water! It to me is a great machine and so needed in China. (I will tell you my wife still buy's bottled water for trips outside the house)

 

Now the positive side - the GC stood by everything he promised and MADE IT RIGHT in the end. I never had to yell at him - I just told him what was wrong and how to fix it. Someone mysteriously appeared and fixed the issue. He's had people back for the last three years and never charged me a cent. I can't even imagine me doing the work myself or not being able to use him as a focal point. I didn't know enough people or enough sources of supply. I did AV on my own - and used an Audio guy - bought my own Sharp LED TV's and he installed and integrated them with the Philippine Dream Satellite (english speaking programs) so fast I couldn't believe it. All the speakers, installed in the ceilings worked, were balanced, and the integrated professional remote worked 100% the first time - with never any changes.

 

What would I have done differently? I wouldn't have been so pig headed about having the FP Dishwasher Drawers. I wouldn't have gotten the biggest US water heater known to man - because we never use 120 gallons of scalding hot water - it is just too fast to recover with the 220. I would've split the HVAC system into two systems - to prevent the BIG outside unit from being the only source of failure for cold air. (I fixed this with a subsequent small entry way split system). I would've paid the extra money to have them "demo" the reinforced entry way door so that I could put 2-4 door's / panels that my wife originally wanted and blew off as ridiculous...seems to be a Chinese thing - but I should've listened to her and given the building manager the 20,000 yuan to "Bypass" the rules to get what she wanted - of course you all have figured it out....I hear about it every time we are entering our house in China.....SHE...."Sure wished you would've put 2 doors with 2 small side panels as a entry way....would've been so nice! )(*#&)(*)(#^$)(#^)$( Since I didn't listen to her originally I will get to listen to her the rest of my life on this issue. (You can bet the new house we're building in Hawaii has 2 doors and 2 additional side panels at the front entry way - drove the architects crazy - but I learned my lesson. Not much else with my 20/20 hindsight I would've done differently - and I'm very positive I wouldn't have done it myself. I think some people here on the site have done it - and CHOP SUEY, was sure capable of doing his place with his vast amount of experience. But, for me, it was best I hire someone I could beat on to ensure it got done my way. You're probably wondering how much I paid for this service......the GC got approximately 100,000 RMB, total for the 160 M2 place to build out and furnish just a hair short of 1M RMB. Total cost of unit, with build out, 2.6M RMB. Current ~ market price ~ 4.5M RMB. Original parking spot $18K USD sold last year for $63K USD - holding period about 5 years.

 

Best of Luck

 

Great advice for those who follow in your footsteps. Have you thought of becoming a consultant?

[Randy W]

My wife played Mike's role for our place - everything was done in Chinese, and usually the Chinese way. We had NONE of Mike's issues - down to the cable. Our local cable system carries three excellent quality stations - high def nature/science, music, and movie channels - along with some standard Chinese channels - CCTV First Theater, - CHC, and DOX TV - all in English and for around $15USD a month. I feel like I get better programming here than I did in the states. Unfortunately, the program listings are only in Chinese, so I never know when something I want to see is going to be on.

 

Only two of our drains were left untrapped - one is permanently corked over, the other has a stainless steel cap which functions as a trap as long as there's water in it. But the cap restricts the flow of water. In the guest bathroon, I was able to remove the trap entirely (the plumbing has a built-in trap). Our sewer lines are vertical the length of the building, so no mixing of odors. But the drain diameter is smaller, and the traps will tend to clog easier, especially when new because of the plumbing goop they use - keep a plunger handy. The toilets are also smaller diameter, and "water saving" - I usually flush twice for # 2, and at least 4 times for # 1 (I know - TMI).

 

The hot and cold water facets are reversed, unfortunately. All utilities run through the floor. They put a asphalt-like concrete material over it, which you can walk on even while they're laying it. This material has the effect of cooling the hot water pipes VERY quickly as soon as you turn off the faucet.

 

The standard (typical) Chinese A/C is one unit per room - but the refrigerator-sized floor standing units easily handle multiple rooms. Not much A/C is needed here, except when the sun is shining through the windows (the sun is directly overhead in the summer). The concrete will provide a cooling effect - unfortunately, that's especially true in the winter. I have an extra radiator-type heater for my office. We have one floor-standing unit, and three wall-mounts, which pretty well cover the whole place, and a fifth unit for the water heater. It looks like you have utility shafts for the A/C compressors - make sure they use these. Most people here didn't - they have compressors generating both heat and noise on their outside porches. The floor-standing and wall mount units are the most efficient, at least in our experience.

 

I'll second Mike's issue with the A/C drain, however. One unit was mounted so that the coolant lines covered the socket - they couldn't plug it in. When they moved it (after the A/C workers had been long gone), it tilted slightly AWAY from the drain. I had to eventually go in there myself and tilt the drain pan the other way so it wouldn't clog up.

 

The tile work was impeccable (done by real pros), but the caulking and grouting seem to be done by high school kids with a box of bubble gum. A little clean-up can improve the appearance tremendously.

 

Our contractor had never seen a dishwasher, so it was the first thing delivered (it was bought downtown by special order). It only requires water, sewer, and electrical connections, so no problem. But when the kitchen was re-arranged, they used a cheap electrical extension which I had to replace myself a year later.

 

Our bathrooms vent to the outside - our kitchen vent has a closing mechanism, and connects to a vertical, length of the builing exhaust pipe.

 

One thing to be aware of - assuming your windows and doors are weather-stripped, your home is all but hermetically sealed! With all windows closed, turn on the kitchen fan. Then go stand by an open window as far from it as you can get. You'll feel the breeze coming in that window. If the window is closed, when you open or close a bathroom door, you'll be fighting a very slight cushion of air. Our exhaust fan came with a warning that if the windows are closed, it may not be able to suck in enough air - and the air may get a little recirculated if it can't.

 

We have a (approx.) 40 gal water heater. This is enough for ONE shower, with a short wait for another. Be careful with the wall mounted, instant-on units (if you buy those) because of the air circulation issue. Our dishwasher and washer use ONLY cold water - they heat their own. The water heater uses a heat pump - yes, we actually use an A/C compressor for the water heater. The stove is the only thing that uses gas. It uses piped in gas. The meter runs off of a card, which we have to go re-charge by paying money about every 1 1/2 years.

 

Pay attention to the layout of the drop ceiling - they help shape the room (visually), and can make it seem less boxy. But I saw one home that gave the feel of an airline cabin, since the ceilings were a little too closed in.

 

Our stove, even on its lowest setting, will still burn butter - you'll be cooking with higher temperatures than what you're used to.

 

Cabinets and shelves generally use IKEA-style fasteners, but are solid wood or plywood. When they finished our shelves, they put the varnish on FIRST, and then the stain on top of that. The wood grain still shows through, but it gives more of a fake look.

 

We bought a parking space, also for around $18,000USD - the wife figures that up to about a six or eight floor building, you get free ground-level parking. We had to pay for ours - and it already looks like that was a wise choice.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Randy W (see edit history)

[Randy W]

Oh - I also had them put in Internet connections in every room. I had them run the incoming connection to my office, where I would have my own router, which would connect to the other rooms. I never did figure out what they would do for the connection to the other rooms. Every time I brought it up, I was told not to worry about that, that they would take care of it.

 

So it never got done, but my wireless works just fine anyway - I get a good signal anywhere in the house. We have wires in my office, just no way to connect to them.

[Randy W]

. . . and wood tiles (instead of ceramic) will help insulate the floor a little bit and prevent condensation. I've seen our outside ceramic tiles condensing water so fast that I thought it was raining, because of the run-off.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Randy W (see edit history)

[Randy W]

Doors are generally solid wood, with a metal covering (textured and painted). They are generally made-to-order at a nearby warehouse-type shop - cut to size, and welded together - as are the shower stalls.

 

Two of our interior doors are solid wood (only).

[Fu Lai]

All such great info and help. Thanks!

 

My girl (Wuhan native) has bought two other places before which were concrete boxes so she has experience with the contractors. I figured plumbing and ventilation would be the biggest things to watch. The kitchen and bathrooms, plus the heating and cooling are essential. The wiring to all plugs includes an Internet plug even though wireless is what we use now. We already decided on (expensive) wood flooring for most of the place. I don't know if we will have much media things like speakers etc. to do. We'll probably just buy these as we go.

 

I expect to keep this thread going as things progress and contractors are interviewed.

 

She said we should expect to spend about 200,000RMB to get the place fixed up and ready to move in or rent. We had a chance to tour the building yesterday but it is still 10-12 months away from being ready... but we have to choose and pay this Saturday.

 

Some pictures haha

 

 

The way of choosing is fun, the apartment choice list and the order of choosing has been sent. We are #978 for 500+ 3brm (110m2), 500+ 4brm (140m2 - what we really want), and 300+ even larger places (160-180m2). So we will get what we want, the only question is which building and what floor.

 

First there are three groups of 500 choosers per day, Fri-Sat-Sun assembled in a gymnasium around the clock. Each chooser gets three minutes to go to the microphone and announce their choice once their name is called. There are 20 superlarge screens showing which apartments are still available.

 

Then you move to the payment table and the bank personnel are ready there to accept cash, check, or arrange the loan which must be done that day. Trading apartments is allowed for the next week and then it is final. Contractors and everyone else will also be on hand to get in on the $$$.

 

I hope to get some video of this for your laughing pleasure!

[Fu Lai]

Doors are generally solid wood, with a metal covering (textured and painted). They are generally made-to-order at a nearby warehouse-type shop - cut to size, and welded together - as are the shower stalls.

 

Two of our interior doors are solid wood (only).

Yes, the only thing our place comes with is the front door.

[chilton747]

200,000 RMB to fix up the inside after they are finished? WOW!!!!!! I didn't know that Wuhan was this expensive!!

[Randy W]

200,000 RMB to fix up the inside after they are finished? WOW!!!!!! I didn't know that Wuhan was this expensive!!

 

You can spend as much or as little as you want.

[chilton747]

200,000 RMB to fix up the inside after they are finished? WOW!!!!!! I didn't know that Wuhan was this expensive!!

 

You can spend as much or as little as you want.

 

And that's the good thing about it.