Tibetan Buddhism

[knloregon]

China is in its brief Parliamentary session in Beijing (next year is the major Party Congress where power will shift on the national level) ---this annual session, not the rubber stamp it once was, still is pre-programed. Meanwhile, outside, western media, (in this case, Reuters) trolling for news manages to catch up with Padmaa Choling, the Chinese appointed governor of Tibet---himself a Tibetan, but also a PLA vet.

 

The Dalai Lama, in India has been batting about the idea of appointing his own successor for a couple of years now. Padma Choling goes on record with Reuters that his belief is that the Dalai Lama has no right to abandon succession through reincarnation, which to me at least, seems consistent, and sort of fundamental to the practice of Tibetan Buddhism.

 

From a Christian perspective, Christians have for several thousand years now, died as martyrs rather than deny Jesus Christ. And I'd be very surprised if a past Pope (Dalai Lama equivalent) had ever bent scripture to this extent--- to preserve the Church at all costs.

 

 

So what does the Candle think?

[TLB]

I'm not sure about bending scripture, but there are interesting parallels with the Papal Schism in Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Schism in that the Romans were trying to control who the next Pope would be and there ended up being two simultaneously (like what the Chinese tried to do in the 90s).

 

Tibetans fear China will try to sabotage the process and declare the next Dalai Lama. The current one has said he won't reincarnate in a place that is not free. Very few Tibetan Buddhists follow the Chinese appointed leader.

 

Stay tuned...

Edited March 8, 2011 by TLB (see edit history)

[pbatt]

Throughout the years I think all religion has been bent some. Wars have been fought over religion. Even the US was founded based on Religion and religious priciples. I read the articles you refer to and also seem to remember that the Dalai Lama had said long ago one was born to succeed him but he was being held under house arrest and replaced by someone else.If this is true then I can understand his feelings.

Problems in India also with over 8 million in cash being found going to the head of the Buddhism sect there.I was in Tibet in Lhasa in 2007 on a tour,I was fortuante to get in and out without any trouble at all.I was amazed at the strength and devotion of all Buddhists there.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the future.

[warpedbored]

The problem with Tibet under the Dalli Lama is it was a theocracy. Look the world over and anywhere there is a theocracy it is a society ridden with the religious few of the minority being oppressed by the church. Iran is a prime example. Anyone who believes that Tibetan Buddhism was a benevolent society hasn't done their research. The Tibetan people are much better off under Chinese rule. They have a growing infrastructure, schools and their daughters aren't sold off to support the church. Here is an interesting read on the other side of the story. One you won't hear from Hollywood actors who wannabe Buddhists.

 

http://revcom.us/a/firstvol/tibet/tibet1.htm

[pbatt]

Very interesting and informative article, thanks for posting the link.

[knloregon]

Thanks for posting this Carl, but one thing I note: Much of the information in this article is nearly identical with written pamphlets I requested from the SF PRC consulate about 8 years ago. As much as the west would like to see a prettier picture----no matter what political/religious system ----- life on the Tibetan Plateau is hard! ---The elevation is so high that little grows in the short season--my experience is one of amazement that they do as well as they do ---- but it seems, (I was on the Tibetan Plateau in late 2006---but not Tibet proper) one of the great boosts to the economy is PRC investment---that plus western tourist dollars. Much of the article Carl posted rings true. I certainly didn't get a feeling of equality (equal status) between the Tibetan men and women while I was there. But Tibetans as a whole, most certainly were more relaxed (laid back) than their Han counterparts. Part of that was certainly because their religion, which was practiced openly, and often in the public venue. Part was because they weren't hustling to make a living like the Han---always do.

 

I do agree though, that there is no such thing a good "Theocratic" government. I met some Bai minority while I was there---they could not have been in one town I visited --- by religious law ---- before the PRC took control --- and they seemed actually fearful of a return of the Dalai Lama.

[knloregon]

----Western Schism ~ interesting link, TLB, but in my view, not exactly the same as the relationship between Tibet and PRC. Yes, Rome was a player, but not as powerful as in the past. Christians in the first several centuries were the ones put to the real test by Rome. The Western Schism (as far as I can tell----I haven't studied it) was an internal power struggle within the Church. ---one of several that predated the Reformation---the Big split! Orthodox Church predated even this by hundreds of years .. ---closer to a thousand...

[Mick]

----Western Schism ~ interesting link, TLB, but in my view, not exactly the same as the relationship between Tibet and PRC. Yes, Rome was a player, but not as powerful as in the past. Christians in the first several centuries were the ones put to the real test by Rome. The Western Schism (as far as I can tell----I haven't studied it) was an internal power struggle within the Church. ---one of several that predated the Reformation---the Big split! Orthodox Church predated even this by hundreds of years .. ---closer to a thousand...

 

Orthodox Church (Eastern Church) had the big split (The Great Schism) in 1054. The other schism, when there were two popes, is often called "The Avignon Captivity" - when one pope was in Rome and the other in Avignon. The "Captivity" part came from playing on the Old Testament time of the "Babylonian Captivity," when the Hebrews were held captive in Babylon.

 

I agree with the point Carl is making about the Tibetans being better off with PRC control. I am very sympathetic to the Buddhists and, as some of you know, spent close to a year in a Zen monastic setting shortly after my return from Nam. We in the West, however, have a very skewed view of Tibetan history. Life under the Dalai Lama was far from a peaceful paradise. The Dalai Lama was far removed from what went on in day to day life in the hinterland. Hold up in the Potala, he had little contact with his people. In fact, the countryside was under the thumb of corrupt abbotts and priests who extorted money and goods from the locals. Sexual slavery was not unheard of.....Yes, Hollywood perpetuates a false view of things but you can never convince America's Buddhist community of that.....at least not the quasi-Buddhist masses whose closest contact with the real thing is the book gathering dust on their bedstand.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Mick (see edit history)

[knloregon]

."....at least not the quasi-Buddhist masses whose closest contact with the real thing is the book gathering dust on their bedstand. ..."

 

Or as is the case here in Portland----- the cast concrete Buddha in the garden (big sellers, guaranteed 'hip' cachet -- at summer lawn parties).

 

Yours is an interesting perspective, Mick.

 

One of the most memorable images on the plateau ---- really bleak countryside, rocky field ---more rock than dirt, not unlike central Oregon--- an old woman who looked permanently bent, carrying a huge coarse reed basket, filled---overflowing! with what must have been 100 lbs. of dried yack pies (dung) supported by both shoulder straps and a rag forehead strap.

 

Watching her I couldn't for the life of me see how she managed to fill the basket and shoulder it without spilling the contents ---then she staggers almost--- over to a pie on the ground, and inserts the end of her walking stick under it, and flips it like a pancake over her head! And although its out of her sight range, as it hits on the top of her pile of pies, manages to move naturally to balance it on top---just by feel! Remarkable!

[knloregon]

And in support of Mick's perspective of the corrupt (actual) administration of Tibet prior to PRC involvement. Here's a little fact that even the 'Save Tibet' crowd can't deny as Communist propaganda: According to CDC, Tibet suffered under the Dalai Lama (prior to the current one) the last major pandemic of small pox. No need to inoculate if you have faith, I guess...

[TLB]

And in support of Mick's perspective of the corrupt (actual) administration of Tibet prior to PRC involvement. Here's a little fact that even the 'Save Tibet' crowd can't deny as Communist propaganda: According to CDC, Tibet suffered under the Dalai Lama (prior to the current one) the last major pandemic of small pox. No need to inoculate if you have faith, I guess...

 

 

well, I guess I should be glad the PRC is in control now, since apparently what they're setting up there is benevolent, better for the people (well, the ones the PRC soldiers didn't kill, anyway) and non-corrupt -- like the rest of the PRC I guess...

[Mick]

And in support of Mick's perspective of the corrupt (actual) administration of Tibet prior to PRC involvement. Here's a little fact that even the 'Save Tibet' crowd can't deny as Communist propaganda: According to CDC, Tibet suffered under the Dalai Lama (prior to the current one) the last major pandemic of small pox. No need to inoculate if you have faith, I guess...

 

 

well, I guess I should be glad the PRC is in control now, since apparently what they're setting up there is benevolent, better for the people (well, the ones the PRC soldiers didn't kill, anyway) and non-corrupt -- like the rest of the PRC I guess...

 

What they have now is far from perfect, of course. But still, I think it is imperative that folks do proper research and take a balanced view of things. I don't support the invasion of any country by another, such as China into Tibet. All I'm saying is that the idyllic and noble image we have of Tibet under Buddhist rule is far from accurate. There is no denying that from a material standpoint, the Tibetans are better off since 1950 - but then, one cannot measure quality of life just on material issues. Most Tibetans I talked to when I lived in China, including three who were professors at the school where I taught, all stated they wouldn't go back to the way things used to be under any circumstance. It is a touchy issue and of course there are varying opinions. What I have given is only mine, but I do feel it is a balanced view. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think so.

[RivaRich]

The Dalai Lama's Retirement:

 

http://gothamist.com/2011/03/11/tibet_houses_robert_thurman_explain.php

Edited March 11, 2011 by RivaRich (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

What they have now is far from perfect, of course. But still, I think it is imperative that folks do proper research and take a balanced view of things. I don't support the invasion of any country by another, such as China into Tibet. All I'm saying is that the idyllic and noble image we have of Tibet under Buddhist rule is far from accurate. There is no denying that from a material standpoint, the Tibetans are better off since 1950 - but then, one cannot measure quality of life just on material issues. Most Tibetans I talked to when I lived in China, including three who were professors at the school where I taught, all stated they wouldn't go back to the way things used to be under any circumstance. It is a touchy issue and of course there are varying opinions. What I have given is only mine, but I do feel it is a balanced view. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think so.

I don't usually talk about anything regarding Tibet since I just don't care (for lack of a better emotion). But your post got me thinking.

 

If we research and take a balanced view, does that really matter? Will that change the chinese decision? I am just curious as to this conceit since I think it is repeated so frequently but now I want want know what is its point.

 

 

All I'm saying is that the idyllic and noble image we have of Tibet under Buddhist rule is far from accurate.

I for one have no idyllic and noble image. I am not even sure what that means.

 

There is no denying that from a material standpoint, the Tibetans are better off since 1950 - but then, one cannot measure quality of life just on material issues. Most Tibetans I talked to when I lived in China, including three who were professors at the school where I taught, all stated they wouldn't go back to the way things used to be under any circumstance.

I found this quite interesting but without much meaning in the end. I can find 3 guys who would do anything imaginable, but I want to follow the point if possible. My opinion (and completely naive) would be to NOT ask academics their opinion, but the common person. If life is better, then... well... life is better. Who is fighting for the issues here and what are the real issues ?

[Zhou Zhou]

We went to Lhasa during the economic slow down when most construction stopped in Eastern China. Not at all like that in Tibet. There was building in many places and much road and bridge construction. I had read and heard about the billions of yuan the government puts into Tibet for infrastructure, education, health care and for restoring old temples and religious sites. We look back on our trip there and joke about it...The holy people that offered to pray for us 20 rmb, the nasty people, dirty streets, rudeness towards tourists and the major occupation of the locals was to crowd around tourists and demand money. I've been to several crappy places in the world, but Lhasa was a shit hole.