What human rights abuses?

[2mike&jin]

Hey all, speaking on the issue of human rights in China....... During my research for my Persuasion Theory class, I happened to find this Journal article written by UCLA Law professor Randall Peerenboom: "Assessing Human Rights in China: Why the Double Standard?" It is very interesting and makes you think.

 

Here is the link for the PDF version of it: "Assessing Human Rights in China: Why the Double Standard?"

 

 

 

I think this is an excellent article - probably because I agree with so much that is contained within it. Just one opinion - and not nearly as strong as my feeling about pre-nupt's (Joke) -- I have supported my country, often during the 22 years in the military by placing myself in harms way, have been shot several times defending it, but sometimes it seems that the US sure doesn't play fair in the "do as I say not as I do" arena. I know this discussion is about "freedoms" but I have, as many others have indicated, a hard time discerning the day to day differences in life in the US vice China in terms of "freedoms". Albeit, I am not trying to "right a perceived or actual wrong", have not carried the banner of "child labor" or "women's rights" or for that matter "worker safety standards" - but just have tried to follow the rules of the land, whichever land that might be, as I go about my daily activities. Certainly, China has made huge progress in most of these "human rights" and "freedom areas" and should be encouraged to continue these advances - not ridiculed and chastised for individual cases.

 

After my 60+ years in the US, I call into question everyday "how upside down" the US has become in our actions. We encourage and condone "illegal entry" to our country. We have created the worlds largest ponzi scheme within our Government--SSN, that will "implode" in our life time (or your lifetime - may be too late for me), we have foisted medical expenses and administrative procedures on ever corporation and individual in our country so that potentially 30 million can have some "form of health insurance" for which they have no credible method of paying. We have tax code and laws that are so voluminous and complex they cannot be understood by the average person and are burdening our national ability to produce goods and services.

 

I suggest we as a country need to look more at what we can do as a nation to coalesce around the "middle" instead of being frozen in bi-polar inaction spurned by our freedom to say whatever we want whenever we want that both divides and angers all of us, regardless of our side of each individual issue. We need to take a hard look within our country before we start slinging too much mud at others. I guess we need a leader - to bring the country together - or have we morphed to the point that no person can lead an angry undisciplined society? (Event though than sounded good I'm not sure we are really an "angry undisciplined society" - if we were how could be tolerate the invasion by the Government of every aspect of our personal lives (and death) in the US?)

 

Just an aside: Does it bother anyone else that when one watches major network news shows (CNN, FOX, ETC) that all they do is argue, interrupt, and give the appearance of engaging in a rude fight?

[tsap seui]

Hey all, speaking on the issue of human rights in China....... During my research for my Persuasion Theory class, I happened to find this Journal article written by UCLA Law professor Randall Peerenboom: "Assessing Human Rights in China: Why the Double Standard?" It is very interesting and makes you think.

 

Here is the link for the PDF version of it: "Assessing Human Rights in China: Why the Double Standard?"

 

 

 

I think this is an excellent article - probably because I agree with so much that is contained within it. Just one opinion - and not nearly as strong as my feeling about pre-nupt's (Joke) -- I have supported my country, often during the 22 years in the military by placing myself in harms way, have been shot several times defending it, but sometimes it seems that the US sure doesn't play fair in the "do as I say not as I do" arena. I know this discussion is about "freedoms" but I have, as many others have indicated, a hard time discerning the day to day differences in life in the US vice China in terms of "freedoms". Albeit, I am not trying to "right a perceived or actual wrong", have not carried the banner of "child labor" or "women's rights" or for that matter "worker safety standards" - but just have tried to follow the rules of the land, whichever land that might be, as I go about my daily activities. Certainly, China has made huge progress in most of these "human rights" and "freedom areas" and should be encouraged to continue these advances - not ridiculed and chastised for individual cases.

 

After my 60+ years in the US, I call into question everyday "how upside down" the US has become in our actions. We encourage and condone "illegal entry" to our country. We have created the worlds largest ponzi scheme within our Government--SSN, that will "implode" in our life time (or your lifetime - may be too late for me), we have foisted medical expenses and administrative procedures on ever corporation and individual in our country so that potentially 30 million can have some "form of health insurance" for which they have no credible method of paying. We have tax code and laws that are so voluminous and complex they cannot be understood by the average person and are burdening our national ability to produce goods and services.

 

I suggest we as a country need to look more at what we can do as a nation to coalesce around the "middle" instead of being frozen in bi-polar inaction spurned by our freedom to say whatever we want whenever we want that both divides and angers all of us, regardless of our side of each individual issue. We need to take a hard look within our country before we start slinging too much mud at others. I guess we need a leader - to bring the country together - or have we morphed to the point that no person can lead an angry undisciplined society? (Event though than sounded good I'm not sure we are really an "angry undisciplined society" - if we were how could be tolerate the invasion by the Government of every aspect of our personal lives (and death) in the US?)

 

Just an aside: Does it bother anyone else that when one watches major network news shows (CNN, FOX, ETC) that all they do is argue, interrupt, and give the appearance of engaging in a rude fight?

 

 

Great post Mike.

 

Sorry I can't answer your question.....I don't watch CNN, FOX, or ETC, heck, when I had a TV I was too busy watching the reality of Homey Smpson to watch those Un-reality shows.

 

 

tsap seui

[credzba]

Hey all, speaking on the issue of human rights in China....... During my research for my Persuasion Theory class, I happened to find this Journal article written by UCLA Law professor Randall Peerenboom: "Assessing Human Rights in China: Why the Double Standard?" It is very interesting and makes you think.

 

Here is the link for the PDF version of it: "Assessing Human Rights in China: Why the Double Standard?"

 

 

 

I think this is an excellent article - probably because I agree with so much that is contained within it. Just one opinion - and not nearly as strong as my feeling about pre-nupt's (Joke) -- I have supported my country, often during the 22 years in the military by placing myself in harms way, have been shot several times defending it, but sometimes it seems that the US sure doesn't play fair in the "do as I say not as I do" arena. I know this discussion is about "freedoms" but I have, as many others have indicated, a hard time discerning the day to day differences in life in the US vice China in terms of "freedoms". Albeit, I am not trying to "right a perceived or actual wrong", have not carried the banner of "child labor" or "women's rights" or for that matter "worker safety standards" - but just have tried to follow the rules of the land, whichever land that might be, as I go about my daily activities. Certainly, China has made huge progress in most of these "human rights" and "freedom areas" and should be encouraged to continue these advances - not ridiculed and chastised for individual cases.

 

After my 60+ years in the US, I call into question everyday "how upside down" the US has become in our actions. We encourage and condone "illegal entry" to our country. We have created the worlds largest ponzi scheme within our Government--SSN, that will "implode" in our life time (or your lifetime - may be too late for me), we have foisted medical expenses and administrative procedures on ever corporation and individual in our country so that potentially 30 million can have some "form of health insurance" for which they have no credible method of paying. We have tax code and laws that are so voluminous and complex they cannot be understood by the average person and are burdening our national ability to produce goods and services.

 

I suggest we as a country need to look more at what we can do as a nation to coalesce around the "middle" instead of being frozen in bi-polar inaction spurned by our freedom to say whatever we want whenever we want that both divides and angers all of us, regardless of our side of each individual issue. We need to take a hard look within our country before we start slinging too much mud at others. I guess we need a leader - to bring the country together - or have we morphed to the point that no person can lead an angry undisciplined society? (Event though than sounded good I'm not sure we are really an "angry undisciplined society" - if we were how could be tolerate the invasion by the Government of every aspect of our personal lives (and death) in the US?)

 

Just an aside: Does it bother anyone else that when one watches major network news shows (CNN, FOX, ETC) that all they do is argue, interrupt, and give the appearance of engaging in a rude fight?

 

 

Good post Mike, and while I DON'T agree with your pre-nup views it seems we agree on most other topics.

 

At any rate, I still haven't finished that paper.. half way through, but it will have to wait till tomorrow.

So far, I think it is well written, and balanced.

[knloregon]

But along this vein, its been a couple of years since the the US State Department has had the their "business as usual" audacity to label China a "Human Rights Violator" ----for obvious political and financial reasons. ----in the past when they have, China has ALWAYS pushed back-----but of course, China's push back NEVER made it into the NY Times, or ANY legitimate news organization.

 

The content of the push-back can be found on the internet, and while I don't have the most recent example in front of me, the content is totally valid----from a Chinese perspective. They cite specific examples from US news stories, about gun violence in poor neighborhoods, open drug dealing in same, and the most SHAMEFUL truth---America's inability to apply discipline in its poorer schools, and bring the ghetto kids out of poverty----The disciplined Chinese society CLEARLY applies on a routine basis for 10's of millions of poor, rural children. They cite drug addled parents, unfit to raise their own kids, and a government which has little concern for the kid's welfare. (here in Oregon, we have horrible examples, from which China could chose).

 

No one in the West reads it. China's point is this: We take care of our own----collectively. We don't allow the wide spread social rot that the West allows in the name of 'individual freedom'.

[warpedbored]

Try publishing a book on the Chinese government's abuse of power at Tiananmen square in China. The Chinese government is in control of everything that is published. If you were to hand out flyers on the street criticizing the government's handling of several issues such as Falon Gong, Tiananmen square, political prisoners, Taiwan etc etc etc you would soon find yourself in prison.

[warpedbored]

I don't think one is better than the other. They are just different. My point is that a lot of us tend to over romanticize China and paint a better picture of her than she is. To say that human rights violations don't occur there is ludicrous. At the same time the US is no Utopia either. Our own government has it's fair share of problems. There are some basic differences we take for granted. Here we have freedom of the press and can print, publish and distribute anything we wish. Not so in China. As long as you are aware of these limitations you can live a decent life there free from government intrusion.

[Yuanyang]

Found this today on BBC "Chinese vereran politicians call for reform"

A group of 23 Communist Party elders in China has written a letter calling for an end to the country's restrictions on freedom of speech. The letter says freedom of expression is promised in the Chinese constitution but not allowed in practice.They want people to be able to freely express themselves on the internet and want more respect for journalists.

...

The authors of the letter describe China's current censorship system as a scandal and an embarrassment. The signatories describe the propaganda department as "invisible black hands".

...

 

It'll be interesting to see what happens to them.

 

For all the comparisons the major differences in USA vs. China is that we don't lock people up for expressing their disagreement with government policy, etc... If anyone can point to specific cases where such retaliations have occured in the USA (since Nixon that is) please do so.

[griz326]

For all the comparisons the major differences in USA vs. China is that we don't lock people up for expressing their disagreement with government policy, etc... If anyone can point to specific cases where such retaliations have occured in the USA (since Nixon that is) please do so.

 

What does Nixon have to do with this? Are you excusing US digressions before and after him, but making no excuses because Nixon was a BAD MAN? How 'bout Mayor Daley?

 

Practically speaking, I agree with your assessment (not the Nixon part). However, protesters are often jailed in connection with their protests; political dissidents are locked up too on charges appearing to be unrelated to their politics. Civil rights protesters were often jailed along with black activists, skinheads and a myriad of other political activists.

 

There are many who would claim the arrests in protests over the Arizona immigration law were politically motivated:

 

http://blogs.chron.com/immigration/archives/2010/07/post_425.html

 

The same with the Dream Act protesters:

 

http://augustafreepress.com/2010/07/27/emu-grad-among-dream-act-protestors-arrested/

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/07/21/20100721dream-protesters-arrested-abrk0721.html

http://washingtonindependent.com/92104/dream-act-supporters-arrested-durbins-office-calls-their-actions-inappropriate

 

...and what about those wackos still being held in Guantanamo? Wouldn't most of them argue they're being detained for political reasons?

 

No one (that we hear about) is ever arrested and jailed long-term for being a loud-mouth, political activist, but the cops regularly dream up something else and from time to time the detention extends longer than the activists expect (so long as we hear about them).

 

...but back to the agreeing part, I know of no one pounding salt in the mines because of their political views. However, having had the barrel of a .38 special put to my head by a cop because of my reporting and many similar forms of heavy handed intimidation based on my work by other cops and government agencies, it is impossible for me to believe that it NEVER HAPPENS in the USA. I'll buy that it VERY RARELY HAPPENS, but not NEVER.

Edited October 14, 2010 by griz326 (see edit history)

[Jeikun]

There is also a difference (maybe not to the guy at the buisness end of a .38,mind you) between corrupt individuals within a system acting illegally and the system itself being designed that way with full force of law behind it.

[Jeikun]

Interesting how this topic has turned. Rather normal, I guess, but from the premise that China's human rights ain't as bad as some claim, it turns into how much 'better' the US is. Another US vs them.

 

 

 

You missed a vital step in the progression, Don. It went from "what abuses in China?" to "The USA is just as bad or even worse!" to "No it's not! In the US we have ___." Same end. Opposite means. Nitpicking maybe, but I always find the devil to be in the details, yes?

[amberjack1234]

Come on griz these are illegal aliens that you are defending no matter how you look at it and should be sent back to Mexico, them and their relatives. If this DREAM bill is passed they will have their foot in the door to keep their illegal parents here too. What am I saying. They are here and are not going anywhere and they know it. When they can demonstrate carrying signs saying that they are illegal, in essence daring the authorities to arrest them and send them back and what for they will be back within a week. Just another attempt to circumvent the laws that are in place how.

 

I am not against them being here because of where they come from. I have been to Mexico many times and seen the conditions there. I believe that everyone that wants to become an American citizen should have that opportunity but they should go about it legally not by swimming the Rio Grand. This is after all how our country was built but there has to be restraints or else. In stead of having 300 million people here we would have something like 2 billion and what would that do to the economy. We can only support so many of them with jobs. It is impossible to just open the doors and let everyone flow in as they please. Surely even you can see this.

 

I would be willing to bet that they were arrested and then released on their own behalf withing 24 hours or less in most cases. In China you might spend several week, months or even years in detention if you were to take part in a similar protest as the DREAM protesters did here in the US. Especially if you were one of the organizers.

 

The guys in Guantanamo? I have mixed feeling about this. I do feel that they are being held without due process. Try them and if there is enough evidence to convict them so be it keep them there and if there is not enough evidence to convict them turn em loose.

 

 

Larry

[danb]

Hello, I would have to agree that this discussion has diverged a fair amount. I wonder if it should be split into two seperate discussions. The title of this discussion is : " What human rights abuses?" And it brought up the case of Liu XiaoBo.

 

I read the other day that since he can't go to Norway that Liu XiaoBo's wife may try to go in his place. But his wife may not be free to travel to Norway and that she is not able to speak freely to the press and other concerned groups.

 

I wonder exactly what are considered human rights. Is freedom of speech and freedom of religion the same right or are they separate rights. Are things like bringing 20 bibles to another country (the right of freedom of religion) or gun ownership (the right to bear arms) considered human rights. I wonder how organizations like Amnesty International or other NGO's would grade the US and China in the human rights. And how would they compare with other countries such as Darfur, Somalia, Rwanda, Iran, or N. Korea? Depending on who you ask I am sure the answer will vary.

 

Danb

[knloregon]

The "Party Elders" manifesto is big news. Several signatories (because of their reputations) can not be easily dismissed, or silenced, as in years past---thanks in large part to the internet. And since Wen's comments in Shenzhen, ---even less chance. Perhaps we are seeing political positioning in the run up to the leadership change in 2012. Certainly, the Chinese military wanted more power, but have badly overplayed their hand in recent months, and this could be a shot from the left (as if there is one in PRC) --- for liberalization. Wen is an interesting character, and perhaps, positioning himself as a reformer as he goes out of office.

[Randy W]

 

 

...but back to the agreeing part, I know of no one pounding salt in the mines because of their political views. However, having had the barrel of a .38 special put to my head by a cop because of my reporting and many similar forms of heavy handed intimidation based on my work by other cops and government agencies, it is impossible for me to believe that it NEVER HAPPENS in the USA. I'll buy that it VERY RARELY HAPPENS, but not NEVER.

 

 

We seem to easily confuse rights and abilities. We have the RIGHT to own guns. We have the RIGHT (in many cases) to carry the gun with us. That gives the gun bearer the ABILITY to point it to the back of someone's head and TELL them what they can or cannot say.

 

This is NOT a right or a privilege afforded by the Constitution or any law. It is an ABILITY that someone who carries a gun can exercise - illegally, and out of sight of any actual law enforcement, even if the perpetrator is a law enforcement officer.

 

The ABILITY to deny someone the free exercise of their rights does not give you the RIGHT to do so, whether in China or in the US.

 

You have the ABILITY to break most laws that are on the books - you do not have the RIGHT to do so.

[Yuanyang]

...but back to the agreeing part, I know of no one pounding salt in the mines because of their political views. However, having had the barrel of a .38 special put to my head by a cop because of my reporting and many similar forms of heavy handed intimidation based on my work by other cops and government agencies, it is impossible for me to believe that it NEVER HAPPENS in the USA. I'll buy that it VERY RARELY HAPPENS, but not NEVER.

 

 

We seem to easily confuse rights and abilities. We have the RIGHT to own guns. We have the RIGHT (in many cases) to carry the gun with us. That gives the gun bearer the ABILITY to point it to the back of someone's head and TELL them what they can or cannot say.

 

This is NOT a right or a privilege afforded by the Constitution or any law. It is an ABILITY that someone who carries a gun can exercise - illegally, and out of sight of any actual law enforcement, even if the perpetrator is a law enforcement officer.

 

The ABILITY to deny someone the free exercise of their rights does not give you the RIGHT to do so, whether in China or in the US.

 

You have the ABILITY to break most laws that are on the books - you do not have the RIGHT to do so.

 

I agree.

 

Griz, did you file charges against the policeman that put his gun to your head?