What human rights abuses?

[danb]

Not sure where I want to begin or even if I really sure if I should even start but what the heck. My head is still "reeling" from that smack that I got earlier.

 

First I would like to say that China is and should probably be her master/mistress. She can listen to our comments but ultimately she is the one who should decided her fate. In the not so far past she has been repeately and shamefully abused by outsiders. It can not be an easy task to bring 1 billion + people into the 21 century and securing her place in the world. They have accomplished much in the last 50 to 60 years. And perhaps they have much more to accomplish in the next 50 or 60 years.

 

That all being said I have a few "comments." I believe Indonesia has more Muslims than China. I also believe that are at least several countries that have most Christians than China. Also some of the churches in China are I believe state sponsored churches. I think they even have a state chosen next Dali Lama.

 

This post started about the Chinese Nobel peace prize winner. Where is he? And why is he there? Does he even know that he has won it? And if he doesn't why is that?

 

I like China a lot. I am feel relatively safe there. The Chinese are great people. I don't normally feels like I am being constantly monitored. Except perhaps in T. Square. There are an array of security camera there. And I constantly sensed the security personels in the area. Am I the only one who felt this way? Anywhere else in China I am still trying to figure out what the police look like. I know the color of their cars. White and Blue. And one of the characters on the car looks like a triangle ( opened slightly on one side). I see their car but rarely seem them.

 

As far as the freedom of movement. Yes, I have heard that there a great number of people moving around and traveling during the big holidays such as the one that just ended and the Chinese New Year. But when the holiday is ended most must return home. Home to where their Hukou is tied to. The rural folk can travel to the cities but do they receive all the benefits that the city dwellers do? Benefits such as good housing, schooling for their children, medical, etc?

 

Well I have probably said too much already. Thanks for reading.

 

Danb

 

PS, normally during conversations with critics of China I will defend her. This time I am sitting on the other side of the fence. I guess I just wanted to point out that there are two sides to these stories.

 

As far as the conditions in the USA. I will have to give that some thought.

Edited October 10, 2010 by danb (see edit history)

[tsap seui]

This past March, on the entry into my wife's hometown from the Shenyang airport late one night, I saw a large cross highlighted in neon lights with a nice sized church standing by it. I pointed it out to lil' rabbit and said the word God. She smiled and shook her head yes.

 

We didn't go to it, but she is the one who brought up the word "God to me years ago when she said, "God long ago prepared you and I to meet one day".

 

Wonder where she came up with that concept? I had never mentioned religion or God to her before she said that.

 

tsap seui

[griz326]

. . . Unlike America though Chinese are not free to express their disagreement with the Government.

 

 

Not true; everyone everywhere is always free to express themselves. The issue is the price attached to that freedom. I had a cop let himself into my newsroom at 3am and put a 38 special to the back of my head. He said, "Boy, the Chief don't want you writin' any more stories like that." I left town within the week because I wasn't willing to pay the price for my freedom of speech. The cops ran me out of the next town I worked in with the same sort of threat. Only when I got a job with a major news organization did the overt heat cool down, but there was still plenty of malicious bureaucratic action involving my work.

 

An outspoken Chinese person would most certainly find themselves in a heap of trouble if they attracted attention. For as long and as vocal as Liu Xiaobo has been I would have expected harsher treatment for him...like what we know the Chinese government is capable of...

 

I have yet to see one picket line in China or anyone protesting any government policy in a public place.

 

 

I have seen a protest while in Beijing. The cops watched closely, but did nothing. Unfortunately, I haven't a clue what they were protesting, but they weren't happy about something.

 

People are only as free as they dare to be. In 1978, a Chinese man walked the streets of Shanghai with me until 3am talking politics. The motorcycles with machinegun armed cops rode by from time to time, but he did not supress his political interests or opinions; he was discreet and tempered in his discussion.

 

China does not appear to restrict the movement of their people, except as it has to do with where a person lives and works (and the cost of going from point A to point B ). The reasons for Hukou had as much to do with the management of vital resources as it did with taxation and control. Is it outmoded and a terrible limitation on Chinese people? No question about that, yes. But like so many of these issues, reality is pressuring change that will hopefully be for the better. We don't have overt restrictions on our freedom to move to a new city to live, however, there are all sorts of little nuisance things to block a person from moving to a new town if they don't arrive with a job in hand. People know about the discrimination faced by blacks in trying to find a place to live, but there are still discriminatory practices used to deter settlement by "outsiders" all over America.

 

Religious freedom is the same as freedom of speech; you cannot be stopped from worshiping as you please if you are willing to pay the price. I've been in a number of churches in China, I'm not a religious guy, but even at that they seemed pretty squirrely. ...religious freedom isn't free in the USA either; remember the church bombings? Remember the Klan... I attended a klan gathering with the grand dragon in Georgia and some of those boys in sheets were cops, judges and representatives; I wasn't about to use my freedom of speech to pull those sheets off of their heads. They made it pretty tough on certain churches. Is that government sponsored restriction of rights?

 

 

China has advanced further in every way during the last 30 years than any nation in history. The country still has a long way to go, but for my money, I'd bet efforts to disparage China are fueled more by political & economic self-interest and reputation sabotage that concern for human rights abuses.

[chilton747]

Sounds kind of like a play on words griz? You and Carl are essentially saying the same thing.

[tsap seui]

I once saw a huge protest in my wife's city. Folks took chairs all the way across a main street and sat there, meanwhile speakers were using a bullhorn to address the crowd. The people were pissed...about something unknown to me.

 

Our taxi driver had to just turn around and take us another route.

 

Funny, I didn't see any cops or guys in black suits kicking heads in....maybe they waited until I got around the corner to beat the protesters into early graves.....maybe.

 

tsap seui

[chilton747]

I once saw a huge protest in my wife's city. Folks took chairs all the way across a main street and sat there, meanwhile speakers were using a bullhorn to address the crowd. The people were pissed...about something unknown to me.

 

Our taxi driver had to just turn around and take us another route.

 

Funny, I didn't see any cops or guys in black suits kicking heads in....maybe they waited until I got around the corner to beat the protesters into early graves.....maybe.

 

tsap seui

 

 

Same thing happened in my wife's hometown. A bunch of older people had the roads and train tracks blocked and kept them that way for approx 2 days and nights.....yes they had a sleep out.

 

They were protesting the government's late payments to the people's retirement accounts. Photographers were there and the whole works. The people won out as the government issued their checks in a hurry. I did not see this but my wife told me the play by play as she was in China at the time.

[knloregon]

I attend a Chinese church in Portland, which, on a regular basis, has speakers preaching the word of God in China. Some in sanctioned churches, some in home churches. Sanctioned churches don't need to have pre-approval of their sermon, and there are no restrictions to assembly, in homes or at any place in public (they often meet at Starbucks). Home churches are a different story, and it varies by location, but over all, there is much more tolerance for them as well.

[david_dawei]

It seems to me that freedom of speech and religion issues in china are part of the same issue but it's not really speech or religion itself which is the issue; it's large scale assembly which 5000 years of chinese history has learned leads to social troubles. The easiest example is the rise and fall of Qigong in china. That had nothing to do with speech and religion but it was because of the large scale 'following' that resulted.

 

China has some of the longest standing religions, although their philosophical framework is closer to a religion. But folk religions (dao) and buddhism have many temples around the country which reflect their native religious tolerance. Maybe if the west had not show themselves idiots at the time in the past the church was allowed in china (and was at court!), we essentially had ourselves exiled from china due OUR lack of religious tolerance. The catholic church would not allow someone to call themselves a christian and even pay respects to Confucius.

 

Ok, so someone is going to say, that was then and this is now... what is failed [again] to see is that china has a concept of truth which takes history seriously. They don't want certain aspects of history to repeat itself. Give china another 1000 years and then see where they are, since paramount to china will be their self-preservation, not to please western ideology.

 

As we read here, worship may vary by area. I don't think that is a central government problem as much as a local government issue. But we are back to; how to manage 1-5 billion for self-preservation based on lessons learned from history. To me, that is fundamentally china's way. One could compare how our small country of the mighty US of 300 million (20% of china) cannot even enforce immigration laws covering what we think are 12 million illegals (0.8% of china's population or 4% of US).

 

You can get in easy trouble in the US for certain assemblies or protests. Also, mention any joke at an airport with the word 'bomb' and your going to be on the floor. I'm amazed at how easy it is going through airport security in china compared to the fear in the US.

[griz326]

Sounds kind of like a play on words griz? You and Carl are essentially saying the same thing.

 

 

 

Really? How so?

 

Carl suggests the Chinese have no freedom of speech and implies it exists in the USA.

 

The founders of the USA immortalized the value of free speech in the Constitution, but speech is no freer here than anywhere else in the world if you're making high risk statements. If you verbally spit in a powerful figures eye, there will be a price to pay for your freedom of speech.

 

What most USCs believe the 1st amendment means is you can say anything you want and the law protects you. I've met countless "journalists" who believe that, which makes my head do a Linda Blair.

 

 

BTW - Great post DavidD

Edited October 11, 2010 by griz326 (see edit history)

[amberjack1234]

Sounds kind of like a play on words griz? You and Carl are essentially saying the same thing.

 

 

 

Really? How so?

 

Carl suggests the Chinese have no freedom of speech and implies it exists in the USA.

 

The founders of the USA immortalized the value of free speech in the Constitution, but speech is no freer here than anywhere else in the world if you're making high risk statements. If you verbally spit in a powerful figures eye, there will be a price to pay for your freedom of speech.

 

What most USCs believe the 1st amendment means is you can say anything you want and the law protects you. I've met countless "journalists" who believe that, which makes my head do a Linda Blair.

 

 

BTW - Great post DavidD

 

griz the only thing that I can say here is that Carl's wife was a lawyer in China so she should know something about this issue. I am sure that he and she have discussed these things.

 

Not saying that either one is correct.

 

Larry

Edited October 11, 2010 by amberjack1234 (see edit history)

[chilton747]

Sounds kind of like a play on words griz? You and Carl are essentially saying the same thing.

 

 

 

Really? How so?

 

Carl suggests the Chinese have no freedom of speech and implies it exists in the USA.

 

The founders of the USA immortalized the value of free speech in the Constitution, but speech is no freer here than anywhere else in the world if you're making high risk statements. If you verbally spit in a powerful figures eye, there will be a price to pay for your freedom of speech.

 

What most USCs believe the 1st amendment means is you can say anything you want and the law protects you. I've met countless "journalists" who believe that, which makes my head do a Linda Blair.

 

 

BTW - Great post DavidD

 

 

Carl says the Chinese are not free to disagree with the government. You say they are free but will suffer consequences. To me this is saying the same thing.

[knloregon]

".....Carl says the Chinese are not free to disagree with the government. You say they are free but will suffer consequences. To me this is saying the same thing. ..."

 

But in the US, the first amendment doesn't protect you from the consequences of your Damn Fool speech---and expression----you suffer the consequences in the US as well (sometimes in court, in slander suits brought against you for what you said, or libel for what you wrote). You may very well become a pariah ---- and well deserved. The central difference is that your speech and expression has a measure of protection from persecution by the government in the US which is unavailable in China.

[Yuanyang]

I agree with Griz and others that China has made incredible progress with individual freedoms. And while they have a ways more to go we all should know that China will progress and THEIR pace and no one elses.

[Jeikun]

I agree with Griz and others that China has made incredible progress with individual freedoms. And while they have a ways more to go we all should know that China will progress and THEIR pace and no one elses.

 

 

I agree that they have made incredible progress. I do not agree with the concept put forward that no progress is necessary because nothing wrong happens anyway, and it's just that my concept of "wrong" is based on a different set of cultural norms or some other steaming portion of horse stuff that is routinely served for consumption here. The arrogance shown in some of the posts here is jaw-dropping. But after 6 years on this site I should be used to it I suppose. I can still be shocked from time to time I guess.

[Reddragon75]

Hey all, speaking on the issue of human rights in China....... During my research for my Persuasion Theory class, I happened to find this Journal article written by UCLA Law professor Randall Peerenboom: "Assessing Human Rights in China: Why the Double Standard?" It is very interesting and makes you think.

 

Here is the link for the PDF version of it: "Assessing Human Rights in China: Why the Double Standard?"

Edited October 13, 2010 by Reddragon75 (see edit history)