What human rights abuses?

[griz326]

My first trip to China was in '78 and then 5 or 6 subsequent trips. Most of my traveling about has been on the ground by bus. I've been in Amoy, Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Nanning, Guilin, Guiyang, Kaili, Chengdu and dozens of nameless-in-my-memory villages.

 

Never once have I seen a "human rights violation" in China. I've seen difficult living and tough law enforcement; and I know that OSHA would have a field day in many Chinese factories...but I have never seen the sort of human rights abuses I witnessed in Mexico, the Philippines or even here in the USA.

 

There was, of course, Tiananmen Square...but then there was Ohio State and other protester killings (28 kids killed in protests that year).

 

Without making this overtly political, what are the "human rights" violations in China...or is the Chinese cultural approach to life and living the cause of misunderstanding.

 

I certainly understanding that American style freedoms are incompatible with Chinese style life, but I consider China pretty free for a person who minds their p's and q's.

 

What am I missing?

[Jeikun]

What am I missing?

 

Apparently quite a great deal. Can't say this is the place to educate yourself on it though. It sounds like your mind is already made up and you are simply asking the question rhetorically.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[dnoblett]

The human rights abuse is for the Chinese government locking up a man ( Liu Xiaobo ) for promoting democratic reform in a Totalitarian Communist Country. The right to Free-Speech being stifled.

 

Here is the complete text of Mr. Liu¡¯s statement, dated Dec. 23, 2009:

 

June 1989 was the major turning point in my 50 years on life¡¯s road. Before that, I was a member of the first group of students after restoration of the college entrance examination after the Cultural Revolution (1977); my career was s smooth ride from undergraduate to grad student through to Ph.D.

 

After graduation I stayed on as a lecturer at Beijing Normal University. On the podium, I was a popular teacher, well received by students. I was at the same time a public intellectual. In the 1980s I published articles and books that created an impact, was frequently invited to speak in various places, and was invited to go abroad to Europe and the U.S. as a visiting scholar. What I required of myself was: both as a person and in my writing, I had to live with honesty, responsibility and dignity.

 

Subsequently, because I had returned from the U.S. to take part in the 1989 movement, I was imprisoned for ¡°counter-revolutionary propaganda and incitement to crime,¡± losing the platform which was my passion; I was never again allowed publish or speak in public in China. Simply for expressing divergent political views and taking part in a peaceful and democratic movement, a teacher loses his podium, a writer loses the right to publish, and a public intellectual loses the chance to speak publicly, which is a sad thing, both for myself as an individual, and for China after three decades of reform and opening up.

 

Thinking about it, my most dramatic experiences after June Fourth have all linked with courts; the two opportunities I had to speak in public have been provided by trials held in the People¡¯s Intermediate Court in Beijing, one in January 1991 and one now. Although the charges on each occasion were different, they were in essence the same, both being crimes of expression.

 

MORE: http://thelede.blogs...ner=rss&emc=rss

 

 

 

 

Speak of democratic reform in China and get locked away if caught.

 

PREAMBLE

 

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

 

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

 

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

 

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

 

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

 

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

 

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

 

 

Article 19.

 

• Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

 

^ Top

 

 

 

Article 20.

 

• (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
• (2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

http://www.un.org/en...dhr/index.shtml

 

[george lee]

i would sit and read the link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China and have a cup of coffee as well.

 

the list is long but very interesting reading and gives a good summary of the chinese government.

 

 

[dnoblett]

i would sit and read the link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China and have a cup of coffee as well.

 

the list is long but very interesting reading and gives a good summary of the chinese government.

 

 

 

The " ' " in People's Republic in link breaks the link. So here: http://tinyurl.com/yvfff3

[griz326]

The human rights abuse is for the Chinese government locking up a man ( Liu Xiaobo ) for promoting democratic reform in a Totalitarian Communist Country. The right to Free-Speech being stifled.

 

 

Thanks for the UN's link to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I had never read it until this morning and found the document abhorrent. It is exactly what it claims not to be.

 

I am reading the Wiki write-up now, George.

Edited October 8, 2010 by griz326 (see edit history)

[Randy W]

i would sit and read the link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China and have a cup of coffee as well.

 

the list is long but very interesting reading and gives a good summary of the chinese government.

 

 

 

The " ' " in People's Republic in link breaks the link. So here: http://tinyurl.com/yvfff3

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China

 

 

works as well

[dnoblett]

The human rights abuse is for the Chinese government locking up a man ( Liu Xiaobo ) for promoting democratic reform in a Totalitarian Communist Country. The right to Free-Speech being stifled.

 

 

Thanks for the UN's link to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I had never read it until this morning and found the document abhorrent. It is exactly what it claims not to be.

 

I am reading the Wiki write-up now, George.

 

The document is abhorrent, or the fact that China tends to disregard these basic rights?

 

The great firewall of China flies in the face of article 19. Receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. I would say the internet is a "Media" that people receive information and ideas over.

[griz326]

The document is abhorrent, or the fact that China tends to disregard these basic rights?

 

The great firewall of China flies in the face of article 19. Receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. I would say the internet is a "Media" that people receive information and ideas over.

 

 

No, the UN's document is abhorrent to me.

 

I consider China's great firewall unfortunate but it is child's play to subvert it. Based on what I see in our country, we might be well served by a more liberal version of the great firewall.

 

As a working journalist for most of my life and a former newspaper publisher, the right of free speech is terribly misunderstood. People everywhere are free to say whatever they want and they always have been. However, with every right comes a responsibility: you are free to slander someone, but you may be sued; you may point out that Fred beats the crap out of his wife & kids, but Fred may come and beat the crap out of you too (although cowards rarely have that sort of courage); you can speak out against the cops or politicians, but you may find a 38 special with the hammer cocked at the back of your head or be confronted with the ugly face of an angry bureaucracy bent on retribution. I know those things to be true from personal experience and historically, some news people have paid the ultimate price to speak freely.

 

The evolution of China from '78 until now demonstrates China is freeing her people from the oppression of the emperor, it's just moving at a Chinese pace (which is controlled light speed) rather than at a chaotic rate.

 

Work has drawn me away from the Wiki article that I intend to read during lunch.

Edited October 8, 2010 by griz326 (see edit history)

[credzba]

I tend to agree with Griz.

 

I know that the theory says you have/don't have some right in USA vs. China vs. some other country, but in my day to day life, I find the US government much more intrusive in my life than the Chinese government was when i lived there.

 

In both countries I am a law abiding resident that does my best to live my own life, and have as little interaction with the government as possible.

 

In the USA, everything I do and say is watched on the internet. Certainly I can post anything I want, but there is certainly the conscious thought on my mind that the US government is watching, and I need to be careful what I say.

 

The law enforcement can put devices on my car if I leave it in the driveway, because it is "in public".

They can look in my windows if the shades are drawn, because I don't have any expectation of privacy if I leave the curtains open.

Law enforcement can/does write tickets for anything they want, and it is my responsibility to prove my innocence.

 

I am certain in China these and more laws are enforceable against me, but they never are.

Perhaps because I am a lao wei I don't feel the oppression, or maybe, just maybe the oppression isn't there. Perhaps it is difficult to oppress 1.3 billion people, and America just has an easier time with fewer people?

 

 

At any rate, I feel as free, or more free in China, but that is just my feeling, certainly not any theory or legal basis for me to make that claim.

[Yuanyang]

FROM China snubs courageous Nobel Peace Prize which is an educational read. I find his statement below somewhat true too.

 

Perhaps Liu's most poignant critique is directed at the Chinese people themselves. He admonishes them for what he sees as their indifference to -- and even complicity in -- their own oppression. In "Can It Be that the Chinese people Deserve Only 'Party-Led Democracy?" he wrote in 2006, "Man is born free and equal. Universal enslavement and inequality are never caused by the ruler's excessive power or wisdom, but because those who are ruled kneel down."

Edited October 8, 2010 by Yuanyang (see edit history)

[Turbo SS1414]

Be careful what you wish for or you might just get it

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101008/ap_on_re_us/nobel_peace_prize

[david_dawei]

I got to side with Griz and Credzba... this has been long debated here and will for a long time more. Every country has it own way of controlling the masses. I would bet money that by the time the US is at 1.5 billion we are the most advanced police-state in the world. We are on a forced march of more laws than can fill books. And it will always be said to be for 'national security' or 'your safety'. Those words are so abused it's becoming social brainwashing. Maybe if we didn't create so many enemies around the world, we would see what 'peace' at home means too.

 

The internet example is a bit silly. The easiest thing about the internet in china is that you can get any amount of porn, pictures, music, software, or movies absolutely free; The next easiest thing is getting around the great fire wall of china. In both cases, it only takes knowing how and both are free.

 

Instead of asking questions like: why do they restrict the internet, I would ask: Why does the populous have no problem with the unrestricted access to things the US would never permit?

 

Compare driving too. The US follows a very strictly enforced approach whereas china has this chaos theory approach. Who is more free to drive from point A to B as they see fit? I hate to ask which approach is more 'natural' since that is something the west cannot really comprehend.

 

Who wants to be emperor for a day over 1.5 billion? I think we would find it an impossible task. The only reason it has survived is because it at a chinese pace; a chinese way. And like in every country around the world, there are some things you cannot do and probably should not do. To knowingly do something which any government has shown repeatedly it does not accept is more like stupidity. If you want to be a martyr for some cause, that is your choice. At least some will choose that instead of just arguing over it on the internet.

[dnoblett]

Already a thread started on that topic.

 

http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42357

[Turbo SS1414]

Already a thread started on that topic.

 

http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42357

 

 

 

ugh I fail