US Angers China...

[rogerluli]

A difficult time in US-China realtions is building...

 

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo2...+All+Stories%29

[knloregon]

Man, Good link Roger ~ !

 

This is an excellent assessment of how the chess pieces are on the board right now between China and the US ~ !

 

On its face, the selling of additional arms to Taiwan makes no sense at all for US interests. Taiwan and China are at record levels of cooperation on a number of issues but particularly commerce, communication and travel. Last October, Taiwan even opened the door for direct Mainland investment in Taiwan.

 

Selling arms to Taiwan will only embolden the opposition---the Democratic Progressive Party---which in addition to being corrupt, has been a pain in the ass, for both PRC and the US, insisting on an autonomous Taiwan.

 

The only rationale I can think is --- yes, partly the jobs related to arms sales, but that shouldn't be enough to tip this diplomatically---

 

---must be a more nuanced play in statecraft, and I'm guessing it has something to do with SOS Clinton's increased pressure on China to join the UN in placing meaningful pressure on Iran over its Nuclear ambitions: "Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned China on Friday it risks diplomatic isolation and disruption to its energy supplies unless it helps keep Iran from developing nuclear weapons."

[Mick]

If your Chinese SO questions you about this sale one of the thing you might want to ask her/him is:

 

Why is China selling arms to Pakistan which provides training to terrorists that target us?

 

Yeah Sam, I'll get right on the phone and ask her that.

 

This whole thing is one never ending circle which I stepped outside of a f'ing long time ago. Politics is something she and I laugh at, and what I posted above was the most indepth (5 minutes worth)

that we have ever gotten...and if I can help it, EVER WILL.

 

I have strategically withdrawn many moons ago.

 

tsap seui

Sure don't blame you for pulling out of politics, tsap. I pretty much did the same thing after also being victim of American foreign policy. I vividly recall being in base camp near Pleiku, packing up my medicine bag for a pleasure packed foray into the nearby jungle. On the loud speaker came a live speech being broadcast on Armed Forces Radio. It was early '69 and Nixon had recently taken office. He was saying something to the effect:

 

"Let me make this perfectly clear. Our troops are not engaged, have never been engaged, and never will be engaged in military operations in Cambodia."

 

As he was speaking, the jets were going overhead, on their way to Cambodia, which was 10 miles away. Meanwhile, I continued my packing and we left shortly thereafter. You'll never guess where we were headed.....

 

I pretty much soured on politicians that day....

[tsap seui]

If your Chinese SO questions you about this sale one of the thing you might want to ask her/him is:

 

Why is China selling arms to Pakistan which provides training to terrorists that target us?

 

Yeah Sam, I'll get right on the phone and ask her that.

 

This whole thing is one never ending circle which I stepped outside of a f'ing long time ago. Politics is something she and I laugh at, and what I posted above was the most indepth (5 minutes worth)

that we have ever gotten...and if I can help it, EVER WILL.

 

I have strategically withdrawn many moons ago.

 

tsap seui

Sure don't blame you for pulling out of politics, tsap. I pretty much did the same thing after also being victim of American foreign policy. I vividly recall being in base camp near Pleiku, packing up my medicine bag for a pleasure packed foray into the nearby jungle. On the loud speaker came a live speech being broadcast on Armed Forces Radio. It was early '69 and Nixon had recently taken office. He was saying something to the effect:

 

"Let me make this perfectly clear. Our troops are not engaged, have never been engaged, and never will be engaged in military operations in Cambodia."

 

As he was speaking, the jets were going overhead, on their way to Cambodia, which was 10 miles away. Meanwhile, I continued my packing and we left shortly thereafter. You'll never guess where we were headed.....

 

I pretty much soured on politicians that day....

 

I hear ya Mick. When we went into the NVA's lair at one of the many terminous's of the Ho Chi Minh trail in an area on the Cambodian border called the Parrot's Beak, they had chaplains, flight surgeons, and field grade officers come in and tell the assembled flight crews what we were in for and then some General Disastor told us if we died in Cambodia that it would be denied by the military, meaning we would be MIA's, as "WE AREN'T IN CAMBODIA." For the next couple of months we flew into Cambodia everyday. I got shot down three times in..."where I wasn't".

 

Our leaders are not one iota better than the leaders of any country.

 

Why we play dumbassed games with the Chinese of all people is WAY beyond me. So they might build a military base in Pakistan....who the Fu%K could blame them?

 

I thought American policy was best when run by the carrot and stick method, we seem to be bent on trying to persuade the Chinese by the "garrote and stick" method.

 

It ain't gonna work with them, and what sane person ever thought it would?

 

Mick, you and I and a few others have seen the underbelly of America...it ain't pretty and it sickened me beyond all rational emotion, never to trust again. We have seen what they are capable of, and what they WILL do. Not a damned thing has changed, only larger egos in the civilian and military leadership. The civilian leaders get temporrary bragging rights and the generals get to pin on a few more merit badges and gain another star...all while the boys and girls die for them both.

 

As usual, we would be much better off, and better liked by staying home and minding our own business...oh yeah...what's actually left of it.

 

 

tsap seui

 

Yes, I am an ANGRY veteran. A veteran of the madness

Edited January 30, 2010 by tsap seui (see edit history)

[ShaQuaNew]

Soooooo..........my question is.......if China wanted Taiwan, what's been taking so long?

 

The relationship between Taiwan and China is very sensitive to the people of those two nations. I travel and work with our offices in Taiwan often, so get a smattering of the views between both nations. Taiwan people fancy themselves as being more Westernized than most of China, and they are.

 

I don't believe this topic can be debated on this site, or any site really. Let's just say, that there is both a strong and pervasive view amongst nearly all Chinese, that the US should keep their nose out of it. This arms sale is viewed by the Chinese people as extremely provocative. It's nothing new for China and the US to have differences of opinion about the status of Taiwan since post WWII, the US also doesn't hold the same status on the world stage.

 

In my opinion, and it's just mine, the US would do a lot better to back off from the provocative arms sales and strong support of Taiwan, and even rewrite the treaty stating the US would defend to the end thing. Taiwan is so closely tied to China, and apart from business has little to no relationship with the US other than the outdated treaty.

[Guest Tony n Terrific]

Taiwan is unique. It was at one time called Formosa. The Dutch settled the island in the 17th century. Japan took over Taiwan in 1895. Basically Taiwan is wondering generality. It is like Abott and Costellos whose on 1st story.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Tony n Terrific (see edit history)

[ShaQuaNew]

 

Selling arms to Taiwan will only embolden the opposition---the Democratic Progressive Party---which in addition to being corrupt, has been a pain in the ass, for both PRC and the US, insisting on an autonomous Taiwan.

 

The only rationale I can think is --- yes, partly the jobs related to arms sales, but that shouldn't be enough to tip this diplomatically---

 

---must be a more nuanced play in statecraft, and I'm guessing it has something to do with SOS Clinton's increased pressure on China to join the UN in placing meaningful pressure on Iran over its Nuclear ambitions: "Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned China on Friday it risks diplomatic isolation and disruption to its energy supplies unless it helps keep Iran from developing nuclear weapons."

 

It's an outdated political issue and perception that the US is the benchmark for everything good, right, and just. Neither the people of Taiwan, nor China believe it to be true.

[Robert S.]

I believe, with no facts to back it up, that all these events that are done out in the open are just for show, and that really the US and China are operating within an agreement between the two countries.

[a2784]

Soooooo..........my question is.......if China wanted Taiwan, what's been taking so long?

 

The relationship between Taiwan and China is very sensitive to the people of those two nations. I travel and work with our offices in Taiwan often, so get a smattering of the views between both nations. Taiwan people fancy themselves as being more Westernized than most of China, and they are.

 

I don't believe this topic can be debated on this site, or any site really. Let's just say, that there is both a strong and pervasive view amongst nearly all Chinese, that the US should keep their nose out of it. This arms sale is viewed by the Chinese people as extremely provocative. It's nothing new for China and the US to have differences of opinion about the status of Taiwan since post WWII, the US also doesn't hold the same status on the world stage.

 

In my opinion, and it's just mine, the US would do a lot better to back off from the provocative arms sales and strong support of Taiwan, and even rewrite the treaty stating the US would defend to the end thing. Taiwan is so closely tied to China, and apart from business has little to no relationship with the US other than the outdated treaty.

So why does Taiwan buy the arms from the US if they are interested in close ties and coming back in the fold of China?

 

I was quite surprised to find that my Chinese coworkers place Taiwanese people just about the Japanense.

[3timescharm]

I believe, with no facts to back it up, that all these events that are done out in the open are just for show, and that really the US and China are operating within an agreement between the two countries.

yea....I think you are along the right lines here. both countries knew of this before the story broke. They both do things that piss the other off........but in the long run they both know that they depend on each other in many ways. They rattle the sabors and then go back to business as usual.

[Robert S.]

The Taiwanese people that I know don't have any Japanese-like hint in their behavior. They are Chinese to the bone. They even have that old time weariness with life and its infinite corruptions kind of an attitude reminiscent of the era of the 1930s.

[Zhou Zhou]

Soooooo..........my question is.......if China wanted Taiwan, what's been taking so long?

 

 

Good question. I am familiar with Fujian where many have ties with Taiwanese. There you see family interaction, and many Taiwanese businesses operating for years in harmony and even more recently. There are direct flights, direct mail and shipping from the mainland...things are peaceful and have been for many years. Leave them alone and sell the killing machines somewhere else. And like someone said, if the PRC wants Taiwan, they won't be stopped by Patriots, Apaches or Destroyers.

 

This US administration is continuing the arms race that the last one began.

[Sam and Fen]

Washington Post did a piece on this story today and how China is becoming more assertive.

 

Washinton Post

[Stepbrow]

Soooooo..........my question is.......if China wanted Taiwan, what's been taking so long?

 

 

A few things have prevented China from taking Taiwan.

First is the Taiwan Relations Act of 1976 which states: "This act also requires the United States "to provide Taiwan with arms of a defensive character", and "to maintain the capacity of the United States to resist any resort to force or other forms of coercion that would jeopardize the security, or the social or economic system, of the people on Taiwan."

 

Second, because of the arms we have sold to Taiwan, Taiwan has a strong deterrent capability. Taiwan's weapons systems and training are first class, China's not so much.

 

Third the US Sixth fleet. That's where it says above that the US will "maintain the capacity... to resist any resort to force..."

 

We do have a treaty with Taiwan. They fought the Japanese with us in WWII. I don't think that we should be so quick to abandon our long time ally any more than we should abandon Israel because the Arabs don't like it.

[ShaQuaNew]

 

Second, because of the arms we have sold to Taiwan, Taiwan has a strong deterrent capability. Taiwan's weapons systems and training are first class, China's not so much.

 

China is not interested in taking over Taiwan using military means. However, if the US continues to be provocative and attempt to undermine the growing relationship between China and Taiwan, you can be sure that China would roll over the small island before anyone could say "boo."

 

Make no mistake, while the US has the strongest technical military in the world, China is right there with them. The US should be seeking an alliance with China rather than using tough talk like a bully on the playground.

Edited January 31, 2010 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)