Obama in China.

[b.c]

We are Americans we do not bow to anyone! Good foreign policy comes from strength. Not from a courtsey. What makes me so upset since the Cold War has ended is that we Americans have let our Great Nation nation slip into mediocritcy.

 

Imo, this is the type of better than thou attitude that has helped lead us into mediocrity. I think we have entered into a new era that calls for understanding, respect, and dialogue more so than force and strength. Yes, we should carry a big stick and be prepared to use it but there is also such a tool as diplomacy which I feel we have collectively gotten away from over the years.

 

Kudos to Obama for having the courage to do this, knowing that he would face a lot of criticism for such an action.

[knloregon]

"..Kudos to Obama for having the courage to do this, knowing that he would face a lot of criticism for such an action..."

 

But Brian, during the Japanese occupation of China, those Chinese who refused to bow to their oppressors were beheaded.

 

Many in China now see Obama bowing to the Emperor, and are disgusted by it.

 

Do you think its worth it? He would never bow to the king or queen of England (by long established diplomatic protocol) --- Why this exception for the Emperor of Japan?

[warpedbored]

From Wikipedia on bowing in Japan.

 

Bowing

 

Main article: Bowing (social)

Bowing (o)jigi (¤ª´Çƒx, ¤ª¤¸¤®), (o-)rei (¤ªÀñ), is probably the feature of Japanese etiquette that is best-known outside Japan. Bowing is considered extremely important in Japan, so much so that, although children normally begin learning how to bow from a very young age, companies commonly provide training to their employees in how to execute bows correctly.

Basic bows are performed with the back straight and the hands at the sides (boys and men) or clasped in the lap (girls and women), and with the eyes down. Bows originate at the waist. Generally, the longer and deeper the bow, the stronger the emotion and the respect expressed.

Bows can be generally divided into three main types: informal, formal, and very formal. Informal bows are made at about a fifteen degree angle¡¡or just tilt over one's head to the front, and more formal bows at about thirty degrees. Very formal bows are deeper.

The etiquette surrounding bowing, including the length and depth of bow, and the appropriate response, is exceedingly complex. For example, if the other person maintains his or her bow for longer than expected (generally about two or three seconds), it is polite to bow again, upon which one may receive another bow in return. This often leads to a long exchange of progressively lighter bows.

Generally speaking, an inferior bows longer, more deeply and more frequently than a superior. A superior addressing an inferior will generally only nod the head slightly, while some superiors may not bow at all and an inferior will bend forward slightly from the waist.

Bows of apology tend to be deeper and last longer than other types of bow. They tend to occur with frequency during the apology, generally at about 45 degrees with the head lowered and lasting for at least the count of three, sometimes longer. The depth, frequency and duration of the bow increases with the sincerity of the apology and the severity of the offence. Occasionally, in the case of apology and begging, people crouch down like Sujud to show one's absolute submission or extreme regret. This is called Dogeza. Even though Dogeza was previously considered very formal, it is mostly regarded as a contempt for oneself today, so it is not used in an everyday setting. Bows of thanks follow the same pattern. In extreme cases a kneeling bow is performed; this bow is sometimes so deep that the forehead touches the floor. This is called saikeirei (×î¾´Àñ), literally "most respectful bow."

When dealing with non-Japanese people, many Japanese will shake hands. Since many non-Japanese are familiar with the custom of bowing, this often leads to a combined bow and handshake which can be quite complicated to execute. Bows may be combined with handshakes or performed before or after shaking hands. Generally when bowing in close proximity, as necessitated when combining bowing and shaking hands, people turn slightly to one side (usually the left) to avoid bumping heads.

[knloregon]

and for the record----he hasn't bowed to any of the officials he has met so far in China---- Yu Zhengsheng---Shanghai Party Chief, Vice President Xi Jinping ....

[knloregon]

"....Generally speaking, an inferior bows longer, more deeply and more frequently than a superior. A superior addressing an inferior will generally only nod the head slightly, while some superiors may not bow at all and an inferior will bend forward slightly from the waist....'

 

The Emperor of Japan made only a slight bow to President Obama...

[Guest Tony n Terrific]

We are Americans we do not bow to anyone! Good foreign policy comes from strength. Not from a courtsey. What makes me so upset since the Cold War has ended is that we Americans have let our Great Nation nation slip into mediocritcy.

 

Imo, this is the type of better than thou attitude that has helped lead us into mediocrity. I think we have entered into a new era that calls for understanding, respect, and dialogue more so than force and strength. Yes, we should carry a big stick and be prepared to use it but there is also such a tool as diplomacy which I feel we have collectively gotten away from over the years.

 

Kudos to Obama for having the courage to do this, knowing that he would face a lot of criticism for such an action.

Mankind is a predator. A predator only respects stregnth.

[warpedbored]

and for the record----he hasn't bowed to any of the officials he has met so far in China---- Yu Zhengsheng---Shanghai Party Chief, Vice President Xi Jinping ....

Chinese used to bow to one another. It fell out of favor after the communist revolution. Since it is no longer the custom in China it wouldn't be appropriate. As far as bowing to the queen of England, bowing in England and bowing in Japan have different meanings. Bowing to the queen of England is a show of loyalty. Bowing to the emperor of Japan only shows respect. I wouldn't be surprised if many Japanese feel he didn't bow long enough.

[b.c]

"..Kudos to Obama for having the courage to do this, knowing that he would face a lot of criticism for such an action..."

 

But Brian, during the Japanese occupation of China, those Chinese who refused to bow to their oppressors were beheaded.

 

Many in China now see Obama bowing to the Emperor, and are disgusted by it.

 

Do you think its worth it? He would never bow to the king or queen of England (by long established diplomatic protocol) --- Why this exception for the Emperor of Japan?

 

Its a new day Kim. I can understand what you are trying to get across, especially from a Chinese perspective. My grandfather served in WW2. I drive a mercedes. 2 of my uncles served in Vietnam. They just recently went on a junket together back to that country and had the time of their lives. Times change. Time heals. So many atrocities happened due to these events. Should progress, gained through a simple display of respect, be another victim?

 

Shall we continue to dwell on the past and avoid attempts to make today and tomorrow better for us and our future generations? Yes, I do think it is worth it, especially considering our recent scorecard on foreign relations the past decade or so. Like it or not, we have a lot of making up to do throughout the international community. And a display like this, imo, can go a long way in sending a positive message that far outweighs any ill feelings that it may cause. And I will be honest, I am sickened by just about everything that has transpired so far in the O administration (sorry Carl ) but I have to commend him on this.

 

Afterall, whats a nobel peace price winner to do?

Edited November 17, 2009 by bcco (see edit history)

[whome?]

Ok I'm getting frustrated again. I'm going to bite my tongue but.... this will not turn into an Obama bashing thread.

 

I agree with you 100% about the fact one should know and respect Japanese culture (as Obama did correctly IMO) or any other culture when you go to visit them.

 

The same is true here in north China regarding toasts when drinking together. The younger person should extend their glass below the older or more senior person during the toast as a sign of respect.

 

However regarding your "this will not turn into an Obama bashing thread" you have to admit you turned it in this direction with your post #5.

[whome?]

"..Kudos to Obama for having the courage to do this, knowing that he would face a lot of criticism for such an action..."

 

But Brian, during the Japanese occupation of China, those Chinese who refused to bow to their oppressors were beheaded.

 

Many in China now see Obama bowing to the Emperor, and are disgusted by it.

 

Do you think its worth it? He would never bow to the king or queen of England (by long established diplomatic protocol) --- Why this exception for the Emperor of Japan?

 

Its a new day Kim. I can understand what you are trying to get across, especially from a Chinese perspective. My grandfather served in WW2. I drive a mercedes. 2 of my uncles served in Vietnam. They just recently went on a junket together back to that country and had the time of their lives. Times change. Time heals. So many atrocities happened due to these events. Should progress, gained through a simple display of respect, be another victim?

 

Shall we continue to dwell on the past and avoid attempts to make today and tomorrow better for us and our future generations? Yes, I do think it is worth it, especially considering our recent scorecard on foreign relations the past decade or so. Like it or not, we have a lot of making up to do throughout the international community. And a display like this, imo, can go a long way in sending a positive message that far outweighs any ill feelings that it may cause. And I will be honest, I am sickened by just about everything that has transpired so far in the O administration (sorry Carl ) but I have to commend him on this.

 

Afterall, whats a nobel peace price winner to do?

Kim I usually agree with you but in this case I think Brian is correct.

 

Besides no one bows in China anymore.

 

Besides Besides ... as much as I love China some of them are much too thin skinned about perceived slights. Others will look for any reason to say a westerner is bad or a western country is bad ... just like some of our own people who try to blame all of our problems on China.

 

Remmber the show-ending episode of Boston Legal where the law firm of Crane, Poole, & Schmidt was sold to a Chinese law firm? During the eposide there were the expected comments selling off to the Chinese because they have a horrible record on human rights, etc. The version we downloaded was translated into Chinese and at the beginning the translator provided a warning to the effect "watch this show at your own risk because many bad lies about China are said and it may make you feel bad". If that is not thin-skinned I do not know what is.

[samsong]

I can't believe all the hype over a simple bow when the media hype should be placed on the American servicemen and women who are risking their lives in two wars and no attention is given to their needs.

As has been pointed out by Gen. McCrystal months ago, troops are needed in Afghanistan if the US is planning on winning this war. A bow pales in comparison in this war on terror the US supposedly is fighting. Priorities are not in line. The wars should be top priority and handled as such. The wars will decide Obama's fate. Not a lowly bow.

[Smitty]

One day I was, as usual, minding my own business, and a black guy accuses me of slavery. Starts yelling at me. I guess all white people are guilty for slavery, and can never be forgiven. Even if they were born well after it happened.

[A Mafan]

One day I was, as usual, minding my own business, and a black guy accuses me of slavery. Starts yelling at me. I guess all white people are guilty for slavery, and can never be forgiven. Even if they were born well after it happened.

Even if their ancestors came to the US after slavery was ended. Even if your ancestors came to the US after slavery was ended. Even if half or more than half of his ancestors were slavers.

 

It's all about identity politics.

 

Some people live to harbor grievances. Thank God we have people of all races who actually seek Martin Luther King, Jr.'s dream: to be judged by character, not color of skin.

[A Mafan]

Normally I wouldnt be so cracked up about all the bows. But I think we have some making up to do with the international community. So given the circumstances, I am for it. Good for him.

 

 

Ah, this reminds me of the chest-thumping bravado of the Bush administration. That worked well didnt it?

 

 

Imo, this is the type of better than thou attitude that has helped lead us into mediocrity. I think we have entered into a new era that calls for understanding, respect, and dialogue more so than force and strength. Yes, we should carry a big stick and be prepared to use it but there is also such a tool as diplomacy which I feel we have collectively gotten away from over the years.

 

Kudos to Obama for having the courage to do this, knowing that he would face a lot of criticism for such an action.

I understand the thought behind it. President Bush was supposedly a rogue cowboy running roughshod over friends and enemies alike, a bull in a China shop who could only attack countries, couldn't used diplomacy.

 

But to be honest, I don't get this opinion at all.

 

Polls may show love for the US declined when President Bush was in office, and increased with the election of President Obama, but polls don't protect our allies or the United States.

 

I can see President Obama is trying to use diplomacy, but what has it gotten us?

 

I can't see a single positive result at all since President Obama took office.

 

We screwed over Poland and the Czech Republic to back out of the missile deal, in order to get Russia's help with Iran. Russia laughed at us.

We haven't gotten Iran to come to the negotiating table for their nukes. Every day brings us closer.

NATO countries won't pony up any troops for Afghanistan.

 

Venesuala just keeps getting worse, trampling on human rights, insulting the US, engaging in economic warfare against us, getting in bed with the Russians for military technology, threatening Columbia for helping us in the drug war. We betrayed Honduras for trying to rid themselves of a Castro-like socialist dictator wannabe who refused to step down from office at the constitutionally-mandated end of his term.

 

We apologized, profusely, for any perception of harm to almost all of our enemies. We did not demand any apologies from anyone else for their betrayals and selfishness.

 

What tangible thanks have we gotten?

 

It really seems like mos of the rest of the world likes us to be weak, indecisive, self-conflicted, and too busy with our own problems to stop them from gaining economically and diplomatically at the US' expense.

 

If I've forgotten some huge diplomatic breakthrough that dwarfs these diplomatic failures, please remind me.

[A Mafan]

The NY Times:

"The degree of control exercised over the most public event of Mr. Obama¡¯s three-day stay in China suggests that Chinese leaders are less willing to make concessions to American demands for the arrangements of a presidential visit than they once were.

 

"The White House spent weeks wrangling with Chinese authorities over who would be allowed to attend the Shanghai town hall meeting, including how much access the media would have and whether it would be broadcast live throughout the country. In the end Mr. Obama had little chance to promote a message to the broader Chinese public.

 

"The event in some respects signaled a retreat from the reception given at least two earlier American presidents, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, both of whom asked for, and were granted, the opportunity to address the Chinese people and answer their questions in a live national broadcast."