A Manifesto on Freedom

[Guest Tony n Terrific]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/world/asia/01beijing.html

[Corbin]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/world/asia/01beijing.html

Interesting story...... The number of people that know about this in China compared to the population is a drop in the bucket more or less. China is going to keep this on the low as much as possible, but it will gain ground over time. The question is, as it gains ground how will they deal with it. In this day and age information can spread like wild fires... yes it will be silenced like most stuff they don't want the Chinese citizens to know about, but it will get out more than in the past. If there is a will there is a way to spread the info....

[warpedbored]

I wonder why Americans always assume that everyone on earth wants a western style democracy. Indeed even the US is not a true democracy. We are a representative republic.

[rogerluli]

I wonder why Americans always assume that everyone on earth wants a western style democracy. Indeed even the US is not a true democracy. We are a representative republic.

 

As was well documented in my original thread on this topic Charter08 is a purely Chinese undertaking...westerners are NOT involved...

[Randy W]

I wonder why Americans always assume that everyone on earth wants a western style democracy. Indeed even the US is not a true democracy. We are a representative republic.

 

 

These are Chinese people talking about freedom

On Dec. 10, Mr. Liu and 302 others issued a manifesto, called Charter 08, that urged China¡¯s Communist Party to abandon monopoly rule and establish a multiparty system of government.

basically to establish a second party

 

Why assume anything?

[rogerluli]

I wonder why Americans always assume that everyone on earth wants a western style democracy. Indeed even the US is not a true democracy. We are a representative republic.

 

 

These are Chinese people talking about freedom

On Dec. 10, Mr. Liu and 302 others issued a manifesto, called Charter 08, that urged China¡¯s Communist Party to abandon monopoly rule and establish a multiparty system of government.

basically to establish a second party

 

Why assume anything?

 

Indeed Randy...Why do some assume that Chinese people have no interest in having the freedom to choose for themselves???

 

Or the freedom to have basic human rights???

[Zhou Zhou]

I think the people of China would be like people here when presented with government sales techniques. How many Usonians opposed the deposing of Mosadec, Bombing of Cambodia, the overthrow of Allende, the illegal Contra army, the invasion of Panama, support of the Salvadorean or Colombian death squads, the 2002 coup attempt on President Chavez, 100 assassination attempts on Castro, or the two invasions of Iraq? About 10% usually investigate to seek the facts and speak out against the government lies...same in the PRC. Most Chinese will happily and "patriotically" support the CCP.

[samsong]

I wonder why Americans always assume that everyone on earth wants a western style democracy. Indeed even the US is not a true democracy. We are a representative republic.

I'm an American and I don't assume a damn thing.

[Jeikun]

Wow, this issue was done to death when it made the rounds a few months ago. If it stands, I fully anticipate the same lines of argument to emerge, followed by the same endless debates that changes no one's minds, the same accusations of cultural insensitivity, and hurt national pride, and the same locking and/or deleting.

 

And here I am saying the same thing I said before also, cause it sounds like fun to me, so let me skip the foreplay and elevate it right away...

 

This manifesto is CHINESE, written BY Chinese FOR Chinese. Yet when a westerner discusses it he/she is "assuming/projecting that Chinese would ever want a western democracy... how dare we!" Why is that?

 

While the desire for a free society and more than one party system may not be desirable by many Chinese, and many more may simply not care, there are also a number who DO, or who at least want something in the same spirit, with a Chinese flavor. Don't think it is a suggestion that the Chinese simply translate the US constitution into Mandarin... it is concerning several basic ideas of a free government that is held accountable to the people and derives it's power from them, and the idea of competing parties so no one holds a monopoly on political thought, and a free press. Basic tenants.

 

This idea can be discussed without looking down on anyone, or assuming that the USA is superior and should be emulated based on that concept alone, and all the other accusations that eventually bleed out from people who can't stand the idea even being broached, and/or think they have the Chinese people "all figured out". I find that to be the more arrogant position by far.

 

I've read CHINESE SCHOLARS arguing about whether Confucianism does or does not gel with democracy, for example. If native experts can find reason to heartily debate the issue, then why should I accept the opinion of an American hobbyist as gold standard?

 

I'm all for debate, even some argument. But I am however, always flabbergasted to read how some people (especially American spouses) push their opinions as fact on this issue, and laugh derisively at the "stupid westerners who can never understand the Chinese" as if they have become the very avatar of the distilled essence of "Chinese" simply by "opening their eyes" and reading a few books and spending a few weeks or years living in China. If ANYONE could so well pigeonhole an entire nation, there would be no war or revolution, would there? lol

[samsong]

This manifesto is CHINESE, written BY Chinese FOR Chinese. Yet when a westerner discusses it he/she is "assuming/projecting that Chinese would ever want a western democracy... how dare we!" Why is that?

You can't assume all westerners think like that because it simply isn't true. It's a misleading assumption and an offensive statement to make. It's a deluded generalization of westerners and as I have already said in a post I made in this thread, "I don't assume a damn thing." Does that make me un-american not to assume? I think not. I, as a westerner, have never thought of, let alone assume, a western democracy for the Chinese. The Chinese can figure out what they want. That's the way it's always been. There's the world- and then the Middle Kingdom; the Chinese.

The Chinese are coming of age after years of past oppression and in time, with favorable consequences, the Chinese will establish themselves as an open nation and a world leader. But it will take time, and it's a slippery slope. Time will tell. I wish the Chinese good fortune in the fate before them but I don't assume their fate at all!

[Guest jin979]

i think a democracy like France Swizland or the UK may be good for China for local politics.china needs to avoid adopting a fedral goverment that can create laws and taxs over the provinces, armies should be provicial too.

Big govt must be accountable to the provincal elected and lawyers not allowed to hold public office.lobbyists banned (imprisoned when found) once elected must not accept any other monies, free trips or gifts of any sort.

special police created to watch elected and enforce fair working of agencies.

what china needs to avoid in a move to democracy is to follow some countries to a system of hidden special power control and out of control fedral aganies.

 

Remember china had this before.

[Jeikun]

This manifesto is CHINESE, written BY Chinese FOR Chinese. Yet when a westerner discusses it he/she is "assuming/projecting that Chinese would ever want a western democracy... how dare we!" Why is that?

You can't assume all westerners think like that because it simply isn't true. It's a misleading assumption and an offensive statement to make. It's a deluded generalization of westerners and as I have already said in a post I made in this thread, "I don't assume a damn thing." Does that make me un-american not to assume? I think not. I, as a westerner, have never thought of, let alone assume, a western democracy for the Chinese. The Chinese can figure out what they want. That's the way it's always been. There's the world- and then the Middle Kingdom; the Chinese.

The Chinese are coming of age after years of past oppression and in time, with favorable consequences, the Chinese will establish themselves as an open nation and a world leader. But it will take time, and it's a slippery slope. Time will tell. I wish the Chinese good fortune in the fate before them but I don't assume their fate at all!

 

samsong... it was sarcasm. My whole rant was about people who say things like that which is why it was in quotes. I thought that was fairly clear.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

 

I'm all for debate, even some argument. But I am however, always flabbergasted to read how some people (especially American spouses) push their opinions as fact on this issue, and laugh derisively at the "stupid westerners who can never understand the Chinese" as if they have become the very avatar of the distilled essence of "Chinese" simply by "opening their eyes" and reading a few books and spending a few weeks or years living in China. If ANYONE could so well pigeonhole an entire nation, there would be no war or revolution, would there? lol

 

Sorta like laughing at them, rather than with them?

 

If cultural awareness and education were a destination, you could get directions.....

[Jeikun]

 

I'm all for debate, even some argument. But I am however, always flabbergasted to read how some people (especially American spouses) push their opinions as fact on this issue, and laugh derisively at the "stupid westerners who can never understand the Chinese" as if they have become the very avatar of the distilled essence of "Chinese" simply by "opening their eyes" and reading a few books and spending a few weeks or years living in China. If ANYONE could so well pigeonhole an entire nation, there would be no war or revolution, would there? lol

 

Sorta like laughing at them, rather than with them?

 

If cultural awareness and education were a destination, you could get directions.....

 

Yes, laugh derisively as in "in a disrespectful and mocking manner". You get an A in today's vocab.

 

I could use some directions from time to time yes, but I'm somewhat picky about who I ask.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[whome?]

Wow, this issue was done to death when it made the rounds a few months ago. If it stands, I fully anticipate the same lines of argument to emerge, followed by the same endless debates that changes no one's minds, the same accusations of cultural insensitivity, and hurt national pride, and the same locking and/or deleting.

 

And here I am saying the same thing I said before also, cause it sounds like fun to me, so let me skip the foreplay and elevate it right away...

 

This manifesto is CHINESE, written BY Chinese FOR Chinese. Yet when a westerner discusses it he/she is "assuming/projecting that Chinese would ever want a western democracy... how dare we!" Why is that?

 

While the desire for a free society and more than one party system may not be desirable by many Chinese, and many more may simply not care, there are also a number who DO, or who at least want something in the same spirit, with a Chinese flavor. Don't think it is a suggestion that the Chinese simply translate the US constitution into Mandarin... it is concerning several basic ideas of a free government that is held accountable to the people and derives it's power from them, and the idea of competing parties so no one holds a monopoly on political thought, and a free press. Basic tenants.

 

This idea can be discussed without looking down on anyone, or assuming that the USA is superior and should be emulated based on that concept alone, and all the other accusations that eventually bleed out from people who can't stand the idea even being broached, and/or think they have the Chinese people "all figured out". I find that to be the more arrogant position by far.

 

I've read CHINESE SCHOLARS arguing about whether Confucianism does or does not gel with democracy, for example. If native experts can find reason to heartily debate the issue, then why should I accept the opinion of an American hobbyist as gold standard?

 

I'm all for debate, even some argument. But I am however, always flabbergasted to read how some people (especially American spouses) push their opinions as fact on this issue, and laugh derisively at the "stupid westerners who can never understand the Chinese" as if they have become the very avatar of the distilled essence of "Chinese" simply by "opening their eyes" and reading a few books and spending a few weeks or years living in China. If ANYONE could so well pigeonhole an entire nation, there would be no war or revolution, would there? lol

 

What I do not get is why post this article? There are groups in the USA comprised on only USA citizens who would like to radically change our system and that the government monitors.

 

Maybe we can post those stories also and wonder why more USA citizens do not support them. The life of an average Chinese person is not so different from that of an average USA person.