"turn toward a system of liberties, democracy, and rule of law...

[Dan R]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.

 

How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.

 

Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.

 

Rose was never my color.

 

So when was this first Asian Democracy?

[rogerluli]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.

 

How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.

 

Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.

 

Rose was never my color.

 

So when was this first Asian Democracy?

 

India 1948 I believe (done wothout googling... )

[Jeikun]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.

 

How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.

 

Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.

 

Rose was never my color.

 

So when was this first Asian Democracy?

 

 

Roughly 1912-1916 before the first warlord era and the world wars, though technically from 1912-1949 when the Chinese civil war went to the commnists. Troubled yes, but was founded as a republic, and still exists on the island of Taiwan as a republic.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[rogerluli]

According to this Time article on the problems of Asia's democracies the first Asian democracy was Japan...The article talks about most of the regions attempts at democracy and why many are not doing very well...The mess in Thailand being the latest poster child... One big problem seems to be that the rule of law in these fledgling democracies is not what western democracies have... I know some would quibble over our own "equal protection under the law" but lets' face it what is the alternative??? The US did not come apart at the seams over the Gore/Bush election mess...President Clinton was impeached...The Governor of Illinois is facing impeachment...In the Asian democracies things do not work this way...

 

I never really meant this as trying to force democracy down the throats of the Chinese people. As Jason has pointed out Charter08 is an all Chinese endeavor...Everyone in China is NOT happy with the present system...If I was a citizen of China I would certainly be working for a system that gave all the people more freedom and rights, equal protection under the law, and a system of checks and balances to keep corruption down...

 

 

 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...69271-1,00.html

Edited January 10, 2009 by rogerluli (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

Although I think a history lesson by dynasty would reveal alot of 'lessons learned' by the chinese on how to maintain harmony and stability, this thread is more related to exploring whether some form of democracy is possible; but history would show us that China had democratic ideas prior to the definition as used today.

 

Since Confucianism has been the dominant political philosophy for a few thousand years, it's influence and compatibility to democracy should be evaluated. Again, something completely new [Asian style] is much more likely than something regurgitated [from the west].

 

For those really interested, I'll provide a few links...

 

China: Democracy or Confucianism

 

Confucianism for the Modern World

 

On the Compatibility between Confucian Principles and Democracy

 

Confucianism and Democracy

[Guest Tony n Terrific]

China had a democracy from 1911 to 1949. Sun-Yat-Sen founded it and is considered the Father of democracy in China. Chiang took democracy with him to Taiwan which is still practiced there today after he was defeated by Mao.

Taiwan still believes that one day democrcy will return to China and they will be recognized as the true government of China. It has been nearly 60 years since their expulsion but they have never given up this goal.

[rogerluli]

China had a democracy from 1911 to 1949. Sun-Yat-Sen founded it and is considered the Father of democracy in China. Chiang took democracy with him to Taiwan which is still practiced there today after he was defeated by Mao.

Taiwan still believes that one day democrcy will return to China and they will be recognized as the true government of China. It has been nearly 60 years since their expulsion but they have never given up this goal.

 

I think to call what the Nationalists brought to Taiwan in 1949 a democracy is a tremendous stretch...More like MARTIAL LAW...

[Guest Tony n Terrific]

China had a democracy from 1911 to 1949. Sun-Yat-Sen founded it and is considered the Father of democracy in China. Chiang took democracy with him to Taiwan which is still practiced there today after he was defeated by Mao.

Taiwan still believes that one day democrcy will return to China and they will be recognized as the true government of China. It has been nearly 60 years since their expulsion but they have never given up this goal.

 

I think to call what the Nationalists brought to Taiwan in 1949 a democracy is a tremendous stretch...More like MARTIAL LAW...

To get America's foreign aid $ and the 7th fleet$ military mu$cle they called it a Democracy.

[IllinoisDave]

I never really meant this as trying to force democracy down the throats of the Chinese people. As Jason has pointed out Charter08 is an all Chinese endeavor...Everyone in China is NOT happy with the present system...If I was a citizen of China I would certainly be working for a system that gave all the people more freedom and rights, equal protection under the law, and a system of checks and balances to keep corruption down...

What he said.

[Jeikun]

China had a democracy from 1911 to 1949. Sun-Yat-Sen founded it and is considered the Father of democracy in China. Chiang took democracy with him to Taiwan which is still practiced there today after he was defeated by Mao.

Taiwan still believes that one day democrcy will return to China and they will be recognized as the true government of China. It has been nearly 60 years since their expulsion but they have never given up this goal.

 

I think to call what the Nationalists brought to Taiwan in 1949 a democracy is a tremendous stretch...More like MARTIAL LAW...

 

 

Most definately. But the original government as founded in 1911-12 was a democracy, and later returned to a democracy. As for myself, I definately don't mean to build up or compliment the kuomingtang, or Taiwan. Just to point out that when the Republic of China was founded on the mainland in 1912, it was Asia's first democracy. It quickly gave in to corruption and infighting, and 2 world wars and full scale civil war pretty much destroyed it... my point was just that it was established by Chinese, not crammed down their throat by the US. It was an attempt at least, and for a small time had a good deal of popular support.

[Dan R]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.

 

How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.

 

Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.

 

Rose was never my color.

 

So when was this first Asian Democracy?

 

 

Roughly 1912-1916 before the first warlord era and the world wars, though technically from 1912-1949 when the Chinese civil war went to the commnists. Troubled yes, but was founded as a republic, and still exists on the island of Taiwan as a republic.

 

That is highly questionable. It may have declared itself a Republic but it was not a Democracy until recently on the Island of Taiwan. It was an Autocracy, hardly Democratic.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

It's interesting just how many Westerners actually believe that the Chinese government is milling about snatching people off the street after they fail to follow governmental directions.

 

Truth is, it's just not happening. The people of China in my view, are quite verbal about the things they like in their country and what they don't like, and laugh at the thought of someone suggesting that they will be arrested or otherwise be reprimanded for speaking out.

 

If you contrast China with the West when it comes to civil disobedience, then there are indeed differences. The US allows people to publicly demonstrate, block roads, shout at others with opposing viewpoints, and otherwise impede the normal flow of day to day life. The US was founded upon some of this, but in my view, it's been allowed to continue to an extreme, and has destroyed the very fabric of what America once represented. Unity no longer exists in the US, as there are strong differences between philosophical, and idealogical beliefs.

 

China on the other hand contains a patriotic people, who are becoming increasingly educated at advanced levels. They are no longer a people that shut up and follow directions as they were during the cultural revolution, but are a society of independent thinkers, with a very strong moral and family ethic.

[GZBILL]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

It's interesting just how many Westerners actually believe that the Chinese government is milling about snatching people off the street after they fail to follow governmental directions.

 

Truth is, it's just not happening. The people of China in my view, are quite verbal about the things they like in their country and what they don't like, and laugh at the thought of someone suggesting that they will be arrested or otherwise be reprimanded for speaking out.

 

If you contrast China with the West when it comes to civil disobedience, then there are indeed differences. The US allows people to publicly demonstrate, block roads, shout at others with opposing viewpoints, and otherwise impede the normal flow of day to day life. The US was founded upon some of this, but in my view, it's been allowed to continue to an extreme, and has destroyed the very fabric of what America once represented. Unity no longer exists in the US, as there are strong differences between philosophical, and idealogical beliefs.

 

China on the other hand contains a patriotic people, who are becoming increasingly educated at advanced levels. They are no longer a people that shut up and follow directions as they were during the cultural revolution, but are a society of independent thinkers, with a very strong moral and family ethic.

 

True.

 

I might add that a previous poster made a comment along the lines of "everybody" in China being unhappy with their government. This statement alone is not only untrue, but probably a qualifier to the lobotomy previously offered.

[Jeikun]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

It's interesting just how many Westerners actually believe that the Chinese government is milling about snatching people off the street after they fail to follow governmental directions.

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting yes, but not my belief per say, nor my intended point. Perhaps I didn't express myself well.

 

My point is for the "average Joe" who follows laws and directions, goes to work comes home, etc etc and who doesn't find themself through unfortunate circumstance with their interests coming at odds with those of the government, one would notice very little difference in the "freedoms" of their daily lives in the USA or in China.

 

However when this isn't the case, the differences will be revealed. In other words for a typical person under normal circumstances life isn't much different.

 

I would contrast that with say, North Korea for example, where infringement of rights, brainwashing, and a dismal quality of life is a daily reality, and is reinforced by a totalitarian regime and propaganda of the boldest and most intense sort.

 

No, people in China aren't in danger of being kidnapped by the police for making an offhand comment, or that sort of thing. But an old Chinese lady trying to sell canned drinks out of a cooler where she shouldn't IS in danger of having her skull cracked on the street by a "peace officer". Someone who's house is in the wrong place IS in danger of being turned out of it with no compensation or ridiculously insufficient compensation with no legal means of challenging it. Someone who protests a corrupt administration in certain small government areas IS in danger of being committed to an insane asylum so their words never reach higher government or the public at large...

 

Things are better, and a for a middle class person it may even be to the point that they could live their whole life and never feel at a loss for personal freedoms at all. But it's more through reasonable assurance than legal gaurantee.

 

Is that a bit more clear, and seem less extremist? I hope so. I can understand someone arguing against my point by degrees, how necessary such freedoms are, etc... but to deny it all together... well another poster mentioned someone is giving out lobotomies.

[rogerluli]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

It's interesting just how many Westerners actually believe that the Chinese government is milling about snatching people off the street after they fail to follow governmental directions.

 

Truth is, it's just not happening. The people of China in my view, are quite verbal about the things they like in their country and what they don't like, and laugh at the thought of someone suggesting that they will be arrested or otherwise be reprimanded for speaking out.

 

If you contrast China with the West when it comes to civil disobedience, then there are indeed differences. The US allows people to publicly demonstrate, block roads, shout at others with opposing viewpoints, and otherwise impede the normal flow of day to day life. The US was founded upon some of this, but in my view, it's been allowed to continue to an extreme, and has destroyed the very fabric of what America once represented. Unity no longer exists in the US, as there are strong differences between philosophical, and idealogical beliefs.

 

China on the other hand contains a patriotic people, who are becoming increasingly educated at advanced levels. They are no longer a people that shut up and follow directions as they were during the cultural revolution, but are a society of independent thinkers, with a very strong moral and family ethic.

 

This is such a silly view of how Americans are all this way and Chinese are all that way that it really deserves no further comment...