"turn toward a system of liberties, democracy, and rule of law...

[rogerluli]

I have to strongly object to someone trying to change another's meaning by going into their post to change one word...If you have something to say, SAY IT...Don't ride on somebody else's back and think you're effectively used them to make your point...

[david_dawei]

Freedom was recently tested (past year or two) in China by a person or persons merely holding up a sign that said "Free Hugs" nothing political intended or implied just free hugs and this person or persons got quite a few hugs from the thousands of strangers on Wangfujing Av. The police came and ask them to stop the practice and did for a short time and later they began holding the signs up again. Plain clothes police came this time and took them away. They were later released and ask to leave the country. Do you thing that their being released had anything to do with the fact they they were foreigners. What if they had been Chinese?

This is an outgrowth of the Free Hugs Campaign started in Australia in 2004.

 

I've seen video of it going on in BJ by chinese... the police approach the chinese guy offering the free hugs... and you can guess the outcome.. a free hug was provided to the policeman

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Freedom was recently tested (past year or two) in China by a person or persons merely holding up a sign that said "Free Hugs" nothing political intended or implied just free hugs and this person or persons got quite a few hugs from the thousands of strangers on Wangfujing Av. The police came and ask them to stop the practice and did for a short time and later they began holding the signs up again. Plain clothes police came this time and took them away. They were later released and ask to leave the country. Do you thing that their being released had anything to do with the fact they they were foreigners. What if they had been Chinese?

This is an outgrowth of the Free Hugs Campaign started in Australia in 2004.

 

I've seen video of it going on in BJ by chinese... the police approach the chinese guy offering the free hugs... and you can guess the outcome.. a free hug was provided to the policeman

 

News Flash....

 

China is not a democracy, and attempting to compare how things are done in the US to how they are done in China is a fruitless avenue. Course, it keeps Roger and Dave entertained I guess.

 

And what's with this giving out free hugs on the street? I guess the measurement as to whether a people are on a road to pursuing a life of happiness is measured as to whether some whacko can provide free hugs to strangers? Sounds like he'd be better off living in San Francisco.

 

 

Apart from Europeans, I've never seen a people that whine, piss, and moan more than Americans; something of which I'm guilty myself. Perhaps it's just something that happens to many Americans just because they can?

 

I've noticed that when asking Chinese people about their lack of Western freedoms, that you will often be met with a blank stare. I don't believe the root is that they cannot complain and bitch about things, it's just that they choose not to do so. They do however expend a great deal of energy in playing the hand they are dealt, and dealing with it in a far better way than most Americans. And as to not choosing to piss and moan like their Western counterparts, it seems more philosophically rooted rather than because they are worried about being reprimanded or arrested.

 

The best way of measuring the level of happiness of any person, is to simply ask them, rather than tell them.

Edited January 9, 2009 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.

 

How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.

 

Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.

 

Rose was never my color.

 

Jason,

 

While I agree with you in part, I do disagree with your suggestion that ex-pats live in foreign cultures wear rose-colored glasses because the people of the country extend special privileges and kindness to them.

 

While this can happen initially for some, the rubber begins to meet the road usually within a few weeks of arrival. That's right, the newness wears off, and one is able to view things a bit more objectively.

 

Let me just say that in my case, there were no special provisions provided me in my workplace. I do not have a cultural and language translator following me about to assist me with everyday challenges. Many of the emails I open every day are written in Chinese, and the ones that are written in English, must be read carefully to understand the writer's intention. Also, many of the meetings and events I attend are conducted in Chinese. While I am an employee of my company, and resident in China, I am indeed a foreigner in every respect. I am easily spotted as being a foreigner wherever I go, and have never received a special courtesy for being one. To the contrary, most merchants will attempt to charge me more for something I want to buy.

 

Many of the streets are dirty, because many Chinese think of the streets a being a place to dispose of packaging material, or a quick place to take a piss. Trying to do either in the US will often get you a stiff fine or arrested in the case of public urination.

 

Because very few people speak English in China, when I walk into a store, or hail a cab I must use my wits and limited Chinese language ability to get by. If I want to get around from place to place in town, I must resist the fear of getting lost somewhere, or being taken to the wrong place.

 

Several people try working and living in China, but very few stay. I've talked to several English teachers who were burnt out after working one year, and while they were glad for the experience, few would try it again. Those that do stay however, seem to have found a niche, or it just may be as simple as discovering that they actually like it here, despite the vast differences between what they experienced in the West.

 

When it comes to the poor of China, I see a huge difference between them, and what you see in America. For example, few white folk would ever dare take a walk in a poor ethnic community in America, simply because you may leave the area in a body bag. You will find many of these American communities in heavy states of disrepair, with many able bodied men circulating or sitting about on the streets doing nothing, claiming they can't find jobs.

 

In contrast, you will find many in the poor rural communities also doing what they can to get by; selling vegetables, trinkets, cooking street food, collecting trash, and so on. They are much more active, and most of the families that you find broken in the US, remain intact for life in China.

 

It's really not rose-colored glasses at all, but simply of different way of looking at the way things are in the world.

Edited January 9, 2009 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[Dennis143]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.

 

How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.

 

Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.

 

Rose was never my color.

 

Jason,

 

While I agree with you in part, I do disagree with your suggestion that ex-pats live in foreign cultures wear rose-colored glasses because the people of the country extend special privileges and kindness to them.

 

While this can happen initially for some, the rubber begins to meet the road usually within a few weeks of arrival. That's right, the newness wears off, and one is able to view things a bit more objectively.

 

Let me just say that in my case, there were no special provisions provided me in my workplace. I do not have a cultural and language translator following me about to assist me with everyday challenges. Many of the emails I open every day are written in Chinese, and the ones that are written in English, must be read carefully to understand the writer's intention. Also, many of the meetings and events I attend are conducted in Chinese. While I am an employee of my company, and resident in China, I am indeed a foreigner in every respect. I am easily spotted as being a foreigner wherever I go, and have never received a special courtesy for being one. To the contrary, most merchants will attempt to charge me more for something I want to buy.

 

Many of the streets are dirty, because many Chinese think of the streets a being a place to dispose of packaging material, or a quick place to take a piss. Trying to do either in the US will often get you a stiff fine or arrested in the case of public urination.

 

Because very few people speak English in China, when I walk into a store, or hail a cab I must use my wits and limited Chinese language ability to get by. If I want to get around from place to place in town, I must resist the fear of getting lost somewhere, or being taken to the wrong place.

 

Several people try working and living in China, but very few stay. I've talked to several English teachers who were burnt out after working one year, and while they were glad for the experience, few would try it again. Those that do stay however, seem to have found a niche, or it just may be as simple as discovering that they actually like it here, despite the vast differences between what they experienced in the West.

 

When it comes to the poor of China, I see a huge difference between them, and what you see in America. For example, few white folk would ever dare take a walk in a poor ethnic community in America, simply because you may leave the area in a body bag. You will find many of these American communities in heavy states of disrepair, with many able bodied men circulating or sitting about on the streets doing nothing, claiming they can't find jobs.

 

In contrast, you will find many in the poor rural communities also doing what they can to get by; selling vegetables, trinkets, cooking street food, collecting trash, and so on. They are much more active, and most of the families that you find broken in the US, remain intact for life in China.

 

It's really not rose-colored glasses at all, but simply of different way of looking at the way things are in the world.

It is good to read your post, Jesse. It is especially good to read a post from a perspective of one of us living there. I get the sense that you are holding back, however. Nonetheless, regardless, I for one of many wish that you'd share more with us. Please share more with us, if you will.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

It is good to read your post, Jesse. It is especially good to read a post from a perspective of one of us living there. I get the sense that you are holding back, however. Nonetheless, regardless, I for one of many wish that you'd share more with us. Please share more with us, if you will.

 

Thanks for the kind words Dennis.

 

In truth, yes I do hold back when posting on Candle, as I believe most veterans on this site do. I would share more, if the site were welcoming to it, but it's not. I believe there are only about three ex-pats that live in China that post here: GuzBill, Bill and Tian, and myself. Bill has a very strong sort of personality, and has his own perception of China; I sometimes agree with him, and other times don't.

 

I think you and I are close to the same age, which means we grew up during the time the Cultural Revolution was in full swing in China. Then, it was never referred to as just "China," but rather "Red China," or "Communist Red China." The place is full of commies we were taught, that were a threat to the US. Bad, bad China, was all I ever heard and believed.

 

A few weeks ago, one of the design teams for which I work, conducted a team-building event at Qi Xia Mountain, near Nanjing. A lovely small town that is rich in Buddhist culture. There is a trail that leads from the town, into a Buddhist temple, and then snakes its way up the mountain via a lovely trail.

 

All along the mountain trail you will see ancient stone carvings of Buddhist culture. Unfortunately the vast majority of these incredible carvings have had the heads knocked off and destroyed, or the faces chipped away. This all occurred during the cultural revolution. I asked several of my co-workers their thoughts about this, and all expressed deep sadness that the nation endured a time of madness. Yet, virtually every single one of my more than 50 colleagues, bowed and prayed in the Buddhist temple in reverence to Buddha. We all lit and burned incense in quiet prayer, to the south, north, east, and yes, the West....

[IllinoisDave]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.

 

How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.

 

Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.

 

Rose was never my color.

 

I feel limited in that I can only agree with Jason 100%...

I feel the same limitations in my agreement with both.

[GZBILL]

to tell you truth china has many things better than usa, usa appears to like controls many more things in life.

 

I agree with you in many ways Jin...The infrastructure in China is superior in airports, railroads, etc....And the US does control a lot of what people do here BUT...

 

"The Bill of Rights protects freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the freedom of assembly, the freedom to petition, and freedom of the press. It also prohibits unreasonable search and seizure, cruel and unusual punishment, and compelled self-incrimination. The Bill of Rights also prohibits Congress from making any law respecting establishment of religion and prohibits the federal government from depriving any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. In federal criminal cases, it requires indictment by grand jury for any capital or "infamous crime", guarantees a speedy public trial with an impartial jury composed of members of the state or judicial district in which the crime occurred, and prohibits double jeopardy. In addition, the Bill of Rights states that "the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people,"[3] and reserves all powers not granted to the federal government to the citizenry or States."

Wikipedia

 

I still prefer having these rights to the right "to get rich"... And in my reading of what goes on in China I can confidently say that Chinese people possess NONE of the rights in our own Bill of Rights...

 

you maybe can tell that to the man (family) in Denver police shoot dead in his home, when police raided wrong house and said they believe can of beer looked looked like gun.

warrent was for other house. kill him sitting in chair, us press say oh simple mistake, no police arrested.

also i rember seeing army in usa shot students and black people if they gather for protests and usa has jail in cuba without any rights for prisoners, correct ?

 

Yes, quite correct.

 

The US has a long history of abuse and corruption, and has developed very clever means of excusing the behavior. The poor of America are the forgotten people for the richest economy in the world; the rich standing will be surpassed by the rapidly emerging Chinese economy very soon.

 

Personally, I've always felt more safe in China than I ever did in the US.

 

Personally I feel far safer in our little town of 23,000 souls... than I ever did in Guangzhou...

 

As for Jin's remarks it is quite easy to come up with INSTANCES in which American's rights have been abused...Certainly no system is perfect or even close...

 

But I'm sorry if it's laughable to suggest that the Chinese people enjoy anything approaching what Americans have in the arena of human rights, freedoms, and guarantee of the rule of law...

 

 

This whole thread is a joke, right?

 

What Einstein can even suggest that China should somehow modify their political system to come more in line with that of the US? Talk about laughable.

 

One of the foundations of the American system is that there are so many checks and balances in place to prevent any notion of democracy. How democratic is the Electoral College? The only reason it exists is to allow smaller, less urbanized / industrialized states to have significant influence in the electoral process.

 

If anybody had half a brain they'd consider many more factors than their fantasy Bushistic dreams of conquering the world with democracy.

 

In the 13+ years I have been in China I have seen significant change and progress towards a more representative form of government. There was a time when nobody would dare say anything negative about political leaders. Now it is common.

 

Nobody would dare protest outside of the city or provincial government complex. Now it can be seen every day.

 

At one time government officials wouldn't even dare talk with a citizen to hear, much less address, their complaints. Now it happens on a regular basis.

 

True, China doesn't have one man, one vote. But anybody with more than an elementary understanding of the American political system knows that one man, one vote in America can also be a farce.

 

Right now, given China's economic, social, educational and political level of maturity, anybody who thinks the country would survive -- much less prosper -- if they miraculously accepted America's political system overnight needs a lobotomy.

 

I'm willing to donate to the <insert name here> lobotomy fund.

[Jeikun]

 

This whole thread is a joke, right?

 

What Einstein can even suggest that China should somehow modify their political system to come more in line with that of the US? Talk about laughable.

 

 

 

 

The thread was about a document put forth by a group of Chinese living in China, some prominent people, and signed by many more. Also banned heavily. So I guess any time a native Chinese has some notion of democracy it is laughable.

 

So while your reply is about "Bushitic dreams" (gag) of forcing democracy down China (and other's throat)... your post in actuality is a foreigner making light of, insulting, and even mocking a NATIVE CHINESE effort to affect change in their own system. (Though I guess I can understand since it's VERY hard to find it mentioned on the Chinese internet now)

 

And if you actually take the time to read charter 08, it's not about adopting an American system. Rather it's about democratic and republican reforms within China's existing system. We may have got things rolling worldwide, but we aren't the only Republic the last time I checked.

 

As far as the bit about the electoral college and "one man one vote"... that's just a catchphrase anyway. The Electoral college exists to protect from the tyranny of the majority. We are a union of states with differing economic, geographic, and lifestyle realities... lack of an electoral college puts all national elections in the hands of the coastal population centers. If those "smaller less urbanized states" had no say in our federal government, then why should they be part of the union? Democracy is a horrible form of government for anything above a small town level, and debatable even then. We are a REPUBLIC.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[Jeikun]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.

 

How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.

 

Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.

 

Rose was never my color.

 

Jason,

 

While I agree with you in part, I do disagree with your suggestion that ex-pats live in foreign cultures wear rose-colored glasses because the people of the country extend special privileges and kindness to them.

 

While this can happen initially for some, the rubber begins to meet the road usually within a few weeks of arrival. That's right, the newness wears off, and one is able to view things a bit more objectively.

 

Let me just say that in my case, there were no special provisions provided me in my workplace. I do not have a cultural and language translator following me about to assist me with everyday challenges. Many of the emails I open every day are written in Chinese, and the ones that are written in English, must be read carefully to understand the writer's intention. Also, many of the meetings and events I attend are conducted in Chinese. While I am an employee of my company, and resident in China, I am indeed a foreigner in every respect. I am easily spotted as being a foreigner wherever I go, and have never received a special courtesy for being one. To the contrary, most merchants will attempt to charge me more for something I want to buy.

 

Many of the streets are dirty, because many Chinese think of the streets a being a place to dispose of packaging material, or a quick place to take a piss. Trying to do either in the US will often get you a stiff fine or arrested in the case of public urination.

 

Because very few people speak English in China, when I walk into a store, or hail a cab I must use my wits and limited Chinese language ability to get by. If I want to get around from place to place in town, I must resist the fear of getting lost somewhere, or being taken to the wrong place.

 

Several people try working and living in China, but very few stay. I've talked to several English teachers who were burnt out after working one year, and while they were glad for the experience, few would try it again. Those that do stay however, seem to have found a niche, or it just may be as simple as discovering that they actually like it here, despite the vast differences between what they experienced in the West.

 

When it comes to the poor of China, I see a huge difference between them, and what you see in America. For example, few white folk would ever dare take a walk in a poor ethnic community in America, simply because you may leave the area in a body bag. You will find many of these American communities in heavy states of disrepair, with many able bodied men circulating or sitting about on the streets doing nothing, claiming they can't find jobs.

 

In contrast, you will find many in the poor rural communities also doing what they can to get by; selling vegetables, trinkets, cooking street food, collecting trash, and so on. They are much more active, and most of the families that you find broken in the US, remain intact for life in China.

 

It's really not rose-colored glasses at all, but simply of different way of looking at the way things are in the world.

 

 

Oh, of those things I have no doubt, Jesse. I didn't intend to imply life must be a cakewalk for you because you are an American in China. I meant if stopped by the police for something minor you would be less likely to be cracked in the head, etc. Also less likely to be extorted or pushed around from those in a position of authority. On the flip side I guess a foreigner might be MORE likely to be taken advantage of by certain unscrupulous elements (like those who go to teach etc and don't check out their employer well enough) but I was just talking about government and personal freedom, not life in general.

[eseum]

I guess if you believe that there is only an American style of democracy denoted in this pole then I can see the argument here.

 

However, democracy can take many forms and China would not have to take on the form that the U.S. has. And I guess in the end you would not even need to have a democracy to have liberties and rule of law favorable for people to live by.

 

No, I don't believe that democracy should be forced on every country. Each government has the right to screw it's citizens over however they see fit. It is up to the citizens to change that.

 

Humankind unfortunately has a long way to go before the world becomes a garden of eden, and not in a religious sense.

[Jeikun]

I guess if you believe that there is only an American style of democracy denoted in this pole then I can see the argument here.

 

However, democracy can take many forms and China would not have to take on the form that the U.S. has. And I guess in the end you would not even need to have a democracy to have liberties and rule of law favorable for people to live by.

 

No, I don't believe that democracy should be forced on every country. Each government has the right to screw it's citizens over however they see fit. It is up to the citizens to change that.

 

Humankind unfortunately has a long way to go before the world becomes a garden of eden, and not in a religious sense.

 

 

You are right. A government system that by definition is "by the people" is kind of hard to buy when forced on them... kind of defeats the purpose. Also I agree, the USA's form of representitive democracy isn't the only game in town, and while our system vs other democratic systems is one debate... any democratic system when chosen by the people is preferrable to tyranny.

 

That's why I think Charter 08 is interesting. It's a Chinese paper on reform. Do I think it will be a basis for change anytime in the near future? No but it represents a slow evolution of political thought that may one day lead to the reforms it outlines (and I think the CCP agrees which is why if you do a search on it on china google, baidu, etc you get big 0)

[rogerluli]

How democratic is the Electoral College? The only reason it exists is to allow smaller, less urbanized / industrialized states to have significant influence in the electoral process.

 

 

I can't imagine where you learned this...When the Electoral College was developed America was a VERY agrarian society in every state...

[griz326]

Was the USA a democracy before the Civil War?

Before the Civil Rights Act?

 

Basic human rights is not an attribute that is exclusive to democracy.

 

The Chinese system is moving forward in a Chinese way. It would be nice to see some things move a little faster, but governing a billion+ people is not trivial.

 

Why can't you choose both? They are only mutually exclusive to those with a closed mind.

 

POLL SNAFU - no vote

[griz326]

I've noticed that when asking Chinese people about their lack of Western freedoms, that you will often be met with a blank stare. I don't believe the root is that they cannot complain and bitch about things, it's just that they choose not to do so. They do however expend a great deal of energy in playing the hand they are dealt, and dealing with it in a far better way than most Americans. And as to not choosing to piss and moan like their Western counterparts, it seems more philosophically rooted rather than because they are worried about being reprimanded or arrested.

 

 

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! Finally someone with a little understanding of the Chinese.