Gua Sa

[Don]

"Chinese soup spoons"..."toxins being drawn out from my body"... Evidently you get the good stuff out in Cali...

 

I AM SKEPTICAL...

Count me among the skeptical. Heck, I'm usually feeling much better after three days of just advil and chicken soup.

Roger, Dave, my brothers, you've got to learn that healing starts by having a little faith. B)

 

Here's all the FAITH I can manage...

 

It probably won't hurt...

 

Actually the plastic one you pasted above with a pump can hurt. The pump can pull hard and the plastic edge is sharper than the traditional glass ones I prefer. The glass is rounded so it wont cut as the skin is pulled into the cup. I've seen the plastic ones break the skin several times. Once it was me when I agreed to try them instead of the glass cups.

 

I tend to think that the american medical industry is not really about making people healthy just making money. Wait till the person is so sick that you need to cut something out. Many of these techniques focus on wellness and helping people stay healthy. I like many of the TCM and the massage techniques. The Placebo effect might be part of it, if we believe it will make us better.

 

The Placebo effect is also part of the success of medicine. Blind testing has shown about 20% will get better just thinking they have taken an effective medication.

 

Call it a placebo or the power of mind over matter.

 

I agree the placebo effect is strong for most of medicene and big part of its sucess. The pills we take give us faith we will improve and our body heals us. Now do not get me wrong, i think that food and pills do change us and can help heal but there is more than the chemicals involved. What i do not like in medicene today is the focus on managing the symptons. I wish more time was spent on a cure.

[yuehan123]

Evidently you get the good stuff out in Cali...

Don't ya know, they got & do, everything out there on the other coast?

 

I'd like to see a follow up study. Scrape the same way when you are already feeling well. Then what comes out when they scrape you?

[shushuweiwei]

"Chinese soup spoons"..."toxins being drawn out from my body"... Evidently you get the good stuff out in Cali...

 

I AM SKEPTICAL...

Count me among the skeptical. Heck, I'm usually feeling much better after three days of just advil and chicken soup.

Roger, Dave, my brothers, you've got to learn that healing starts by having a little faith. B)

 

Here's all the FAITH I can manage...

 

It probably won't hurt...

 

Actually the plastic one you pasted above with a pump can hurt. The pump can pull hard and the plastic edge is sharper than the traditional glass ones I prefer. The glass is rounded so it wont cut as the skin is pulled into the cup. I've seen the plastic ones break the skin several times. Once it was me when I agreed to try them instead of the glass cups.

 

I tend to think that the american medical industry is not really about making people healthy just making money. Wait till the person is so sick that you need to cut something out. Many of these techniques focus on wellness and helping people stay healthy. I like many of the TCM and the massage techniques. The Placebo effect might be part of it, if we believe it will make us better.

 

The Placebo effect is also part of the success of medicine. Blind testing has shown about 20% will get better just thinking they have taken an effective medication.

 

Call it a placebo or the power of mind over matter.

 

I agree the placebo effect is strong for most of medicene and big part of its sucess. The pills we take give us faith we will improve and our body heals us. Now do not get me wrong, i think that food and pills do change us and can help heal but there is more than the chemicals involved. What i do not like in medicene today is the focus on managing the symptons. I wish more time was spent on a cure.

Just a few comments. Many of these criticisms of western medicine are, in fact, just what people are accusing western medicine of. They are talking points with little foundation that hopefully convince you to choose the billion dollar alternative health system over the western medical system. I'd be happy to get all my patients off all their drugs and so would the vast majority of colleagues that I have had contact with. The problem is that 99.9% of patients are not willing to do what they need to do to stop taking meds. The fact is that western medicine is the best system to save you from an unhealthy lifestyle. The fact is that 99.9% of Americans want to be saved from their lifestyle and refuse to change it. Even when I have offered alternatives, I note that these alternatives come from systems that assume you are eating a certain way and exercising daily. The most common response is, "Doc, I just want an herb that is going to cure me. I'm not interested in changing anything." Even those who say they are really motivated to change come back and say well, not so much. Maybe I'll change next month. I spend considerably more time in my day trying to talk people out of drugs than into them.

Most doctors (me included) come out of school thinking we are going to be the one who convinces people to change their lifestyles. Then we meet up with the sad reality of the American population. Even those who come for alternatives are usually of the mindset that

1) "Drugs" are bad so I want to stop them (drugs are not inherently good or bad, they can be used for either purpose)

2) I don't want to change my lifestyle and i shouldn't have to because Bob at work is worse than me and he looks healthy. (why we need to do a better job of teaching science and logic)

3) I want to pretend that alternative treatments can't have side effects and hope they'll save me from my lifestyle. (pie in the sky)

 

So then, to come up against this reality feels bad enough but then to find out that this is actually MY FAULT because I want to sell drugs, as everyone can so plainly see, is doubly difficult. Those of you who so easily toss around this generalization about doctors might want to think about how totally unfounded your conclusions are. They are no different than conclusions drawn about all Chinese people or all black people.

 

The healthcare problems in America go far beyond the pharmaceutical industry and may I humbly suggest that if 99.9% of the population didn't spend their days creating huge demands for these interventions than you could easily put us drug pushers out of business. Good luck with that.

 

On some of the points that were made:

 

"Healing starts by having a little faith" and so does every con-man count on you to believe. So be very careful of where you put your faith. Con-men are usually much better than honest people at creating faith.

 

Placebo rates of 15 -20 %. The rate of placebo effect in older studies on pain are probably over-estimates of the placebo effect in general. Outside of pain it is not clear that placebo effect even exists. So quoting these high numbers is probably not valid. Diseases and symptoms abate for a variety of reasons including the natural history of the disease. Termination of a symptom/disease after ingesting placebo does not prove causation.

 

"I wish more time was spent on a cure" I'm sorry but probably the silliest criticism of western medicine. How many diseases has western medicine cured that alternative systems wouldn't even touch. Today herbs are offered for all sorts of conditions that the ancient texts say "avoid these people and don't treat them, they die and you look like a bad doctor". In western medicine we have an honest accounting of how well we do with various diseases. Alternative systems don't (in most cases) have any data that demonstrates how well they do. When there is no cure, we pay attention to quality of life and relieving symptoms, if we don't we are accused of not caring about quality of life. If we do, we are accused of preferring to treat symptoms over "cures". If you have the cure for cancer step up to the plate and lay it on us. If not then we will continue to treat symptoms for those that we honestly tell we don't have a cure.

 

One shouldn't forget that alternative medicine is an industry as well. They sell the idea that supplements and herbs have no side effects, which is false. They sell an idea that was never sold by the original practioners of TCM, Ayurveda, etc, that supplements can save you from your lifestyle.

 

There is good and bad in both industries. If you as a patient go in with the idea that one or the other is entirely bad then you have done nothing but take away your freedom to choose the best option for you at any given moment. If anyone truly feels their doc cares more about the pharmaceutical companies than about them, find a new doc. Remember though, that if you are truly willing to change your lifestyle and do what it takes to stay healthy, your doc will most likely be happy to help you with that but you are a rare breed. We see one of you once a year, MAYBE. Don't blame us for not noticing, bring it to our attention.

 

Despite our best effort at lifestyle change people still get sick. There are a wide variety of choices of what to do then but listen to the facts before you decide. The field of medicine is vast, no matter what approach you take. Approach it with an open mind and discover the best path for you.

[Dennis143]

In reply to Shush...

 

Maybe someday medical insurers will give a GOOD LIFESTYLE policy discounts to those who exercise and eat right. Just as auto insurers give out GOOD DRIVER discounts. I'm sure Shush'd agree that a big part of ballooning health care costs result from our obesity epidemic. And, I'd venture that those who try to maintain a healthy lifestyle are in essence subsidizing those who don't.

 

Seems people are living longer today. My 86 and 87 year old mother and father probably would have passed years ago if it weren't for modern medicine. Trouble is, their bodies continue to break down and fail while the drugs keep their heart and blood in working order...

[Dennis143]

The other night I jokingly thanked my friends for the Sha Gua they gave me. They got a hoot out of it (another Chinese friend pointed out the joke).

[Richard & Li]

Excellent post Doc. (What an inadvertent pun, didn't see it until I typed it.)

 

One point you make that has always strongly influenced me to stay away from long term medication is: It is an industry. Their motivations are self serving and financial.

 

I stick with the original wonder drug for most ailments: Aspirin.

[Dan R]

"Chinese soup spoons"..."toxins being drawn out from my body"... Evidently you get the good stuff out in Cali...

 

I AM SKEPTICAL...

Count me among the skeptical. Heck, I'm usually feeling much better after three days of just advil and chicken soup.

Roger, Dave, my brothers, you've got to learn that healing starts by having a little faith. B)

 

Here's all the FAITH I can manage...

 

It probably won't hurt...

 

Actually the plastic one you pasted above with a pump can hurt. The pump can pull hard and the plastic edge is sharper than the traditional glass ones I prefer. The glass is rounded so it wont cut as the skin is pulled into the cup. I've seen the plastic ones break the skin several times. Once it was me when I agreed to try them instead of the glass cups.

 

I tend to think that the american medical industry is not really about making people healthy just making money. Wait till the person is so sick that you need to cut something out. Many of these techniques focus on wellness and helping people stay healthy. I like many of the TCM and the massage techniques. The Placebo effect might be part of it, if we believe it will make us better.

 

The Placebo effect is also part of the success of medicine. Blind testing has shown about 20% will get better just thinking they have taken an effective medication.

 

Call it a placebo or the power of mind over matter.

 

I agree the placebo effect is strong for most of medicene and big part of its sucess. The pills we take give us faith we will improve and our body heals us. Now do not get me wrong, i think that food and pills do change us and can help heal but there is more than the chemicals involved. What i do not like in medicene today is the focus on managing the symptons. I wish more time was spent on a cure.

Just a few comments. Many of these criticisms of western medicine are, in fact, just what people are accusing western medicine of. They are talking points with little foundation that hopefully convince you to choose the billion dollar alternative health system over the western medical system. I'd be happy to get all my patients off all their drugs and so would the vast majority of colleagues that I have had contact with. The problem is that 99.9% of patients are not willing to do what they need to do to stop taking meds. The fact is that western medicine is the best system to save you from an unhealthy lifestyle. The fact is that 99.9% of Americans want to be saved from their lifestyle and refuse to change it. Even when I have offered alternatives, I note that these alternatives come from systems that assume you are eating a certain way and exercising daily. The most common response is, "Doc, I just want an herb that is going to cure me. I'm not interested in changing anything." Even those who say they are really motivated to change come back and say well, not so much. Maybe I'll change next month. I spend considerably more time in my day trying to talk people out of drugs than into them.

Most doctors (me included) come out of school thinking we are going to be the one who convinces people to change their lifestyles. Then we meet up with the sad reality of the American population. Even those who come for alternatives are usually of the mindset that

1) "Drugs" are bad so I want to stop them (drugs are not inherently good or bad, they can be used for either purpose)

2) I don't want to change my lifestyle and i shouldn't have to because Bob at work is worse than me and he looks healthy. (why we need to do a better job of teaching science and logic)

3) I want to pretend that alternative treatments can't have side effects and hope they'll save me from my lifestyle. (pie in the sky)

 

So then, to come up against this reality feels bad enough but then to find out that this is actually MY FAULT because I want to sell drugs, as everyone can so plainly see, is doubly difficult. Those of you who so easily toss around this generalization about doctors might want to think about how totally unfounded your conclusions are. They are no different than conclusions drawn about all Chinese people or all black people.

 

The healthcare problems in America go far beyond the pharmaceutical industry and may I humbly suggest that if 99.9% of the population didn't spend their days creating huge demands for these interventions than you could easily put us drug pushers out of business. Good luck with that.

 

On some of the points that were made:

 

"Healing starts by having a little faith" and so does every con-man count on you to believe. So be very careful of where you put your faith. Con-men are usually much better than honest people at creating faith.

 

Placebo rates of 15 -20 %. The rate of placebo effect in older studies on pain are probably over-estimates of the placebo effect in general. Outside of pain it is not clear that placebo effect even exists. So quoting these high numbers is probably not valid. Diseases and symptoms abate for a variety of reasons including the natural history of the disease. Termination of a symptom/disease after ingesting placebo does not prove causation.

 

"I wish more time was spent on a cure" I'm sorry but probably the silliest criticism of western medicine. How many diseases has western medicine cured that alternative systems wouldn't even touch. Today herbs are offered for all sorts of conditions that the ancient texts say "avoid these people and don't treat them, they die and you look like a bad doctor". In western medicine we have an honest accounting of how well we do with various diseases. Alternative systems don't (in most cases) have any data that demonstrates how well they do. When there is no cure, we pay attention to quality of life and relieving symptoms, if we don't we are accused of not caring about quality of life. If we do, we are accused of preferring to treat symptoms over "cures". If you have the cure for cancer step up to the plate and lay it on us. If not then we will continue to treat symptoms for those that we honestly tell we don't have a cure.

 

One shouldn't forget that alternative medicine is an industry as well. They sell the idea that supplements and herbs have no side effects, which is false. They sell an idea that was never sold by the original practioners of TCM, Ayurveda, etc, that supplements can save you from your lifestyle.

 

There is good and bad in both industries. If you as a patient go in with the idea that one or the other is entirely bad then you have done nothing but take away your freedom to choose the best option for you at any given moment. If anyone truly feels their doc cares more about the pharmaceutical companies than about them, find a new doc. Remember though, that if you are truly willing to change your lifestyle and do what it takes to stay healthy, your doc will most likely be happy to help you with that but you are a rare breed. We see one of you once a year, MAYBE. Don't blame us for not noticing, bring it to our attention.

 

Despite our best effort at lifestyle change people still get sick. There are a wide variety of choices of what to do then but listen to the facts before you decide. The field of medicine is vast, no matter what approach you take. Approach it with an open mind and discover the best path for you.

 

As an Alternative Practitioner I basicly agree with you. It is very disappointing that most of my clients are back again because they don't avoid the cause of injury or illness. I think we would be all better off if Medicine and Alternatives could be used side by side as Complimentary Medicine. There are a few hospitals now that do this.

[Don]

I guess i am speaking more about the pharma industry. I am a chemist and do know a little about the pharma industry. Not a lot,but i do know a few chemist in that industry and I stick by my statement you think is unfair.

 

Do not cure a disease if you can maintain it.

 

Plus, what about natural product. I have seen numbers in respected journals that abut 70% of all drugs "invented" over the last 30 years have come from or based on natural products. The one example i know well is red yeast rice extract. and Lipitor.

 

The chemist took red yeast rice extract and found the active ingredients. than found one that had most of the bio-activity and made it. Than proved that reduce cholesterol. Stain drugs were "invented". No where did they publish that red yeast rice is as good and maybe better since it also increases HDL numbers and has been used in TCM for a long time for the same reason.

 

Plus, i understand all drugs including food have side effects. Plus, I understand herbs and leaves are all drugs.