19,000 out of 80,000...

[rogerluli]

Oh come on now! Did you really expect anything more? This is China! Do not rock the boat! Do not create dissension! Learn to overcome all difficulties! Biting the hand that feed you usually means that you now become the meal!

 

Unfortunately true Larry...

 

But I keep hoping for real change...

 

I keep hoping for the country that China could become...

 

But I fear that the transition would NOT be pretty...

[rogerluli]

Probably the greatest diffrerence between the handling of the Sichuan earthquake and Hurricane Katrina is a free press... In America you get it all baby, the good, the bad and the ugly thanks to a free fourth estate... In China you get what the government wants you to know...

 

I'll take a free press for my information thank you...

[shushuweiwei]

Parents of children killed in their classrooms during the May 12 Sichuan earthquake filed a lawsuit Dec. 1 demanding compensation from the government for their loss...Inesplicably this story has not been reported at all in China... The news sources must surely have merely overlooked it...

 

Yes these are the same children that dear friend SSWW claimed had been killed by the collapse of one foot high decorative block walls...

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/world/as...tml?_r=1&hp

 

You are quite the skilled practitioner of deceptive rhetoric! Do you enjoy telling lies about others to advance your unfounded opinions or is it a compulsion?

 

Please cut and paste any post where you could document your ridiculous straw man. I stated that your picture of a small piece of cinder block, that you hold up as proof of your arguments, is proof of nothing. I stated that I suspected there were problems with the school construction but unlike you, I don't have "proof" of that. I could take a picture of a cinder block and claim it proves my assertions, I just don't operate that way because of an attachment to honesty. I'm sorry if my attachment bothers you. Please don't feel the need to speak honestly about what you actually know and don't know on my account. You are free to fill candle with fact-free rhetoric if you wish.

 

But since you have thrown out this ridiculous argument again, step up to the plate. Lay out the actual evidence you have that that picture is a weightbearing wall built without rebar and not a non-weight-bearing wall or decorative cinder block wall. I anxiously await your "proof." Once you have laid out the facts that you can confirm about that picture, we'll all know the hard work you did to confirm what that picture actually represents. I DON"T KNOW what that picture is and I mentioned some of the possibilities. I NEVER claimed to know what that picture is. You are the one who "knows" it is a wall built without rebar. It may be, but at this point YOU DON"T KNOW THAT.

 

Who took the picture?

Where, exactly?

What part of the structure does it represent?

How did you determine that?

How were you able to distinguish that chunk of concrete as "wall without rebar" and not appropriate cinder block construction?

The actual piece of concrete seems quite small. What steps did you take to document that overall school construction in Sichuan could be extrapolated from that small bit of concrete?

How much time did you spend researching these important questions so that you could feel comfortable making the public claim that your picture proves what you claim?

Maybe you could take a moment off from lying about what I said to answer some of those questions? I made no claims about knowing how anyone died in this disaster.

 

That picture and your caption are nothing but a device to inflame emotions and detracts from the real discussion of the problems, although it does garner you much attention and cast you as the compassionate, irate crusader with proof of the conspiracy. Might you be enjoying that attention? Wait! I will soon have a picture of you smiling and that will prove that you're enjoying the attention. If it's fair for you, I should be able to use the same device, correct? So what if I don't know why you're smiling. It nust be for the reason I imagine and that is enough to call it proof by your standards.

 

If you've done no research on that picture and you don't know what part of the structure that picture represents, you should stop publishing your assertion that you have evidence of no rebar walls. There very well may have been no rebar walls. You simply don't have the evidence you claim to have. Stop trying to pretend that I have less compassion for the victims, merely because you want to be right about your silly picture.

 

Anyone able to read English will be able to see that my argument was always about your picture and what you claim it represents and proves. Why are you unable to grasp that?

[rogerluli]

Yes, yes lets keep the entire arguement on the pic of a chunk of concrete and never talk about the tofu schools or the thousands of children and teachers that died needlessly...

 

Really though you should look for a position in the Chinese government as an apologist...

[sleepless in Houston&CQ]

I just love this time of the year...

spreading love around durning the holidays makes everyone

feel loved....

love you Roggie...

not really but it sounded good.... huh?

[rogerluli]

I just love this time of the year...

spreading love around durning the holidays makes everyone

feel loved....

love you Roggie...

not really but it sounded good.... huh?

 

Love you too Bobby...

 

As one Chinese real estate EXPERT to another that is...

[griz326]

Totally unrealistic to think that China could become a functioning democracy.

 

I thought all educated people understood that "functioning democracy" was, is and has always been an OXYMORON.

 

Part of the reason that the people are reasonably happy there is that they don't give the government a single thought most of the time. That leaves them plenty of brainwaves to think about things that do matter.

 

There may be a small amount of truth to that for the under 45 crowd; but the real reason is that most of the people understand what suffering really is.

 

For anyone to think that building inspectors in the USA never take bribes has a tremendously short memory. There have been numerous cases of leaving rebar out of concrete piers and slabs over the years and it still happens today. We may get all of the news, but government writes great fiction for the historic coverup of whatever went wrong.

 

As for NOLA: people who live below sea level are not smart enough to still be in the gene pool so they were just victims of mother nature.

[IllinoisDave]

It WAS kinda hard to tell which the Doc was more enraged by, Rog's hyperbole-tinged reference to his skepticism, or the fact that he had the audacity to repeat the suggestion of shoddy construction.

 

While I don't necessarily begrudge Jim the former, it was kinda lost in the sound and fury of the latter.

 

I'm with Rog on the gist of the story. Of course we have no fool-proof way to get the evidence needed to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that no rebar was used or that any other corners were cut for that matter. The Chinese gubmint's well-documented ability to clamp down on any sort of dissemination of that type of information makes it nearly impossible to do that, at least to the degree Jim seems to require.

 

But IMHO before that wall of silence was raised there were enough eyewitness accounts in the immediate aftermath both by people on the scene and people familiar with the construction practices in that area to make a reasonable conclusion that what was being said was very likely true.

 

Would it hold up in a court of law? Maybe not. But not everything presented as "evidence" in a court of law is necessarily true either.

[Don]

It WAS kinda hard to tell which the Doc was more enraged by, Rog's hyperbole-tinged reference to his skepticism, or the fact that he had the audacity to repeat the suggestion of shoddy construction.

 

While I don't necessarily begrudge Jim the former, it was kinda lost in the sound and fury of the latter.

 

I'm with Rog on the gist of the story. Of course we have no fool-proof way to get the evidence needed to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that no rebar was used or that any other corners were cut for that matter. The Chinese gubmint's well-documented ability to clamp down on any sort of dissemination of that type of information makes it nearly impossible to do that, at least to the degree Jim seems to require.

 

But IMHO before that wall of silence was raised there were enough eyewitness accounts in the immediate aftermath both by people on the scene and people familiar with the construction practices in that area to make a reasonable conclusion that what was being said was very likely true.

 

Would it hold up in a court of law? Maybe not. But not everything presented as "evidence" in a court of law is necessarily true either.

 

I guess the only way we can now more is to ask the locals. Any locals care to comment? I know some of the school officials and CP individual have expressed great regret over the schools. Plus, I know the one school principle that made himself very unpopular during the building of the schools by watching everything and insisting on high quality is now a hero in the people mind. A few CP individuals have now committed suicide over their regret for their actions. It seems like there is a smoking gun behind this.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Don (see edit history)

[Guest Tony n Terrific]

China's top legislature has set stricter construction standards for schools after thousands of poorly built classrooms collapsed in May's massive earthquake, killing many students, state media reported.

 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081228/ap_on_...67BuAAJ.MoBxg8F

[rogerluli]

It WAS kinda hard to tell which the Doc was more enraged by, Rog's hyperbole-tinged reference to his skepticism, or the fact that he had the audacity to repeat the suggestion of shoddy construction.

 

While I don't necessarily begrudge Jim the former, it was kinda lost in the sound and fury of the latter.

 

I'm with Rog on the gist of the story. Of course we have no fool-proof way to get the evidence needed to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that no rebar was used or that any other corners were cut for that matter. The Chinese gubmint's well-documented ability to clamp down on any sort of dissemination of that type of information makes it nearly impossible to do that, at least to the degree Jim seems to require.

 

But IMHO before that wall of silence was raised there were enough eyewitness accounts in the immediate aftermath both by people on the scene and people familiar with the construction practices in that area to make a reasonable conclusion that what was being said was very likely true.

 

Would it hold up in a court of law? Maybe not. But not everything presented as "evidence" in a court of law is necessarily true either.

 

I guess the only way we can now more is to ask the locals. Any locals care to comment? I know some of the school officials and CP individual have expressed great regret over the schools. Plus, I know the one school principle that made himself very unpopular during the building of the schools by watching everything and insisting on high quality is now a hero in the people mind. A few CP individuals have now committed suicide over their regret for their actions. It seems like there is a smoking gun behind this.

 

Excatly right on both of those stories Don...Only someone who refuses to see... can now doubt what happened with school construction in the earthquake zone... and in how much of China that is also earthquake prone...

[shadeOgray]

It WAS kinda hard to tell which the Doc was more enraged by, Rog's hyperbole-tinged reference to his skepticism, or the fact that he had the audacity to repeat the suggestion of shoddy construction.

 

While I don't necessarily begrudge Jim the former, it was kinda lost in the sound and fury of the latter.

 

I'm with Rog on the gist of the story. Of course we have no fool-proof way to get the evidence needed to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that no rebar was used or that any other corners were cut for that matter. The Chinese gubmint's well-documented ability to clamp down on any sort of dissemination of that type of information makes it nearly impossible to do that, at least to the degree Jim seems to require.

 

But IMHO before that wall of silence was raised there were enough eyewitness accounts in the immediate aftermath both by people on the scene and people familiar with the construction practices in that area to make a reasonable conclusion that what was being said was very likely true.

 

Would it hold up in a court of law? Maybe not. But not everything presented as "evidence" in a court of law is necessarily true either.

 

I guess the only way we can now more is to ask the locals. Any locals care to comment? I know some of the school officials and CP individual have expressed great regret over the schools. Plus, I know the one school principle that made himself very unpopular during the building of the schools by watching everything and insisting on high quality is now a hero in the people mind. A few CP individuals have now committed suicide over their regret for their actions. It seems like there is a smoking gun behind this.

 

Excatly right on both of those stories Don...Only someone who refuses to see... can now doubt what happened with school construction in the earthquake zone... and in how much of China that is also earthquake prone...

Don't sweat it to much, you can lead a horse to water you know but...

B)

[rogerluli]

It WAS kinda hard to tell which the Doc was more enraged by, Rog's hyperbole-tinged reference to his skepticism, or the fact that he had the audacity to repeat the suggestion of shoddy construction.

 

While I don't necessarily begrudge Jim the former, it was kinda lost in the sound and fury of the latter.

 

I'm with Rog on the gist of the story. Of course we have no fool-proof way to get the evidence needed to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that no rebar was used or that any other corners were cut for that matter. The Chinese gubmint's well-documented ability to clamp down on any sort of dissemination of that type of information makes it nearly impossible to do that, at least to the degree Jim seems to require.

 

But IMHO before that wall of silence was raised there were enough eyewitness accounts in the immediate aftermath both by people on the scene and people familiar with the construction practices in that area to make a reasonable conclusion that what was being said was very likely true.

 

Would it hold up in a court of law? Maybe not. But not everything presented as "evidence" in a court of law is necessarily true either.

 

I guess the only way we can now more is to ask the locals. Any locals care to comment? I know some of the school officials and CP individual have expressed great regret over the schools. Plus, I know the one school principle that made himself very unpopular during the building of the schools by watching everything and insisting on high quality is now a hero in the people mind. A few CP individuals have now committed suicide over their regret for their actions. It seems like there is a smoking gun behind this.

 

Excatly right on both of those stories Don...Only someone who refuses to see... can now doubt what happened with school construction in the earthquake zone... and in how much of China that is also earthquake prone...

Don't sweat it to much, you can lead a horse to water you know but...

B)

 

I know, I know but being a "plugger" by nature I keep trying... B)

[Yuanyang]

It WAS kinda hard to tell which the Doc was more enraged by, Rog's hyperbole-tinged reference to his skepticism, or the fact that he had the audacity to repeat the suggestion of shoddy construction.

 

While I don't necessarily begrudge Jim the former, it was kinda lost in the sound and fury of the latter.

 

I'm with Rog on the gist of the story. Of course we have no fool-proof way to get the evidence needed to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that no rebar was used or that any other corners were cut for that matter. The Chinese gubmint's well-documented ability to clamp down on any sort of dissemination of that type of information makes it nearly impossible to do that, at least to the degree Jim seems to require.

 

But IMHO before that wall of silence was raised there were enough eyewitness accounts in the immediate aftermath both by people on the scene and people familiar with the construction practices in that area to make a reasonable conclusion that what was being said was very likely true.

 

Would it hold up in a court of law? Maybe not. But not everything presented as "evidence" in a court of law is necessarily true either.

 

I guess the only way we can now more is to ask the locals. Any locals care to comment? I know some of the school officials and CP individual have expressed great regret over the schools. Plus, I know the one school principle that made himself very unpopular during the building of the schools by watching everything and insisting on high quality is now a hero in the people mind. A few CP individuals have now committed suicide over their regret for their actions. It seems like there is a smoking gun behind this.

 

Excatly right on both of those stories Don...Only someone who refuses to see... B) can now doubt what happened with school construction in the earthquake zone... B) and in how much of China that is also earthquake prone...

Don't sweat it to much, you can lead a horse to water you know but...

B)

 

I know, I know but being a "plugger" by nature I keep trying...

Doesn't "plugger" mean skilled practitioner of deceptive rhetoric? Someone with the latest version of the Triggionary can check it. Inquiring minds want to know!

[rogerluli]

It WAS kinda hard to tell which the Doc was more enraged by, Rog's hyperbole-tinged reference to his skepticism, or the fact that he had the audacity to repeat the suggestion of shoddy construction.

 

While I don't necessarily begrudge Jim the former, it was kinda lost in the sound and fury of the latter. B)

 

I'm with Rog on the gist of the story. Of course we have no fool-proof way to get the evidence needed to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that no rebar was used or that any other corners were cut for that matter. The Chinese gubmint's well-documented ability to clamp down on any sort of dissemination of that type of information makes it nearly impossible to do that, at least to the degree Jim seems to require.

 

But IMHO before that wall of silence was raised there were enough eyewitness accounts in the immediate aftermath both by people on the scene and people familiar with the construction practices in that area to make a reasonable conclusion that what was being said was very likely true.

 

Would it hold up in a court of law? Maybe not. But not everything presented as "evidence" in a court of law is necessarily true either.

 

I guess the only way we can now more is to ask the locals. Any locals care to comment? I know some of the school officials and CP individual have expressed great regret over the schools. Plus, I know the one school principle that made himself very unpopular during the building of the schools by watching everything and insisting on high quality is now a hero in the people mind. A few CP individuals have now committed suicide over their regret for their actions. It seems like there is a smoking gun behind this.

 

Excatly right on both of those stories Don...Only someone who refuses to see... B) can now doubt what happened with school construction in the earthquake zone... and in how much of China that is also earthquake prone...

Don't sweat it to much, you can lead a horse to water you know but...

B)

 

I know, I know but being a "plugger" by nature I keep trying...

Doesn't "plugger" mean skilled practitioner of deceptive rhetoric? B) Someone with the latest version of the Triggionary can check it. Inquiring minds want to know!

 

Gosh Bob you're giving me too much credit... According to the wife I'm just a simple man who only has one thing on his mind...