China/US relations take a hit

[IllinoisDave]

Do the folks in our government making these decisions operate in an effing vacuum? Do we really need the money that badly? Don't answer that.

 

http://www.startribune.com/nation/30525644...iD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

Edited October 6, 2008 by IllinoisDave (see edit history)

[SheLikesME?]

This was coming for some time. Looks like this is not the ship deal. Maybe that is done or coming. I don't for a minute believe money was the motivation.

 

This is a real touchy situation.

[Guest Mike and Lily]

Do the folks in our government making these decisions operate in an effing vacuum? Do we really need the money that badly? Don't answer that.

 

http://www.startribune.com/nation/30525644...iD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

 

Believe it or not, we are required by law to sell weapons to Taiwan. It's not a financial issue. I think we should change the law so we are not require to do that, but I also think China should tone down it's rhetoric. Taiwan is no threat to them.

 

http://www.heritage.org/Research/TradeandF...oad/wm_1962.pdf

[IllinoisDave]

This was coming for some time. Looks like this is not the ship deal. Maybe that is done or coming. I don't for a minute believe money was the motivation.

 

This is a real touchy situation.

Which is kinda my point. We aren't looking to arms deals with Taiwan to close the national debt gap. So why do we do s**t like this knowing full well it'll alienate the hell out of China? I just don't see the benefit aside from soothing an already solid ally. It's not like they're ever gonna use this stuff.

[IllinoisDave]

Do the folks in our government making these decisions operate in an effing vacuum? Do we really need the money that badly? Don't answer that.

 

http://www.startribune.com/nation/30525644...iD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

 

Believe it or not, we are required by law to sell weapons to Taiwan. It's not a financial issue. I think we should change the law so we are not require to do that, but I also think China should tone down it's rhetoric. Taiwan is no threat to them.

 

http://www.heritage.org/Research/TradeandF...oad/wm_1962.pdf

I could be wrong but as I read that law Mike it applies to private businesses and the US gov't not interferring in their transactions with nations friendly to us who are being boycotted by ones not so friendly. This arms sale is,as far as I can tell, a US gov't enterprise.

 

From the article:

"Upton said the sale does not represent a change in U.S. policy and that Washington is only upholding the provisions of the Taiwan Relations Act under which the U.S. makes available items necessary for Taiwan to maintain a sufficient self defense.

 

Taiwan relies on U.S. weapons to keep pace with China's massive arms buildup across the Taiwan Strait. U.S. arms sales to Taiwan are a crucial matter because any dispute between China and Taiwan could ensnare the United States.

 

Washington is Taiwan's most important ally and largest arms supplier."

 

This sounds like arms sales like this one are done on a more arbitrary basis, not as a requirement of a treaty or pact like the one you cited. Who decides what's "necessary" for Taiwan to maintain a sufficient self defense? And do we really think Taiwan can "keep pace" with China in an arms race? These are rhetorical questions Mike. Not aimed at you.

Edited October 6, 2008 by IllinoisDave (see edit history)

[warpedbored]

China could squish Taiwan like a bug anytime it wishes. The fact they haven't yet shows remarkable restraint. Should China lose patience i seriously doubt the US would come to Taiwan's rescue. Short of selling Taiwan nuclear weapons Taiwan could not defend itself.

[Guest Mike and Lily]

Sorry Dave, I quoted the incorrect law. Here is the correct one.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act

[IllinoisDave]

Sorry Dave, I quoted the incorrect law. Here is the correct one.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act

Thanks Mike. That one's cited in the article as well. I still don't see where it states that selling arms to Taiwan NOW is REQUIRED. It's very ambiguous as it's worded in the Wiki entry. It seems to be unstated but implied that the US gov't still has a lot of discretion as to when and what we sell to Taiwan. Just seems to me we're not excercising that discretion very well.

[Guest Mike and Lily]

Sorry Dave, I quoted the incorrect law. Here is the correct one.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act

Thanks Mike. That one's cited in the article as well. I still don't see where it states that selling arms to Taiwan NOW is REQUIRED. It's very ambiguous as it's worded in the Wiki entry. It seems to be unstated but implied that the US gov't still has a lot of discretion as to when and what we sell to Taiwan. Just seems to me we're not excercising that discretion very well.

 

That would be a first!

[lostinblue]

I think by treaty we are required to come to their aid.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Because I've always found the issue relating to Taiwan and China quite confusing, I decided to ask several questions of the people while I was there. One of the first questions was:

 

"Do you think of Taiwan as being part of China?"

 

The answer I received was completely dependent upon who you asked, and there was by no means a consensus from the people. But, nearly everyone was in favor of friendly relations with China, and many have family there and travel often. While there, it was also apparent that the government of Taiwan takes it seriously.

 

Two times per year, Taiwan conducts air raid drills. Each air raid drill is preceded by a few days of active postings and communications of the upcoming drill. Everyone is expected to be off the streets when the sirens sound. All traffic on the roads must exit all thoroughfares, and park. Before personally witnessing one of these drills, I wondered whether the people would cooperate with such a drill. To my amazement, while watching from the 19th floor of my office building, all people disappeared from the streets, and virtually every road in sight was absent of moving traffic. This all happened within five minutes. Within ten minutes, the city was like a ghost town. The drill continued on, for 30 minutes, and ended with an all-clear siren.

 

Taiwan is heavily Westernized. And apart from a few more freedoms, the culture doesn't seem too much different from that in China. Taiwan recently experienced its own scandal in government, with former president Chen Shui-bian being forced to resign after being discovered taking bribes and skimming funds. His response: "Everyone is doing it."

 

Personally, I get the feeling that it's a few power players in Taiwan government, coupled by a US desire for strategic control that fuels this arms sale. The people of Taiwan don't seem to see the same problems with China, that the militant do-gooders in the West do.

Edited October 6, 2008 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[IllinoisDave]

I think by treaty we are required to come to their aid.

Yes, but unless I missed something in the news they haven't been attacked in the last few days so don't appear to be in need of any aid.

[IllinoisDave]

Personally, I get the feeling that it's a few power players in Taiwan government, coupled by a US desire for strategic control that fuels this arms sale.

I don't doubt this is true Jesse. I just can't get past the "Why now?" question. I mean relations between the US and China have been fairly cordial lately, working together to solve the N. Korea problem for instance. There seems to have been a dropoff in much of the rhetoric we saw leading up to the Olympics. And isn't the new gov't in Taiwan supposed to be more "mainland-friendly" than past ones?

 

There must be something else behind this besides just us fulfilling our obligations under some diplomatic treaty. I just can't get my head wrapped around what the hell that could be.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Personally, I get the feeling that it's a few power players in Taiwan government, coupled by a US desire for strategic control that fuels this arms sale.

I don't doubt this is true Jesse. I just can't get past the "Why now?" question. I mean relations between the US and China have been fairly cordial lately, working together to solve the N. Korea problem for instance. There seems to have been a dropoff in much of the rhetoric we saw leading up to the Olympics. And isn't the new gov't in Taiwan supposed to be more "mainland-friendly" than past ones?

 

There must be something else behind this besides just us fulfilling our obligations under some diplomatic treaty. I just can't get my head wrapped around what the hell that could be.

 

 

I'm not sure Dave. The situation with Taiwan is quite complicated, and extremely controversial. Many of the products the US bought from Taiwan, are now being bought from China. Taiwan is becoming more of a tourist mecca than the cheap suppler of products it once was.

 

There is a long history China and the US trading strong language with each other over issues. It's no secret that China considers Taiwan to be a part of its country. So, when the US does something provocative like this, China steps up and lets them know that it's not okay to do so. The US would do exactly the same if the situation were reversed.

 

There is a strong cultural bond and great history between Taiwan and China. The US has only been a player in recent history. The tie between China and Taiwan goes back thousands of years. It's a bond that cannot be broken by the sale of a few military products.

[Yuanyang]

All of it will be part of the People's Navy soon enough. In the meantime it's just something to squabble over and provide negotiation points.