Christianity in China...

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

I have watched this thread from it's beginning and I must say that the overwhelming majority has no idea of what Christianity is really about. I can see that most here group Christianity solely as a religion. Indeed it is a religion but it is also a "relationship." That is, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't have a personal relationship with Christ then you can't really understand Christianity to it's fullest extent. Generally speaking, religion is people doing good works and deeds to gain the favor of God, or a god. A relationship with Christ is having Christ in your heart thus good works and deeds come from the inside out.

Cuzin Roggie freely admitted that he is not a Christian but came from a Christian upbringing. I think that is the case with many here. Many people associate Christianity with a set of laws to live by therefore rendering the term "Christianity" as a set of laws within the conscience to live by. If the "law" is what we solely live by then we are in a heep of trouble. Only through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ can we begin to really understand what these laws are all about. It's from the inside out, not from the outside in.

 

You're right Chilton. The insight and experience of someone that actually lives and leads a Christian life is considerably more valuable for a topic like this.

Edited October 11, 2008 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[Mick]

I have watched this thread from it's beginning and I must say that the overwhelming majority has no idea of what Christianity is really about. I can see that most here group Christianity solely as a religion. Indeed it is a religion but it is also a "relationship." That is, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't have a personal relationship with Christ then you can't really understand Christianity to it's fullest extent. Generally speaking, religion is people doing good works and deeds to gain the favor of God, or a god. A relationship with Christ is having Christ in your heart thus good works and deeds come from the inside out.

Cuzin Roggie freely admitted that he is not a Christian but came from a Christian upbringing. I think that is the case with many here. Many people associate Christianity with a set of laws to live by therefore rendering the term "Christianity" as a set of laws within the conscience to live by. If the "law" is what we solely live by then we are in a heep of trouble. Only through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ can we begin to really understand what these laws are all about. It's from the inside out, not from the outside in.

Very Well Said!!!!

 

I am reminded of the movie "Oh God" in which John Denver finally meets God (George Burns) face to face. Denver says, "But why did you pick me. I'm just a produce manager. I don't even belong to the church."

 

God responds: "Neither do I."

[Mick]

Just thought I would share an article I recently published in an e-zine that discusses some of the image problems Christianity has these days, especially in the States. It is interesting to not that before long China will have more Christians than any other country in the world. Even though that number may be a relatively small percentage of the population in China, it will perhaps be a force to be considered in the shaping of the Christian faith in the new World Culture. Anyway, here is the article. It your not interested, just skip over it....it is kind of detailed.....

 

Keys To A Vital Faith: Open Mindedness

 

Mick Turner

 

Contemporary critics of the Christian faith usually do not have to look too hard to find ammunition they can use against the Church. More often than not, we Christians tend to provide more than enough ammo to keep the firepower of their arsenal at a high level. A recent book, I’m Fine With God; It’s Christians I Can’t Stand, by Bruce Bickel and Stan Jantz, addresses this issue with both clarity and humor.

 

It should be noted that Bickel and Jantz are Christians. Like an increasing number of thoughtful believers, this pair of authors are willing to take a look at the contemporary Body of Christ and confront aspects of the church that tend to create a less than savory view of Christians by non-believers. One of the issues addressed in the book is the tendency on the part of some believers, too many if the truth be told, who think they have a monopoly on truth. These folks operate by the credo, whether spoken or not, that they have the answers to life’s most perplexing questions, so there is no need to explore anything any further. Those outside the church tend to view this trait as both arrogant and closed-minded.

 

As Christians, I am now convinced that we desperately need to develop an attitude of openness. By this I simply mean that in order to make progress, we have to do things differently than we have in the past. This, my friend, means we have to encounter change. Many of us avoid change, choosing to stay with the familiar, with the status quo. Unfortunately, if we want to grow we have to change. And, if we want to change, we have to be flexible in our approach to life and open to new ways of doing things.

 

The one sure thing that can keep a person in everlasting ignorance is a closed mind. To live a life based on spiritual principles is to always strive to be open to new ideas, new concepts, and fresh and invigorating ways of doing things. So often many of us go about our daily rounds, living life in the same routine way and responding to the events of the day in the same old ritualistic ways that we always have. The same is true for our thinking. We think the same kind of thoughts, hold the same views and opinions, and approach life in the same timeworn way that we always have. No matter that some of these behaviors and thought patterns are non-productive and destructive. We cherish them because they are familiar and comfortable. By living this way we never have to stretch our minds.

 

The process of spiritual formation along biblical lines challenges this way of being and encourages us to venture out into new ways of doing things and fresh ways of thinking. We are challenged to look at things from a different perspective and, when we do, we are transformed - changed in a positive way. Paul called this “renewing the mind” and basically said this was the foundation stone of personal and spiritual development. Oliver Wendell Holmes said it so well: Man's mind, stretched to a new idea, never goes back to its original dimension.

 

Sometimes it is difficult for Christians to think outside the box. I think this handicap, and that is what it is, has come about for several reasons. For some ardent conservatives, to think beyond those parameters defined for us by church leaders both ancient and contemporary, is to invite doctrinal error. Heaven forbid! We would never want to do that now would we?

 

It is as Clark, a Fundamentalist friend of mine, so cogently put it:

 

“First you start entertaining thoughts that are unconventional and from there you begin to mull over ideas that are more than non-traditional, they are downright weird. From there, it is a short step to doctrinal error. Fan the flames of doctrinal error just a tad and you end up with a full blown heresy. And from that theological tightrope, it is easy to take the fall into apostasy.”

 

Sometimes Clark has a way with words, even if he has a major problem with his tightly wound thinking. I would say that it is people who believe as Clark does, that all one needs is the Bible (interpreted in an ultra-literal fashion) and the historic creeds of the church that fear out of the box thinking more than most.

 

Another factor influencing people’s reluctance to think out of the box is social expectations and the fear of rejection. More than a few believers have both doubts and questions about the faith, but keep these issues under their vest out of fear that others will view them as incomplete Christians. The problem with this situation is the questions will never be answered nor will the doubts be assuaged. The reality is that some questions and/or doubts can only be dealt with by thinking in new ways, and involve the ability to view an issue from more than one perspective. If a sincere Christian believes that others will reject him/her just because they do not meet with the social expectation that such questions should not even be raised, then that genuine believer may well wither on the vine, simply because part of their social definition of what a Christian is supposed to be like does not permit faltering faith or inconsistent belief.

 

Yet another issue keeping believers thinking inside the box is very obvious. The stark reality is more than a few of us are intellectually lazy. We don’t want to take the time or expend the mental energy necessary to grapple with the more complex issues of the faith. These are the folks with those bumper stickers that say: “The Bible says it; I believe it; end of story.” These are the folks who frequently nap through sermons and say “Amen” even during the announcements. They are quite content to let others do their thinking for them.

Emerson once said that "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." One of the things I think he meant by this statement was that, if you allow an external source to define your beliefs, you are often forced compromise the integrity of your mind in order to remain consistent with whatever the school of thought you might be identified with. For example, if you consider yourself to be a fundamentalist you readily understand that fundamentalists believe in the Virgin Birth. As a self-identified fundamentalist, you realize that you, too, should believe in the Virgin Birth. This state of affairs is no real problem unless you find that you don't really believe in the Virgin Birth. Now you have a dilemma on you hands. The way many folks solve this conundrum is to either say that they do, in fact, believe in the Virgin Birth when they really don't or they convince themselves they believe in it, even if they don't. The result is the person in question has compromised the integrity of his or her mind. In order to be consistent with a pre-defined worldview, the person claims to or pretends to believe in something he or she does not believe in.

 

The other end of the theological perspective has equal problems. Let's say you are a very liberal Christian. You have read Spong, Borg, Crossan, Tillich, and all the right authors. Of course, liberals don't believe in the deity of Jesus, at least most of them don't. But what happens if you discover that you do believe in the deity of Jesus. Well, now you have the same problem as the fundamentalist discussed in the previous paragraph. In order to be consistent with what a liberal is supposed to believe, you compromise and even convince yourself that Jesus was just another "great moral teacher" and your problem is solved. Unfortunately, now you have a bigger problem. Your integrity is gone.

 

I can speak of these issues with a certain amount of certainty and at least a modicum of clarity because I have, as they say, been there - done that. By the grace of God, there came a time when I got fed up with having others determine the content of my worldview and went on a quest to figure out just what it was that I really did believe. I won't bore you with the details of my search except to say that as things progressed, I felt more at ease because I understood what I actually thought was true, rather than trying to force myself into a pair of theological shoes that were designed for someone else.

 

I would also say that it is important to know that I full well understand that I am really quite limited in the scope of my knowledge. William Barclay, the great biblical scholar, once said he had, at best, a "second-rate mind." I have read extensively in Barclay's works and can say without reservation that if his mind is second-rate, then mine is surely way on down the scale in double-digits. I have come to understand that I can, in fact, be wrong. That is one reason why I don't involve myself in theological arguments or nitpick over the finer points of doctrine. What do I know? Further, for me to strongly insist that someone else has a view that is erroneous smells of arrogance when you get right down to it.

 

Some Christians feel they have been called to be "Watchmen on the Walls," beating the bushes in search of heretics and other misfits and nomads within the Body of Christ. Perhaps this is, indeed, a genuine calling and, if it is, I pray they live according to that lofty purpose. I am not one of them, however. I don't think I have ever labeled anyone a heretic and doubt that I ever will. Why not, you ask? The fact is, when you get down to the honest truth of the matter, I don't have enough knowledge to make that judgment. I am not giving you a false humility here. I am speaking from my heart. I, like many others, see through a glass darkly and have far too many doctrinal logs in my eye to start picking at the theological specks in someone else's.

 

Further, it is this very tendency on the part of these “Watchmen” that perhaps more than anything else creates that negative image described earlier. It is, more often than not, these self-styled defenders of doctrinal purity that are the most vocal and get the most press. This is a shame, really. These fanatics do not represent Christianity as a whole, but often the media will latch on to these extremists because they are just that – extreme.

 

When the church, no matter what denomination or affiliation, refuses to consider alternative ways of looking at things, it is setting its members up for both frustration and increasing social isolation. This is the process whereby the Body of Christ has become increasingly irrelevant in post-modern times. Historically, nothing good comes out of this. Take the case of Galileo and the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church fought hard against Galileo’s idea that the sun, not the earth, was the center of the Solar System. This great scientist was eventually relegated to the periphery of his church and his faith and faced excommunication, all because he entertained a new, strange idea.

 

Of course, Galileo was eventually proved to be correct. Within a relatively short span of years his ideas were so widely accepted that they were considered “mainstream” by all scientists. It should be noted, however, that it was not until 1992 that the Roman Catholic Church apologized to Galileo and admitted they were wrong. From this, it should not be hard to figure out why those outside Christian circles tend to have a tarnished view of the faith.

 

One other thing needs to be mentioned as well. Doctrinal and religious debates tend to get a bit testy. Rarely have I seen one of these discussions go on for long before folks start launching verbal grenades that have little to do with the point they were originally trying to make.

 

I avoid these discussions and debates like poison ivy for the following reasons. First, as already mentioned, my knowledge is too small for me to be the final arbiter of any doctrinal dispute. Secondly, these kinds of conflicts promote discord rather than unity, and it is unity we are called to, not discord. Finally, I stay away from doctrinal fights because these sorts of disputes often put people in the position of having a choice to be "right" or to be "kind." I'll opt for kindness every time.

 

L.D. Turner 2008/All Rights Reserved

Edited October 11, 2008 by Mick (see edit history)

[Dan R]

I have watched this thread from it's beginning and I must say that the overwhelming majority has no idea of what Christianity is really about. I can see that most here group Christianity solely as a religion. Indeed it is a religion but it is also a "relationship." That is, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't have a personal relationship with Christ then you can't really understand Christianity to it's fullest extent. Generally speaking, religion is people doing good works and deeds to gain the favor of God, or a god. A relationship with Christ is having Christ in your heart thus good works and deeds come from the inside out.

Cuzin Roggie freely admitted that he is not a Christian but came from a Christian upbringing. I think that is the case with many here. Many people associate Christianity with a set of laws to live by therefore rendering the term "Christianity" as a set of laws within the conscience to live by. If the "law" is what we solely live by then we are in a heep of trouble. Only through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ can we begin to really understand what these laws are all about. It's from the inside out, not from the outside in.

Very Well Said!!!!

 

I am reminded of the movie "Oh God" in which John Denver finally meets God (George Burns) face to face. Denver says, "But why did you pick me. I'm just a produce manager. I don't even belong to the church."

 

God responds: "Neither do I."

 

Doesn't "relationship" require believing he was more than a man? Once that is done it is religion. If you say it does not, I would be curious in what the relationship is.

[izus]

I am NOT a Christian but only have a Christian upbringing...

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... now I finally understand everything you post!

 

Good... Then you can 'splain it to me...

half of you got baptized with water and half with words... you have a split [religious] personality; half saint and half devil

Have you ever seen a badly translated Chinese restaurant menu?

Exactly WHO offically translated the bible in to Chinese language?

believe it or not there are Chinese religious translating scholars, my wife has a chinese translated bible that we have compared to the NIV it is almost word for word.

[Dan R]

I am NOT a Christian but only have a Christian upbringing...

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... now I finally understand everything you post!

 

Good... Then you can 'splain it to me...

half of you got baptized with water and half with words... you have a split [religious] personality; half saint and half devil

Have you ever seen a badly translated Chinese restaurant menu?

Exactly WHO offically translated the bible in to Chinese language?

believe it or not there are Chinese religious translating scholars, my wife has a chinese translated bible that we have compared to the NIV it is almost word for word.

 

Not strange at all since there are licensed churches

[chilton747]

I have watched this thread from it's beginning and I must say that the overwhelming majority has no idea of what Christianity is really about. I can see that most here group Christianity solely as a religion. Indeed it is a religion but it is also a "relationship." That is, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't have a personal relationship with Christ then you can't really understand Christianity to it's fullest extent. Generally speaking, religion is people doing good works and deeds to gain the favor of God, or a god. A relationship with Christ is having Christ in your heart thus good works and deeds come from the inside out.

Cuzin Roggie freely admitted that he is not a Christian but came from a Christian upbringing. I think that is the case with many here. Many people associate Christianity with a set of laws to live by therefore rendering the term "Christianity" as a set of laws within the conscience to live by. If the "law" is what we solely live by then we are in a heep of trouble. Only through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ can we begin to really understand what these laws are all about. It's from the inside out, not from the outside in.

Very Well Said!!!!

 

I am reminded of the movie "Oh God" in which John Denver finally meets God (George Burns) face to face. Denver says, "But why did you pick me. I'm just a produce manager. I don't even belong to the church."

 

God responds: "Neither do I."

 

Doesn't "relationship" require believing he was more than a man? Once that is done it is religion. If you say it does not, I would be curious in what the relationship is.

 

Dan I would be happy to discuss this with you in a PM if you want. I think the mods would prefer this.

[IllinoisDave]

Most Chinese are in a rural situation,and many intelligent country folks can still be a bit "superstitious",so they easily fall prey to fast talking city slickers.

How many times have you seen some country bumpkin in front of a Chinese bus station,getting duped in to that 3 card sidewalk gambling trick?

The oldest trick right out of an episode of The Three Stooges,yet there are an endless supply of "easy marks" flooding in from the farm ready to be taken.

 

There are just TOO MANY vulnerable people in China,uneducated rural folks.

Just replace the word "Chinese" with the word "American" and these sentiments would be just as accurate, to the extent that they are accurate,which is a whole other debate.

 

When we start tossing out words like superstitious,cult and duped as they relate to religion, China doesn't come close to cornering the market on people who are under the influence of things like this. In fact,based on a percentage of the entire population, those who have been "duped" by religious superstition or belong to religious "cults" is far higher here than in China IMHO.

[Guest jin979]

I have watched this thread from it's beginning and I must say that the overwhelming majority has no idea of what Christianity is really about. I can see that most here group Christianity solely as a religion. Indeed it is a religion but it is also a "relationship." That is, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't have a personal relationship with Christ then you can't really understand Christianity to it's fullest extent. Generally speaking, religion is people doing good works and deeds to gain the favor of God, or a god. A relationship with Christ is having Christ in your heart thus good works and deeds come from the inside out.

Cuzin Roggie freely admitted that he is not a Christian but came from a Christian upbringing. I think that is the case with many here. Many people associate Christianity with a set of laws to live by therefore rendering the term "Christianity" as a set of laws within the conscience to live by. If the "law" is what we solely live by then we are in a heep of trouble. Only through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ can we begin to really understand what these laws are all about. It's from the inside out, not from the outside in.

Very Well Said!!!!

 

I am reminded of the movie "Oh God" in which John Denver finally meets God (George Burns) face to face. Denver says, "But why did you pick me. I'm just a produce manager. I don't even belong to the church."

 

God responds: "Neither do I."

 

Doesn't "relationship" require believing he was more than a man? Once that is done it is religion. If you say it does not, I would be curious in what the relationship is.

 

Dan I would be happy to discuss this with you in a PM if you want. I think the mods would prefer this.

 

i like it here.

 

its good to talk about soul with others in open. I am Taoist you are christian each can learn from others. Good living and soul is from inside and behaviours .

[Jeikun]

I admittedly just got through the first 4 pages before posting. This thread is hilarious. I literally cracked up reading it. And even more funny is how it is completely pointless for me to try to say why it's funny. Some of you already know, the ones who don't wouldn't get it if I wrote 10 pages. So I won't waste anyone's time.

[IllinoisDave]

I admittedly just got through the first 4 pages before posting. This thread is hilarious. I literally cracked up reading it. And even more funny is how it is completely pointless for me to try to say why it's funny. Some of you already know, the ones who don't wouldn't get it if I wrote 10 pages. So I won't waste anyone's time.

Aw go ahead Jason. Judging from some of the threads lately, some folks are really into wasting a bunch of time.

[pkfops]

So basicly, Roger us going to start up his own church in an upper middle class developement in China and get is flock to fork over the 15%.

 

Sounds like easy money for the Rev. Roger.

 

That's a Win Win deal as everybody feels good all around.

[rogerluli]

So basicly, Roger us going to start up his own church in an upper middle class developement in China and get is flock to fork over the 15%.

 

Sounds like easy money for the Rev. Roger.

 

That's a Win Win deal as everybody feels good all around.

 

I have devoted my life to the fleecing of the flock...

Edited October 12, 2008 by rogerluli (see edit history)

[chilton747]

So basicly, Roger us going to start up his own church in an upper middle class developement in China and get is flock to fork over the 15%.

 

Sounds like easy money for the Rev. Roger.

 

That's a Win Win deal as everybody feels good all around.

 

I have devoted my life to the fleecing of the flock...

 

So the sheepes get a 5% increase?

[Sebastian]

Have you ever seen a badly translated Chinese restaurant menu?

Exactly WHO offically translated the bible in to Chinese language?

 

Depends on the year of publication AND the publishing house.

 

Reread the cover page of the one YOU have, lemme know what it says, I'll help you to track down exactly WHO did it, ok ?