China and CANDLE

[rogerluli]

Man, I'm glad I decided to come back for this one

 

As an old time China basher, I am amazed and amused by a lot of what is being posted here.

 

I could say a lot about China, but suffice it to say I will only say that although I love Ying dearly the vows and promises I swore to her were

 

For better or worse

Through sickness and health

Till death do us part

 

There wasn't anything promised about going back to China and she knows that ain't gonna happen. So . . .

 

And Oh, by the way, my respect for the two opposed outspoken members of this thread has not diminished one iota.

 

Keep the faith boys!

 

Love ya,

Steve

 

Thanks for dropping in Steve...Stop in more often to tell us about the China you know and "love"...

[rogerluli]

Thanks for dropping in Steve...Stop in more often to tell us about the China you know and "love"...

Rodger, I intend to hang out for a while, if things here (CFL in general) are healthy for my cyberpsyche.

 

Things got a little out of hand for a sensitive guy like me so I trolled (innocuously of course) for a little.

 

But hey, you're right, this board needs an opposing view to counterbalance the things about China that make even Ying laugh and shake her head in disbelief.

 

Love is all you need,

Steve

 

All is good Steve...People should go back and read the very top of the page in the statement and guidelines thingie...

 

 

WELCOME, EVERYONE...

[rogerluli]

Ah I caught Don reading this...Hey Don can I lock this thingie and put us all out of our misery...

[rogerluli]

Ah I caught Don reading this...Hey Don can I lock this thingie and put us all out of our misery...

Your call, Rog. Like any of the mods, the decision is yours. If I disagree, we would chat offline.

 

CHAT???

 

Well I think it serves no useful purpose although there have been some excellent posts... So let's let it go for awhile and see if it turns north or south...

[IllinoisDave]

And then there are those who consider the way they present their views to be the only "serious" way to discuss China and all things Chinese.

 

Dave, I'm all for any discussion you want to bring forth about China. This thread is probably not the best place to do it as it was izus who originally opened it. He took the time to write his thoughts and feelings. It's clear you and a few others disagree with him. Nothing wrong with that, not a thing. Invoking discussion is healthy, but it takes effort to keep things civil. I can relate completely with what izus has to say, as I can with what you say here.

 

I honestly consider a reasonable discourse about China a good thing for all of us. From my perspective, there are wonderful things happening in China. That is in the face of all the challenges facing this country as it is experiencing growing pains. I've not seen anyone disagree that China has dirty streets and air, unsafe water to drink, government corruption, and so on. Most everyone has been here at least once and personally witnessed it.

 

Bill (izus) is a good human being. He's a good husband to his wife. He loves and cares about her and her homeland. There are a lot of negative issues that one can bring forth about China; and if that is what you and others enjoy discussing, so be it. Please exercise restraint however when someone see an endless sea of threads presenting China in a negative light. No; I'm not talking about "China bashing." That phrase is much too harsh for what I see happening. What I mean a remarkable lack of something good to say about the country. I've seen several posts that discuss the cleaner air and streets now happening in Beijing. It's great to see. But for some reason, there are many that don't think it will last. Will it? I believe it will because I see the passion of the people who are responsible for making it this clean right now.

First let me say that I agree wholeheartedly with what you said Jesse about Bill being a good human being and husband. And I know the same can be said of you. That's very apparent in both of your posts here, as it is with just about everyone at Candle. And I don't think it's any less true for those of us who occasionally point out the negative aspects of China or the US.

 

As for this not being the place for the discussion? Bill opened the discussion. He didn't say in his OP "I'd like to say something about the way people discuss China here but I don't want any discussion about it." He made reference to the relative happiness of people and their lives based on what they say here, "maybe CANDLE is the outlet for them to complain about life and how miserable they are" was his exact quote. I take issue with that and I said so in what I don't consider to be an uncivil way.

 

I'm glad we agree on whether what's said here is actually China bashing or not. The problem as I see it is that someone can say 20 positive things about China and not be noticed. But point out one negative fact and the hounds are unleashed. Talk about people being defensive? There's just an incredible misconception among the more rabid China defenders that if someone says one negative thing about China, they're bashers that have nothing but contempt for China. And that's simply not the case.

 

I'm sorry Jesse but I just don't see an "endless sea" of threads that portray China in a negative light. What I see are people posting articles about what's happening in China that they think may interest others. Some deal with the efforts to clean Beijing up for the Olympics and some deal with corruption and bribery. As I know you're well aware being there now, both are realities of today's China.

 

I don't think it's unfair for people to vigorously come to China's defense when they see something they consider to be negative. I do, however, think it's unfair for them to make judgements about the lives of the people making the posts they don't like.

[IllinoisDave]

I've never read anything here that I thought was "China bashing"...People do come here to express criticisms and point out China's flaws...And that is one of the reasons we are here and that is the way it is going to stay...

Is this a joke? What planet are you from? Curious minds want to know.

Instead of just posting a flippant personal attack why don't you search around for some examples of "China bashing" to try and back up your view and then we can have a discussion as to whether it's actually bashing or just people expressing criticisms and pointing out China's flaws as Rog suggests.

 

Or would that be too much curiosity for your planet?

Here we go again!!! I have left you alone to say whatever Leftsided veiw you want to say. Now you are PERSONALLY attacking me again. HEY DON, you don't see this!!!

Why don't you go and get a real life instead of hiding behind your computer for 23 hours a day on Candle!

NWRT

[IllinoisDave]

Just because someone posts a view,whether fact or opinion, that doesn't coincide with yours doesn't make it China bashing. Just because it's something that you don't particularly want to hear or believe doesn't make it China bashing.

 

Posting negative things about China should be totally different from slandering, or attacking China. But unfortunatelly, some people here do say a lot of things which are either they got from their short term stay in China or just from their bias view. You just cant take a tree for forest. That is China bashing.

 

 

I'm a realist. I prefer to deal in facts and reality rather than fiction and fantasy.

 

By the way, you are not a realist. A realist is one who is either a painter or writer. You are a pragmatist.

I agree, slander and baseless attacks on China have no place on Candle. And I think those things are very few and far between and certainly haven't gone on in the most recents discussion IMHO. Our definitions of those may differ. If you it happens often, maybe you can post some examples so we know what your defintion is and can discuss it.

 

BTW, there are multiple definitions of realist. Not all have to do with painting and writing. So I'll continue to define my own outlook on life as I choose, OK.

[IllinoisDave]

Man, I'm glad I decided to come back for this one

 

As an old time China basher, I am amazed and amused by a lot of what is being posted here.

 

I could say a lot about China, but suffice it to say I will only say that although I love Ying dearly the vows and promises I swore to her were

 

For better or worse

Through sickness and health

Till death do us part

 

There wasn't anything promised about going back to China and she knows that ain't gonna happen. So . . .

 

And Oh, by the way, my respect for the two opposed outspoken members of this thread has not diminished one iota.

 

Keep the faith boys!

 

Love ya,

Steve

Steve, it's nice to see ya again my friend. I hope all is well with you and Ying.

 

You are missed here. Don't be a stranger.

[rogerluli]

And then there are those who consider the way they present their views to be the only "serious" way to discuss China and all things Chinese.

 

Dave, I'm all for any discussion you want to bring forth about China. This thread is probably not the best place to do it as it was izus who originally opened it. He took the time to write his thoughts and feelings. It's clear you and a few others disagree with him. Nothing wrong with that, not a thing. Invoking discussion is healthy, but it takes effort to keep things civil. I can relate completely with what izus has to say, as I can with what you say here.

 

I honestly consider a reasonable discourse about China a good thing for all of us. From my perspective, there are wonderful things happening in China. That is in the face of all the challenges facing this country as it is experiencing growing pains. I've not seen anyone disagree that China has dirty streets and air, unsafe water to drink, government corruption, and so on. Most everyone has been here at least once and personally witnessed it.

 

Bill (izus) is a good human being. He's a good husband to his wife. He loves and cares about her and her homeland. There are a lot of negative issues that one can bring forth about China; and if that is what you and others enjoy discussing, so be it. Please exercise restraint however when someone see an endless sea of threads presenting China in a negative light. No; I'm not talking about "China bashing." That phrase is much too harsh for what I see happening. What I mean a remarkable lack of something good to say about the country. I've seen several posts that discuss the cleaner air and streets now happening in Beijing. It's great to see. But for some reason, there are many that don't think it will last. Will it? I believe it will because I see the passion of the people who are responsible for making it this clean right now.

First let me say that I agree wholeheartedly with what you said Jesse about Bill being a good human being and husband. And I know the same can be said of you. That's very apparent in both of your posts here, as it is with just about everyone at Candle. And I don't think it's any less true for those of us who occasionally point out the negative aspects of China or the US.

 

As for this not being the place for the discussion? Bill opened the discussion. He didn't say in his OP "I'd like to say something about the way people discuss China here but I don't want any discussion about it." He made reference to the relative happiness of people and their lives based on what they say here, "maybe CANDLE is the outlet for them to complain about life and how miserable they are" was his exact quote. I take issue with that and I said so in what I don't consider to be an uncivil way.

 

I'm glad we agree on whether what's said here is actually China bashing or not. The problem as I see it is that someone can say 20 positive things about China and not be noticed. But point out one negative fact and the hounds are unleashed. Talk about people being defensive? There's just an incredible misconception among the more rabid China defenders that if someone says one negative thing about China, they're bashers that have nothing but contempt for China. And that's simply not the case.

 

I'm sorry Jesse but I just don't see an "endless sea" of threads that portray China in a negative light. What I see are people posting articles about what's happening in China that they think may interest others. Some deal with the efforts to clean Beijing up for the Olympics and some deal with corruption and bribery. As I know you're well aware being there now, both are realities of today's China.

 

I don't think it's unfair for people to vigorously come to China's defense when they see something they consider to be negative. I do, however, think it's unfair for them to make judgements about the lives of the people making the posts they don't like.

 

Just one correction... Bill's thread was after all in response to my "You Sir...' Thread. He must have thought I was bashing China yet again and had to set the record straight... Why does someone start another thread on the same topic you ask??? Golly I wish I knew the answer to that...

[rogerluli]

I've never read anything here that I thought was "China bashing"...People do come here to express criticisms and point out China's flaws...And that is one of the reasons we are here and that is the way it is going to stay...

Is this a joke? What planet are you from? Curious minds want to know.

Instead of just posting a flippant personal attack why don't you search around for some examples of "China bashing" to try and back up your view and then we can have a discussion as to whether it's actually bashing or just people expressing criticisms and pointing out China's flaws as Rog suggests.

 

Or would that be too much curiosity for your planet?

Here we go again!!! I have left you alone to say whatever Leftsided veiw you want to say. Now you are PERSONALLY attacking me again. HEY DON, you don't see this!!!

Why don't you go and get a real life instead of hiding behind your computer for 23 hours a day on Candle!

NWRT

 

I think we should start an acronym forum...

 

Acronym Definition

NWRT National Weather Radar Testbed

NWRT National Women's Round Table

NWRT Nawkaw Water Repellant Treatment

NWRT Near-Wall particle Residence Time

NWRT Nederlandse Werkgroep van Reïncarnatietherapeuten

NWRT Non-Word Repetition Tasks

NWRT Nonwhite Region Tiling

NWRT North West Rockall Trough

NWRT North West Rural Tourism (Ireland)

NWRT Northwest Regional Training

NWRT Nuclear Weapons-Related Technologies

NWRT Nuclear Wire Repair Tape

NWRT Nunavut Wildlife Research Trust

[Dennis143]

Ah I caught Don reading this...Hey Don can I lock this thingie and put us all out of our misery...

I vote to just put one member out of his misery...the one who's made two personal attacks in this thread, so far.

[shushuweiwei]

T I didn't remember much sufferings, or I tend to forget sufferings easily.

 

 

 

Joanne,

 

All women's brains are wired to forget suffering easily. Otherwise women would have created "one child policy" long before China!"

 

Joe

[shushuweiwei]

Ah I caught Don reading this...Hey Don can I lock this thingie and put us all out of our misery...

I vote to just put one member out of his misery...the one who's made two personal attacks in this thread, so far.

It does seem to be getting ungentlemanly.

I'm not a christian or a jew but I have read their books in all their various permutations. If I'm not mistaken that "Old" book starts off with a very chen (zen) story. There is a warning not to ingest into oneself the fruit of a tree called "the knowledge of good and evil." I believe some presumably wise being says that if ingested you will go from "paradise" into various unpleasantries such as sweating to plow the lands and having pain with childbirth, along with engaging in long, sometimes ungentlemanly discussions on CFL. (really, I think it says that)

 

We all have our unpleasant side, as do our countries. To discuss them is not neccesarily disloyal or incorrect. For those who must file everything under good or evil, that compulsion will lead them to talk of China bashing and unfairness.

 

Let our observations of China or America be what they are, our observations. No one needs to force them into categories of good or evil. Like most of us, my observations of this huge, diverse country are limited to a few large cities and one small city. Many of you have spent much more time in China than I.

 

We have all seen things that others have not. Good? Bad? Who gives a ...? The power of listening without judging gives us all an opportunity to learn more deeply about the vast country that nurtured our SOs. If you feel the compulsion to put everyone's observations into good or bad, that is the listener's problem and choice. It isn't China's problem or the observers problem. Maybe the observer chose to call it good or bad. Do you really believe a single human posting on CFL can impose goodness or badness on China? It is just another person who has eaten that fruit.

 

If you find it upsetting to hear a negative comment about China, that information tells us about you and not about China. There will always be deluded people who feel, for whatever reason, that they know China. We might consider just chuckling and moving on.

 

I am a buddhist and there is a story in buddhism of the western buddhist scholar who travels to China to meet with a great sage. He is invited into the sages home and immediately launches into questions and commentaries on his understanding of buddhist thought. The sage merely asks if he'll join him in having tea. As the scholar goes on and on the monk hands him a cup and pours his tea, and pours, and pours, and pours. When the hot tea overflows and burns the mans hands he cries out at the monk, "What are you doing, you crazy old man?!"

 

The monk tells him this cup is like you, so full that no new tea can enter. Being so full of what you think you know, you are incapable of learning anything about buddhism. It is said that at this moment the scholar began to understand buddhism for the first time.

 

Can we empty ourselves of what we think we know about China?

Can we empty ourselves of preconceptions and approach everyone's posts about China with beginner's mind?

 

For those who can't there is only one respoinse - compassion.

For those who can, let the learning begin!

Edited July 27, 2008 by shushuweiwei (see edit history)

[Li & John]

It is obvious that saying anything here on CFL there will be personal attacks. This used to be a good forum but as I can see now it is just a Leftsided Liberal Forum. Like I said time and time again, there are certain members that think they know everything but know nothing at all!

Again I said my peace, just venting!!!

 

Later, I got things to do now.

[Guest lilac6451]

Ah I caught Don reading this...Hey Don can I lock this thingie and put us all out of our misery...

I vote to just put one member out of his misery...the one who's made two personal attacks in this thread, so far.

 

Just let people speak, ok? I didnt see any attack on any person. Learn to be tough and you will be fine. The only kind of persons I cant stand is name calling ones, who are the ones should have been put out of their miseries.

Edited July 27, 2008 by lilac6451 (see edit history)