China and CANDLE

[rogerluli]

Ah I caught Don reading this...Hey Don can I lock this thingie and put us all out of our misery...

I vote to just put one member out of his misery...the one who's made two personal attacks in this thread, so far.

It does seem to be getting ungentlemanly.

I'm not a christian or a jew but I have read their books in all their various permutations. If I'm not mistaken that "Old" book starts off with a very chen (zen) story. There is a warning not to ingest into oneself the fruit of a tree called "the knowledge of good and evil." I believe some presumably wise being says that if ingested you will go from "paradise" into various unpleasantries such as sweating to plow the lands and having pain with childbirth, along with engaging in long, sometimes ungentlemanly discussions on CFL. (really, I think it says that)

 

We all have our unpleasant side, as do our countries. To discuss them is not neccesarily disloyal or incorrect. For those who must file everything under good or evil, that compulsion will lead them to talk of China bashing and unfairness.

 

Let our observations of China or America be what they are, our observations. No one needs to force them into categories of good or evil. Like most of us, my observations of this huge, diverse country are limited to a few large cities and one small city. Many of you have spent much more time in China than I.

 

We have all seen things that others have not. Good? Bad? Who gives a ...? The power of listening without judging gives us all an opportunity to learn more deeply about the vast country that nurtured our SOs. If you feel the compulsion to put everyone's observations into good or bad, that is the listener's problem and choice. It isn't China's problem or the observers problem. Maybe the observer chose to call it good or bad. Do you really believe a single human posting on CFL can impose goodness or badness on China? It is just another person who has eaten that fruit.

 

If you find it upsetting to hear a negative comment about China, that information tells us about you and not about China. There will always be deluded people who feel, for whatever reason, that they know China. We might consider just chuckling and moving on.

 

I am a buddhist and there is a story in buddhism of the western buddhist scholar who travels to China to meet with a great sage. He is invited into the sages home and immediately launches into questions and commentaries on his understanding of buddhist thought. The sage merely asks if he'll join him in having tea. As the scholar goes on and on the monk hands him a cup and pours his tea, and pours, and pours, and pours. When the hot tea overflows and burns the mans hands he cries out at the monk, "What are you doing, you crazy old man?!"

 

The monk tells him this cup is like you, so full that no new tea can enter. Being so full of what you think you know, you are incapable of learning anything about buddhism. It is said that at this moment the scholar began to understand buddhism for the first time.

 

Can we empty ourselves of what we think we know about China?

Can we empty ourselves of preconceptions and approach everyone's posts about China with beginner's mind?

 

For those who can't there is only one respoinse - compassion.

For those who can, let the learning begin!

 

Excellent, excellent post...

[Sebastian]

**yawn** - is this thing still on? anyone reading here still ? Who wants a personal attack today? It's sunday, and I'm feeling spunky.

[shushuweiwei]

It is obvious that saying anything here on CFL there will be personal attacks. This used to be a good forum but as I can see now it is just a Leftsided Liberal Forum. Like I said time and time again, there are certain members that think they know everything but know nothing at all!

Again I said my peace, just venting!!!

 

Later, I got things to do now.

 

Ah, compassion.

 

Was it Dave who spoke of being a reality-based, pragmatic, realist? I, myself, am a reality-based cubist, but to each his own!.

 

Obviously, the statements made here are so obviously false that the poster could have only posted this to magnify the point about the issue that causes the problem being discussed. I think he did a masterful job.

 

We could all take a moment to reality test our ideas before posting. So many problems could be avoided! We can all see, I think , how this poster has skillfully packaged all the errors into one brief post as a lesson to us all.

 

We can see that if one just took a moment to ask yourself if these statements have even the remotest possibility of being true (Anything one posts? Let's go find the personal attack in Toplaws thread "This is so good...") or if you are writing about CFL or yourself (CFL is bad because some people hold liberal or progressive views that differ from mine?), you probably would have realized that what you were about to post couldn't possibly bear any relationship to reality, and one might have refrained.

 

If one had reality tested those two ideas, then they would have likely realized who they were talking about (projecting) when they mentioned members who think they know everything!

 

If all of us were to do this before we post, we could dramatically increase the percentage of posts that were on topic and dramatically decrease the number of posts that were merely expressions of our own non-reality-based prejudices, about China, et al.

 

I think this poster is a genius for showing us so much in such a brief post and I hope we all take the lesson he is offering.

[IllinoisDave]

It is obvious that saying anything here on CFL there will be personal attacks. This used to be a good forum but as I can see now it is just a Leftsided Liberal Forum. Like I said time and time again, there are certain members that think they know everything but know nothing at all!

Again I said my peace, just venting!!!

 

Later, I got things to do now.

 

Ah, compassion.

 

Was it Dave who spoke of being a reality-based, pragmatic, realist? I, myself, am a reality-based cubist, but to each his own!.

 

Obviously, the statements made here are so obviously false that the poster could have only posted this to magnify the point about the issue that causes the problem being discussed. I think he did a masterful job.

 

We could all take a moment to reality test our ideas before posting. So many problems could be avoided! We can all see, I think , how this poster has skillfully packaged all the errors into one brief post as a lesson to us all.

 

We can see that if one just took a moment to ask yourself if these statements have even the remotest possibility of being true (Anything one posts? Let's go find the personal attack in Toplaws thread "This is so good...") or if you are writing about CFL or yourself (CFL is bad because some people hold liberal or progressive views that differ from mine?), you probably would have realized that what you were about to post couldn't possibly bear any relationship to reality, and one might have refrained.

 

If one had reality tested those two ideas, then they would have likely realized who they were talking about (projecting) when they mentioned members who think they know everything!

 

If all of us were to do this before we post, we could dramatically increase the percentage of posts that were on topic and dramatically decrease the number of posts that were merely expressions of our own non-reality-based prejudices, about China, et al.

 

I think this poster is a genius for showing us so much in such a brief post and I hope we all take the lesson he is offering.

Well said. Much better than APNWRT, which is what I considered posting.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

 

I am not saying China is all good. I just didn't like to discuss all the bad things, particularly if the discussion doesn't provide any value. For example, if your sister has an ugly birthmark on her face, would you feel comfortable that a friend come to you and point out that fact to you?

 

Does your friend need to prove to you that he/she is not blind? However, if you give advice to friends, such as, when in China, don't drink tab water; guard your wallet at all times; wash your hand delegently before handling food and when get home, etc, there are some value there.

 

Then, some things western media were saying about China and most Americans buy are just absurd to us who grew up in China. That's when most Chinese would jump out and shout "cann't be true".

 

Above are just some random thoughts after reading Bill's great post and the thread.

 

...Thank's for sharing Joanne....

[Guest lilac6451]

 

I am not saying China is all good. I just didn't like to discuss all the bad things, particularly if the discussion doesn't provide any value. For example, if your sister has an ugly birthmark on her face, would you feel comfortable that a friend come to you and point out that fact to you?

 

Does your friend need to prove to you that he/she is not blind? However, if you give advice to friends, such as, when in China, don't drink tab water; guard your wallet at all times; wash your hand delegently before handling food and when get home, etc, there are some value there.

 

Then, some things western media were saying about China and most Americans buy are just absurd to us who grew up in China. That's when most Chinese would jump out and shout "cann't be true".

 

Above are just some random thoughts after reading Bill's great post and the thread.

 

...Thank's for sharing Joanne....

 

Well said

[Guest Mike and Lily]

People from the USA tend to base their opinions about China by comparing China with the USA. That is a mistake. Most of the Chinese could care less about some of the things that we think are problems with China. If we want to criticize China, criticize them for the things that the vase majority of the country believe as problems, not what we perceive as problems based upon our own personal beliefs.

[Li & John]

People from the USA tend to base their opinions about China by comparing China with the USA. That is a mistake. Most of the Chinese could care less about some of the things that we think are problems with China. If we want to criticize China, criticize them for the things that the vase majority of the country believe as problems, not what we perceive as problems based upon our own personal beliefs.

My wife and I Can't agree with you more.

[Li & John]

It is obvious that saying anything here on CFL there will be personal attacks. This used to be a good forum but as I can see now it is just a Leftsided Liberal Forum. Like I said time and time again, there are certain members that think they know everything but know nothing at all!

Again I said my peace, just venting!!!

 

Later, I got things to do now.

 

Ah, compassion.

 

Was it Dave who spoke of being a reality-based, pragmatic, realist? I, myself, am a reality-based cubist, but to each his own!.

 

Obviously, the statements made here are so obviously false that the poster could have only posted this to magnify the point about the issue that causes the problem being discussed. I think he did a masterful job.

 

We could all take a moment to reality test our ideas before posting. So many problems could be avoided! We can all see, I think , how this poster has skillfully packaged all the errors into one brief post as a lesson to us all.

 

We can see that if one just took a moment to ask yourself if these statements have even the remotest possibility of being true (Anything one posts? Let's go find the personal attack in Toplaws thread "This is so good...") or if you are writing about CFL or yourself (CFL is bad because some people hold liberal or progressive views that differ from mine?), you probably would have realized that what you were about to post couldn't possibly bear any relationship to reality, and one might have refrained.

 

If one had reality tested those two ideas, then they would have likely realized who they were talking about (projecting) when they mentioned members who think they know everything!

 

If all of us were to do this before we post, we could dramatically increase the percentage of posts that were on topic and dramatically decrease the number of posts that were merely expressions of our own non-reality-based prejudices, about China, et al.

 

I think this poster is a genius for showing us so much in such a brief post and I hope we all take the lesson he is offering.

This is what I am talking about. I rest my case.

[Li & John]

It is obvious that saying anything here on CFL there will be personal attacks. This used to be a good forum but as I can see now it is just a Leftsided Liberal Forum. Like I said time and time again, there are certain members that think they know everything but know nothing at all!

Again I said my peace, just venting!!!

 

Later, I got things to do now.

 

Ah, compassion.

 

Was it Dave who spoke of being a reality-based, pragmatic, realist? I, myself, am a reality-based cubist, but to each his own!.

 

Obviously, the statements made here are so obviously false that the poster could have only posted this to magnify the point about the issue that causes the problem being discussed. I think he did a masterful job.

 

We could all take a moment to reality test our ideas before posting. So many problems could be avoided! We can all see, I think , how this poster has skillfully packaged all the errors into one brief post as a lesson to us all.

 

We can see that if one just took a moment to ask yourself if these statements have even the remotest possibility of being true (Anything one posts? Let's go find the personal attack in Toplaws thread "This is so good...") or if you are writing about CFL or yourself (CFL is bad because some people hold liberal or progressive views that differ from mine?), you probably would have realized that what you were about to post couldn't possibly bear any relationship to reality, and one might have refrained.

 

If one had reality tested those two ideas, then they would have likely realized who they were talking about (projecting) when they mentioned members who think they know everything!

 

If all of us were to do this before we post, we could dramatically increase the percentage of posts that were on topic and dramatically decrease the number of posts that were merely expressions of our own non-reality-based prejudices, about China, et al.

 

I think this poster is a genius for showing us so much in such a brief post and I hope we all take the lesson he is offering.

Well said. Much better than APNWRT, which is what I considered posting.

There are no words to describe this poster.

[IllinoisDave]

People from the USA tend to base their opinions about China by comparing China with the USA. That is a mistake. Most of the Chinese could care less about some of the things that we think are problems with China. If we want to criticize China, criticize them for the things that the vase majority of the country believe as problems, not what we perceive as problems based upon our own personal beliefs.

Thanks for the suggestion Mike. Or is it an order? But I'll pass.

 

Using your criteria we couldn't criticize any other government, no matter how tyrannical or threatening to others, as long as the vast majority of it's citizens thought it's despotism or threat to others was OK. Or no matter how informed or ill-informed that citizenry is about the actions of it's government.

 

I'm not saying China is tyrannical or a threat to others. I'm saying that if we follow your suggestion/order and only use what the vast majority of a country's citizens consider to be a problem to criticize that government, then that leaves little to criticize some of them over.

Edited July 27, 2008 by IllinoisDave (see edit history)

[Guest Mike and Lily]

People from the USA tend to base their opinions about China by comparing China with the USA. That is a mistake. Most of the Chinese could care less about some of the things that we think are problems with China. If we want to criticize China, criticize them for the things that the vase majority of the country believe as problems, not what we perceive as problems based upon our own personal beliefs.

Thanks for the suggestion Mike. Or is it an order? But I'll pass.

 

Using your criteria we couldn't criticize any other government, no matter how tyrannical or threatening to others, as long as the vast majority of it's citizens thought it's despotism or threat to others was OK. Or no matter how informed or ill-informed that citizenry is about the actions of it's government.

 

I'm not saying China is tyrannical or a threat to others. I'm saying that if we follow your suggestion/order and only use what the vast majority of a country's citizens consider to be a problem to criticize that government, then that leaves little to criticize some of them over.

 

Actually, I was referring to internal government policies, not imperialistic tendencies or external nation building.

 

But that's an interesting philosophy Dave. Let me get this straight. If a government has the support of the vast majority of it's citizens, and they don't have internal policies that many people in the USA agree with, the people of that country are deserving of criticism for not opposing the government, and the government is deserving of criticism for not implementing policies that those same people in the USA would want to be implemented. A government that doesn't generally act in ways that the majority of it's citizens believe it should would be tyrannical, wouldn't you agree Dave?

[Dennis143]

The only kind of persons I cant stand is name calling ones, who are the ones should have been put out of their miseries.

Good, we agree. I count 3, so far...

 

What planet are you from? Curious minds want to know.

 

Why don't you go and get a real life instead of hiding behind your computer for 23 hours a day on Candle!

 

There are no words to describe this poster.

 

[Randy W]

The silliness is rapidly compounding here. No one (no entity) gets to choose what they're being criticized for, although sometimes it does come from within.

[IllinoisDave]

People from the USA tend to base their opinions about China by comparing China with the USA. That is a mistake. Most of the Chinese could care less about some of the things that we think are problems with China. If we want to criticize China, criticize them for the things that the vase majority of the country believe as problems, not what we perceive as problems based upon our own personal beliefs.

Thanks for the suggestion Mike. Or is it an order? But I'll pass.

 

Using your criteria we couldn't criticize any other government, no matter how tyrannical or threatening to others, as long as the vast majority of it's citizens thought it's despotism or threat to others was OK. Or no matter how informed or ill-informed that citizenry is about the actions of it's government.

 

I'm not saying China is tyrannical or a threat to others. I'm saying that if we follow your suggestion/order and only use what the vast majority of a country's citizens consider to be a problem to criticize that government, then that leaves little to criticize some of them over.

 

Actually, I was referring to internal government policies, not imperialistic tendencies or external nation building.

 

But that's an interesting philosophy Dave. Let me get this straight. If a government has the support of the vast majority of it's citizens, and they don't have internal policies that many people in the USA agree with, the people of that country are deserving of criticism for not opposing the government, and the government is deserving of criticism for not implementing policies that those same people in the USA would want to be implemented. A government that doesn't generally act in ways that the majority of it's citizens believe it should would be tyrannical, wouldn't you agree Dave?

I see your point. I may have chosen my words poorly. And maybe we could get into a big discussion of tyranny vs tyranny of the majority but none of that is really all that germaine to what I was trying to say. So I'll just try to more clearly state my position relevant to your previous post.

 

I will not feel obligated to constrict my posting to the criteria you've suggested. I hope that simplifies it.