"Evolution of Relationship" letter

[georgeandli]

No reason for me to suck up tsap. From the heart, you've been hosed. Do what you must! 300 days to deny? Sorry to highjack the thread.

[Guest Rob & Jin]

if you want a updated evolution letter to be seen and read, do what I did take it to CH before the interview day to get it notarized.

 

It disappeared for 15 minutes, my guess read and copied.

 

 

I concur with Roger in that most of the assessment is done before the interview, by numerous people, the VO simply reviews and asks a few questions.

 

If however there are any concerns (right or wrong) then the interview can be a different animal.

 

For example they seem to have a uncanny way of asking" are you a member of the CCP ?" to those who are/were, but not to those who never were.

 

They asked jin how many visits " she replied 3, vo looked at passport, then Jin showed UK passport with 1st visit, he smiled and said " OH, haha I see now".

He asked to see my pay stubs as well as returns , as 2007 was my first year filing singly.

 

This all implies to me that they have assessed and reviewed each file very closely.

 

On the other hand interviews can simply go bad and like any process/investigation mistakes can and do happen.

 

People are wrongly accused and many times wrongly convicted of things they did not do.

 

I agree with Roger, the key here is "preparation, reading, concise and careful documentation" load up of your strengths give them no reason to doubt, present that first.

 

This is JMHO,from a year of careful observations.

[rogerinca]

rogerinca and bro tsap seui, I only speak from MY experience with GUZ. I wasn't with Lao Po when she made her 4 trips there before I was there for the last one. The files are gone over beforehand. What "they" are looking for changes like the wind. I truly hope the best for all that file. The point I am trying to make is this isn't like getting a fishing license. It is a crap shoot. You can have all the paperwork in order and get someone on an off day... BLUE.

 

 

Each can, of course, have their own opinion.

 

However, I will never subscribe to the 'crap-shoot' philosophy.

 

The facts and the numbers do not support that at all, IMO.

 

 

Fraud....is this one of the [many] petitions for the money only.

 

Candor....no attempt to hide material facts; both on the part of the petitioner and/or the benficiary.

 

IMBRA....it is a reality, like its provisions or not.

 

Financials.....adequate income and evidence the beneficiary will not end up on the welfare roles. Also as an adjunct, tax scoff with IRS and/or DHHS shit list.

 

Domicile....in the US and can demonstrate.

[tsap seui]

rogerinca and bro tsap seui, I only speak from MY experience with GUZ. I wasn't with Lao Po when she made her 4 trips there before I was there for the last one. The files are gone over beforehand. What "they" are looking for changes like the wind. I truly hope the best for all that file. The point I am trying to make is this isn't like getting a fishing license. It is a crap shoot. You can have all the paperwork in order and get someone on an off day... BLUE.

 

 

Each can, of course, have their own opinion.

 

However, I will never subscribe to the 'crap-shoot' philosophy.

 

The facts and the numbers do not support that at all, IMO. B)

 

 

Fraud....is this one of the [many] petitions for the money only.

 

Candor....no attempt to hide material facts; both on the part of the petitioner and/or the benficiary.

 

IMBRA....it is a reality, like its provisions or not.

 

Financials.....adequate income and evidence the beneficiary will not end up on the welfare roles. Also as an adjunct, tax scoff with IRS and/or DHHS shit list.

 

Domicile....in the US and can demonstrate.

 

 

If the only "facts and numbers" I had were what is "posted" on Candle I'd agree with ya Roger, that it isn't a crap shoot.

 

Unfortunately that's not THE REAL CASE, as I have, again unfortunately, the PM's to prove you completely wrong...and that's just from the first of this year.

 

I applaud you for your preparedness with the front loading and all, but, many had already done that... and more, both, before and after you did it.

 

No one will every see a post where I asked lurkers on Candle to send me storys of their blue and white slips, yet, my PM box has as many failures at the interview this year as we have seen successes posted on Candle.

 

The PM's are from lukers looking for help on what the hell to do next. I've often wished I had never talked about our blue slip when I look at that sad PM box. And most all of them were just as prepared for the interview as you. I well know I was.

 

I was in Guangzhou too, almost two weeks early for the interview, I took morning walks and watched the crowds line up. Generally there were 150-200 women in the que for the K-1, K-3, CR-1 line each and every day. And most of those women only had a little 1/4 inch to as big as a 1/2inch plastic bag of evidence for their interview. Lots of preparation there, yet I saw some of them walking out with smiles...MAYBE...they knew just exactly what interview questions the VO was gonna ask them that day and they didn't want to have to be bothered carryin' around anything extra in good ol' hot muggy dirty Guangzhou or maybe they were just lucky.

 

Let's take ACH....when I went to ACH the room was packed with Chinese women and 4 american men (counting myself). You think the Chinese women were there to ask a few questions about their american man's up coming interview?

 

Nope, they were there turning in overcome evidence from blue slips, or turning in their passports to see if their overcome evidence had gotten them a pink slip, just as 3 of us 4 american men were looking for.

 

Talk to any of the consulate old timers that have women hanging in the halls looking for blue or white slips...If you talk to one, or a dozen of them, you'll see the picture they paint ain't too pretty.

 

I have always been thrilled for the people on Candle that lucked out and had the short little 2 or 3 question interview and got their visa, just as I am very happy you lucked out and got the visa Roger, but to think it's ALL in the well prepared paperwork just doesn't bear fruit....the REAL facts and figures just DON'T PROVE it, either.

 

Good LUCK to everyone in que for that ol' interview day. Prepare like their is no tomorrow...and cross yer fingers.

 

tsap seui

Edited June 14, 2008 by tsap seui (see edit history)

[gunsmokebob]

Roger,

 

I have to agree with you. SOMEBODY reads these things before the interview! We all know how screwed up any federal government agency can be. The IRS is a great example that all U.S. citizens can relate to. I have dealt with the FBI off and on for my entire career as a law enforcement officer and I can tell you that they are as bad as the IRS sometimes!

With the number of visa applications that go through Guangzhou, I cannot believe that the VOs read everthing in the file. By the time the VO gets the file, some clerk or other minor government official has added thier opinion to it.

This is just my belief. This is based on my years of dealing with investigations. Or maybe it is just my hope and I am clinging to it because I miss my wife so damn much!

It just tears my heart out to read about those like tsap. I pray for these couples. I rejoice for all of those that get that pink slip.

[georgeandli]

Which is why I stated from MY experience. I will make two points and then no more ranting. 1: I filed K-1 in early 2004. Blue slips were for additional documentation. I found Candle late in the overcome process, too late to help with original filing. The bottom line is that GUZ denial was based on the fact they held LiWen and to the same standards as a marriage, not for the K-1. At least that is what was on the rejection letter dated 5/11/2006. 2: This was before IMBRA, so anything I went through information wise is outdated and most likely of no use anymore.

[Randy W]

As I have opined before over the past two years, this is a cumulative review and evaluation process.

 

IMO, it starts from the moment the file hits the Service Center and is first reviewed for content; are all the forms included, are they all signed, is the check attached etc.

 

. . .

 

The (profiled) file then moves on to the Consulate, where specialist staff within the Consulate, other than the actual VO¡¯s, review the previous findings/recommendations of the service center and the NVC.

 

. . .

 

On interview day, Consulate staff will quickly review the just submitted police report and the medical file results, and supply the summary of this information to the VO, who already now has the case file data in hand, just prior to the interview.

 

. . .

 

In [most] cases, the determination the bona fides (pink/blue findings) has already been made prior to the beneficiary ever coming to the interview window. Moreover, the VO is just the messenger and it doesn¡¯t matter what VO you get, they adhere to the info supplied to them by their support staff and the collective assessment of the previous review agencies.

 

. . .

 

Again, this is in most cases. There are those cases, which due to conflicting information and/or sketchy information, may have the VO clarifying information and data, at the window, prior to the final determination being made as to blue or pink. Therein, in this instance he/she would make the final determination as to the bona fides of the relationship and/or the information supplied.

 

I also know, based on documents returned to me in GZ and my personal observation of the contents of the sealed brown envelope, opened at the POE, that the original I-129F case file, stays together for the most part, right up to the end of the process. All that was missing from my file, was the front or top press board cover of the file. All the contents less the photos and orig doc's returned to me with the visas in GZ, were in the POE officer's hand as he flipped through it at LAX, including my bottom press board top hinged, top hole punched, folder cover, with the now not so shiny, Acco clip still attached.

 

. . .

 

 

I think this was a very good write-up, Roger, especially when viewed as advice to someone preparing their petition. But I think the question here is what percentage of cases are effectively pre-determined before the interview?

 

I don't think it can be as high as you are indicating ("most"). My guess would be closer to 20% (and only approvals) - that the final choice IS left to the VO, who at least goes through the motions of making a decision. As long as the interview goes as expected, then everything goes per what's in the file, but by and large nothing was actually pre-determined.

 

But at the "most" level, I think we'd be seeing a lot more rubber stamp interviews, and a lot fewer that are reported as random.

 

In any event, that's a layer that we can never hope to get more information on. That and the quality of information submitted by the applicant and beneficiary are factors we really don't know.

 

And yes, you hand-carry the full I-129F package to the POE, which will be in the IO's hands when you go in for the AOS interview.

[tsap seui]

Roger,

 

I have to agree with you. SOMEBODY reads these things before the interview! We all know how screwed up any federal government agency can be. The IRS is a great example that all U.S. citizens can relate to. I have dealt with the FBI off and on for my entire career as a law enforcement officer and I can tell you that they are as bad as the IRS sometimes!

With the number of visa applications that go through Guangzhou, I cannot believe that the VOs read everthing in the file. By the time the VO gets the file, some clerk or other minor government official has added thier opinion to it.

This is just my belief. This is based on my years of dealing with investigations. Or maybe it is just my hope and I am clinging to it because I miss my wife so damn much!

It just tears my heart out to read about those like tsap. I pray for these couples. I rejoice for all of those that get that pink slip.

 

Very nice from the heart post Bob.

 

I agree with you and Roger that others read those case files and put their notes in them for the VO's to scan shortly before the interviews. And from what we've been told by insiders it's mainly Chinese workers who the VO's have trained.

 

There is a ton of profiling and looking for patterns going on in that consulate. What else can they do with the extreme volume of interviews going on each day? Candle members are not even a small percentage of the amount of people that go through the interviews each and EVERY DAY.

 

And yes, mistakes are going to happen, everyone in the consulate is human, and they are totally overworked beyond all logical sense...probably, and apparently on purpose. The margin for error, either way, is way off the charts.

 

That is why the interview process is a crap shoot. People lives are literally hinged on luck. What worked fine for one couple is a disaster for another. And the unlucky ones are often not even given a chance to find out what is wrong, much LESS respond to it, before the axe drops.

 

We had ten months of waitinig and never once were asked to submit a single scrap of overcome evidence...if I cared anymore I would ask why. Heck, I could ask why my woman was asked 31 questions that she perfectly answered correctly and wound up with a blue slip...it's meaningless, useless, and a huge waste of time to ponder crap like that.

 

I choose instead, to look at the denial as a new opportunity, as our own lucky day, if you will. Heck, our 12 year old son is in the best private school in his city and he is doing fantastic in his studies. From what I saw he was taking, american school, 9th or 10th grade subjects in the 5th grade for Bubba's sake. Every kid from China who has come over with their mom has done great in school here...no freakin' wonder, their work load was cut in half.

 

I have so many things to be thankful for, I look at the DOS's denial as simply opening my eyes to the path that was meant for me, from the every beginning by someone much more wiser and all seeing than me. It's up to me to take this opportunity and run with it.

 

The paperwork is very important and Roger was a fine example of getting everything in order. I hope others, down the que will read his posts and learn. But, all the graphs, charts, and projections are nothing more than speculation and conjecture...they're like...something a weatherman speculates is going to happen.

 

Especially when your data source is so small as the few posters on Candle who go each month to an interview. We from Candle aren't even 1/2,500th of the amount of people who interview each month.

Not much of a data base to work off of here.

 

Thanks for your words of sympthay Bob, I hear them, but the thing is...I may be one of the luckiest ones on the board. We were denied with the words..."Did not prove a bona fide relationship"...Now THAT'S funny

 

Those meaningless words will blow away with the wind, our bona fide relationship will last through-out eternity, our journey is just, and finally, starting. We will be just fine.

 

I hope and pray for the success of those in que. I hope you get what you seek, and I hope that you can live with what you get, be it...pink, blue, or white.

 

tsap seui

Edited June 14, 2008 by tsap seui (see edit history)

[chilton747]

Roger,

 

I have to agree with you. SOMEBODY reads these things before the interview! We all know how screwed up any federal government agency can be. The IRS is a great example that all U.S. citizens can relate to. I have dealt with the FBI off and on for my entire career as a law enforcement officer and I can tell you that they are as bad as the IRS sometimes!

With the number of visa applications that go through Guangzhou, I cannot believe that the VOs read everthing in the file. By the time the VO gets the file, some clerk or other minor government official has added thier opinion to it.

This is just my belief. This is based on my years of dealing with investigations. Or maybe it is just my hope and I am clinging to it because I miss my wife so damn much!

It just tears my heart out to read about those like tsap. I pray for these couples. I rejoice for all of those that get that pink slip.

 

Very nice from the heart post Bob.

 

I agree with you and Roger that others read those case files and put their notes in them for the VO's to scan shortly before the interviews. And from what we've been told by insiders it's mainly Chinese workers who the VO's have trained.

 

There is a ton of profiling and looking for patterns going on in that consulate. What else can they do with the extreme volume of interviews going on each day? Candle members are not even a small percentage of the amount of people that go through the interviews each and EVERY DAY.

 

And yes, mistakes are going to happen, everyone in the consulate is human, and they are totally overworked beyond all logical sense...probably, and apparently on purpose. The margin for error, either way, is way off the charts.

 

That is why the interview process is a crap shoot. People lives are literally hinged on luck. What worked fine for one couple is a disaster for another. And the unlucky ones are often not even given a chance to find out what is wrong, much LESS respond to it, before the axe drops.

 

We had ten months of waitinig and never once were asked to submit a single scrap of overcome evidence...if I cared anymore I would ask why. Heck, I could ask why my woman was asked 31 questions that she perfectly answered correctly and wound up with a blue slip...it's meaningless, useless, and a huge waste of time to ponder crap like that.

 

I choose instead, to look at the denial as a new opportunity, as our own lucky day, if you will. Heck, our 12 year old son is in the best private school in his city and he is doing fantastic in his studies. From what I saw he was taking, american school, 9th or 10th grade subjects in the 5th grade for Bubba's sake. Every kid from China who has come over with their mom has done great in school here...no freakin' wonder, their work load was cut in half.

 

I have so many things to be thankful for, I look at the DOS's denial as simply opening my eyes to the path that was meant for me, from the every beginning by someone much more wiser and all seeing than me. It's up to me to take this opportunity and run with it.

 

The paperwork is very important and Roger was a fine example of getting everything in order. I hope others, down the que will read his posts and learn. But, all the graphs, charts, and projections are nothing more than speculation and conjecture...they're like...something a weatherman speculates is going to happen.

 

Especially when your data source is so small as the few posters on Candle who go each month to an interview. We from Candle aren't even 1/2,500th of the amount of people who interview each month.

Not much of a data base to work off of here.

 

Thanks for your words of sympthay Bob, I hear them, but the thing is...I may be one of the luckiest ones on the board. We were denied with the words..."Did not prove a bona fide relationship"...Now THAT'S funny

 

Those meaningless words will blow away with the wind, our bona fide relationship will last through-out eternity, our journey is just, and finally, starting. We will be just fine.

 

I hope and pray for the success of those in que. I hope you get what you seek, and I hope that you can live with what you get, be it...pink, blue, or white.

 

tsap seui

 

Well put cuzin Tsap Bawb!!!! For Bubba's sake!

[tsap seui]

 

 

 

For Bubba's sake!

 

Budda or Bubba...what's the difference. They're both cool guys...and are both about the same size, with the same serene lgrins on their faces.

 

tsap seui

Edited June 15, 2008 by tsap seui (see edit history)

[homersimpsons]

Whole thing is a crap shoot! I prepared an Evolution of Relationship letter and VO never asked for it. 5 folders of supporting documents taken to interview yet nothing was freaking asked for except pictures and financial documents.

 

They random select human beings for tortures. My wife and I are their latest victims as they laugh at our pain and suffering.

[tsap seui]

Whole thing is a crap shoot! I prepared an Evolution of Relationship letter and VO never asked for it. 5 folders of supporting documents taken to interview yet nothing was freaking asked for except pictures and financial documents.

 

They random select human beings for tortures. My wife and I are their latest victims as they laugh at our pain and suffering.

 

Crap shoot? Only a person who has endured a single day of the REAL wait can truly understand the two words "crap shoot". Otherwise, for some, it's "look at how wonderfully I did my paperwork."

 

I'm certain you did your paperwork wonderfully too, Homer, and I wish that was ALL there was to the process. It could happen to anyone, at any time.

 

tsap seui

[homersimpsons]

Whole thing is a crap shoot! I prepared an Evolution of Relationship letter and VO never asked for it. 5 folders of supporting documents taken to interview yet nothing was freaking asked for except pictures and financial documents.

 

They random select human beings for tortures. My wife and I are their latest victims as they laugh at our pain and suffering.

 

Crap shoot? Only a person who has endured a single day of the REAL wait can truly understand the two words "crap shoot". Otherwise, for some, it's "look at how wonderfully I did my paperwork."

 

I'm certain you did your paperwork wonderfully too, Homer, and I wish that was ALL there was to the process. It could happen to anyone, at any time.

 

tsap seui

 

On 06/04/2008 when my wife received her pink, my thoughts were "I did my paperwork wonderfully and was fully prepared for all documents that the VO might have asked and that's why we will be together in the USA on 06/14/2008"

 

On 06/07/2008, when my wife received her blue, my thoughts were, "What the hell did we do wrong? What kind of system is this? It's a random mutherfvcking process where they tortures human soul. You prepare for everything and they don't ask for any of the documents and hand you a blue slip."

[Guest Rob & Jin]

Homer, I understand your frustration, just give want they are asking for.

 

For the others following, I have said it before and I will say it again, get your passport and evolution letter copied and notarized at ACS before the interview, GO TO ACH, introduce yourself ask questions, ask them if you can give them any evidence, be smart play the game.

 

Being there in my opinion is invaluable, dont leave things to chance.

 

JMHO

[georgeandli]

Ditto to what Rob and Jin said. See Rob we do agree . If at all possible go to ACH before the interview and if for nothing else have them pull the file up on the computer and ask if they see ANYTHING that will cause a "problem".