Olympic torch

[Joanne]

I find it interesting that these human rights advocates have been so violent.

 

Of course the violence of the protestors pales in comparison to the level of violence inflicted by the chinese govt upon the Tibetans and the attempt to obliterate their culture by flooding the region with Han's is shameful

 

What do you mean by "the violence inflicted by teh chinese govt upon the Tibetans"? What do you mean by "the attempt to obliterate their culture by flooding the region with Han's"?

[warpedbored]

I find it interesting that these human rights advocates have been so violent.

 

Of course the violence of the protestors pales in comparison to the level of violence inflicted by the chinese govt upon the Tibetans and the attempt to obliterate their culture by flooding the region with Han's is shameful

 

What do you mean by "the violence inflicted by teh chinese govt upon the Tibetans"? What do you mean by "the attempt to obliterate their culture by flooding the region with Han's"?

This link gives some insight into the matter Joanne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ti...public_of_China

 

While I don't believe that Tibet should necessarily be independent of China, to believe that China has been always been gentle and kind to it's wayward child would be naive. Particularly during the cultural revolution when the red guard detroyed many historical artifacts in both China and Tibet.

Edited April 21, 2008 by warpedbored (see edit history)

[Joanne]

I find it interesting that these human rights advocates have been so violent.

 

Of course the violence of the protestors pales in comparison to the level of violence inflicted by the chinese govt upon the Tibetans and the attempt to obliterate their culture by flooding the region with Han's is shameful

 

What do you mean by "the violence inflicted by teh chinese govt upon the Tibetans"? What do you mean by "the attempt to obliterate their culture by flooding the region with Han's"?

This link gives some insight into the matter Joanne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ti...public_of_China

 

While I don't believe that Tibet should necessarily be independent of China, to believe that China has been always been gentle and kind to it's wayward child would be naive. Particularly during the cultural revolution when the red guard detroyed many historical artifacts in both China and Tibet.

 

Cultural revolution is always in history. Does anyone want to deal with it now? in which way?

[warpedbored]

In the now China has been investing heavily in Tibet's infrastructure. Rail lines, hwys etc. It has been paying off in terms of high tourism. Probably Tibet's best industry. China has also been lenient as far as tax structure. As I understand it Tibet pays no taxes to the central government.

 

While I have no doubt that this article is biased I still found it interesting.

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/first...a-party-member/

Edited April 21, 2008 by warpedbored (see edit history)

[IllinoisDave]

While I have no doubt that this article is biased I still found it interesting.

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/first...a-party-member/

I remember reading that article when it was first posted Carl. It does give an interesting perspective on the issue.

 

The Tibet debate is made up of two different issues IMHO. One is the whole FREE TIBET thing. The other is the issue of how the central gov't deals with the native Tibetans and their culture and heritage.

 

Many Chinese, at least the ones I've seen react so passionately during the torch thing,tend to lump anything about Tibet together so that in their eyes if your on the wrong side of one you must be on the other as well.

 

It seems to become a classic "You're either with us or agin us" for all issues. And that's just not the case. Someone who,for instance,criticizes the flood of Han into Tibet as what they see as an attempt to water down or marginalize the native Tibetan culture and legacy may not believe that Tibet should be independant from China.

 

The Jack Cafferrty brouhaha seems to be another example of this. He called the products from China that contained lead or worse "junk" and referred to the GOVERNMENT officials as "the same old goons and thugs" from the last 50 years.

 

Poorly worded, insensitive and possibly a little buffoonish, yes. But he was portrayed as racist and a China-hater with people calling for anything from his firing to his death. That kind of reactionary vitriol would not seem so mis-placed coming from say, Kim Jong-il. But the Chinese people are above that and much more mature.

 

The world is made up of varying shades of grey. China and it's various issues is no different and I think that's a good thing.

Edited April 21, 2008 by IllinoisDave (see edit history)

[Guest lilac6451]

The Jack Cafferrty brouhaha seems to be another example of this. He called the products from China that contained lead or worse "junk"

 

When you only want to pay a cent for something, you cant get gold, no matter where, which is for sure.

 

So I figure that " junk" thing is pushed out by the American business men. So That " Jackass" should lay the blame on the business men instead of on China.

[IllinoisDave]

The Jack Cafferrty brouhaha seems to be another example of this. He called the products from China that contained lead or worse "junk"

 

When you only want to pay a cent for something, you cant get gold, no matter where, which is for sure.

 

So I figure that " junk" thing is pushed out by the American business men. So That " Jackass" should lay the blame on the business men instead of on China.

I agree. The American companies who import that stuff have just as much if not more responsibility as the manufacturers they get it from.

 

My point was not so much to defend what he said, but to point out that he was specific as to what he was calling junk. He specifically mentioned the products containing lead and the poisoned dog food.

 

He didn't say ALL stuff from China is junk. The exaggerated reactions by some made it seem like he did. That was my point.

[hopelives]

I have been to Lhasa, I have seen with my own eyes the rapid influx of Han's into Tibet. You would have to be naive if you don't believe part of the reason is to overwhelm the Tibetan culture in order to control the population. As far as the first point, Dozens being killed pales in comparison to some thugs interrupting a procession I think not. By the way, the poor young disabled women who was assaulted has come under cyber attack for having the temerity to suggest a boycott of the French retailer Carrefour is ill-advised

 

http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/index.html

[Guest lilac6451]

I have been to Lhasa, I have seen with my own eyes the rapid influx of Han's into Tibet. You would have to be naive if you don't believe part of the reason is to overwhelm the Tibetan culture in order to control the population. As far as the first point, Dozens being killed pales in comparison to some thugs interrupting a procession I think not. By the way, the poor young disabled women who was assaulted has come under cyber attack for having the temerity to suggest a boycott of the French retailer Carrefour is ill-advised

 

http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/index.html

 

Aren't the American Indian the first settlers in America? And their culture and language faded out under the influnce of European? And you cant say this kind of influnce is bad, because this is how American Indian merge into modern societies, which makes America the one today,right?

 

It is the same case in Tibet. Tibetan people dont want to remain primitive and backward, they hope to catch up with the other people in China and live a modern and rich life.

 

This is also how society and human being progress. It is hard for some people to understand. But nobody will stop the wheel of history.

[griz326]

You would have to be naive if you don't believe part of the reason is to overwhelm the Tibetan culture in order to control the population.

 

I guess you really hate Californians then for Kalifornicating Oregon, Washington, Idaho and Montana.

[warpedbored]

I assume that many Han have moved into Tibet and benefited from the modernization brought there by the Chinese government. What I don't know is how much if any the native Tibetian population's quality of life has improved.

[IllinoisDave]

Aren't the American Indian the first settlers in America? And their culture and language faded out under the influnce of European? And you cant say this kind of influnce is bad, because this is how American Indian merge into modern societies, which makes America the one today,right?

 

It is the same case in Tibet. Tibetan people dont want to remain primitive and backward, they hope to catch up with the other people in China and live a modern and rich life.

 

This is also how society and human being progress. It is hard for some people to understand. But nobody will stop the wheel of history.

You're right Lilac, the American Indians were here first. And we succeeded in obliterating them to the point that pretty much all they have left is their casinos and their alcoholism. Their "culture" and way of life exists almost exclusively on the reservations that we've begrudginingly left them to.

If it weren't for old Western movies and the occasional tourist they'd be long forgotten.

 

They didn't exactly "merge" into society in the sense that they live among us with their culture and heritage intact. Sure, a few live out West off the reservations and wear pony tails and some Indian jewelry. Otherwise if you see a Native American on the street you may not know him from any number of other ethnic groups. I would say they were more engulfed than merged.

 

"Tibetan people dont want to remain primitive and backward, they hope to catch up with the other people in China and live a modern and rich life."

 

I wonder, do they really want this at the expense of losing their cultural identity ? Or to the degree that is happening now? Maybe they do. I don't know, I don't live there. But somehow I doubt they consider being out-populated by Han and paved and built over to be "catching up" or leading to "a modern and rich life." That's JMHO.

 

 

What we've done in this country to the Native Americans is not something most of us are proud of. And I'm pretty sure the Indians aren't too happy with it either. I think we've created a pretty good mold for how NOT to treat a native people. I guess many just wish the Chinese gov't could learn a few things from our mistakes when dealing with Tibet.

 

I realize that some of our Chinese members, and some of our USCs, think that people like me have no business commenting on Tibet or other things internal to China. Lilac, I totally understand this sentiment and I don't post my thoughts in an attempt to insinuate myself into China's business or offend you or any other member, Chinese or not. I'm just trying to add a different perspective to what I realize is a very sensitive and passionate discussion.

 

You're right, the wheel of history rolls on one way or the other. But my hope would be that all of us would be more considerate for those it rolls over.

Edited April 22, 2008 by IllinoisDave (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

I have been to Lhasa, I have seen with my own eyes the rapid influx of Han's into Tibet. You would have to be naive if you don't believe part of the reason is to overwhelm the Tibetan culture in order to control the population. As far as the first point, Dozens being killed pales in comparison to some thugs interrupting a procession I think not. By the way, the poor young disabled women who was assaulted has come under cyber attack for having the temerity to suggest a boycott of the French retailer Carrefour is ill-advised

 

http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/index.html

 

Aren't the American Indian the first settlers in America? And their culture and language faded out under the influnce of European? And you cant say this kind of influnce is bad, because this is how American Indian merge into modern societies, which makes America the one today,right?

 

It is the same case in Tibet. Tibetan people dont want to remain primitive and backward, they hope to catch up with the other people in China and live a modern and rich life.

 

This is also how society and human being progress. It is hard for some people to understand. But nobody will stop the wheel of history.

I tend to agree... this is a 'tale of two cities'; those who setup policy to "benefit" the country in all areas and those who feel the policies infringe on them; the former says it's political mothering; the latter child abuse.

 

Historically Tibet has had as much conflict as peace with the rest of china; the west didn't (and doesn't) necessarily help the cause at times. What may really be their difficulty is the recalcitrant nature to not move forward together with the rest of the country and to stick to the past; It seems the central governing mother has other thoughts...

 

Certainly the money plowed into the area (infrastructure), the railway connecting them east-to-west (tourism), and the Han influx has occurred (business); but the Han influx to the main cities to setup business may also be a handicap to Tibetians since the language of the Han is Han Yu. If the Tibetians are to progress and benefit (The Tibetian gender gap isn't as bad as Han but their infant mortality rate is quite high, so they could benefit from health services), they need to take some steps which are inevitable; This doesn't mean they will lose their ethic heritage but if they want to retreat to the mountains and valleys and stay backwards and not integrate more, I guess they will... or they can attempt to see what this progress could mean to them in building a more modern culture with buddhist worship; although not sure that the march of history balances this very well in asian countries.

 

While we only hear of migration into Tibet of non-Tibetians, the future will result in eventually Tibetians migrating to other parts of china. In my wife's hometown, I'm intriqued at the Hui majority people who have setup restaurants as a means to keep their sense of historical value and pride; since they (like Tibetians) are not covered by the one-child policy, they can thrive more in cities too. Instead of simply assimilating to "Han" and losing their cutural past they have created a modern [cultural-business] solution. In fact, I eat there all the time; my wife's step father was Hui ren.

Edited April 22, 2008 by DavidZixuan (see edit history)

[warpedbored]

When I lived in Idaho there was a lot of anti Californicator sentiment. Mainly about property values. Californians moving in thought they were getting bargain basement prices while many Idahoans with lower wages no longer could afford to buy a home. This is especially true in resort areas such as Coeur d'Alene where a 1500 SF house that used to sell for 50K will fetch 975K now.

[Smitty]

You would have to be naive if you don't believe part of the reason is to overwhelm the Tibetan culture in order to control the population.

 

I guess you really hate Californians then for Kalifornicating Oregon, Washington, Idaho and Montana.

I do.

Well, then ban me now!