China Shuts Down 44,000 Porn Sites....

[warpedbored]

Enough of the pissing match. No more personal attacks or this will be locked down or delteted.

[IllinoisDave]

Well Well, I would venture to say that since this post started there are 44,000 more new ones up and running

 

I'm up to 340. I'll let you know if I find all 44,000.

 

Typical Illini.....

 

That's typical Redbird to you.

[griz326]

Gosh, it's awfully big of you guys to happily toss away another of the average Chinese citizen's rights like that. I'm sure they appreciate it.

 

I don't care to look at porn when I'm in China and while it may be no skin off your nose that you can't see it either, I'm sure at least some of the 1.3 billion citizens there may prefer to maintain that right.

 

What other kinds of things that YOU don't care for would you like to see the Chinese gov't take away?

I have no problem eliminating porn since it does nothing for me anyway. I have a beautiful wife, good job and a nice home, I don't need porn to get me through the day.

 

I wasn't aware that looking at porn was a "right" under Chinese rule. In the U.S. being able to watch porn is protected as a right under our Constitution, China is not required to abide by our constitution when setting policy for their country or people. One of the things I like about China is the innocence I see when there. This innocence is the result of China prohibiting access to things like porn.

 

I think Americans tend to travel to other countries and expect everything to be just like it is back home, wanting to impose our ideals and values, instead of accepting that other countries have their own ideas about what is acceptable and best for their people and what is not.

 

When you get back home you can look at all the porn you want if that's what makes you happy, but when in China accept that they are doing what they think is best for their people (right or wrong).

 

I'm with the Rak on this.

 

Their country; their rules.

 

You might want to consider the effect that American-style free speech could have on a nation like China.

 

IMO, China has come a long way since my first visit in 1978. The people are changing and the government is changing in a methodical way. Evidence of government control in China is almost non-existent compared to 1978. Life in China is much better than it was and it continues to improve. I don't want to see the Chinese freedom train derailed by outside interference.

[Trigg]

Shuting down porn is just plain wrong!! Why it's, it's, it's un-American it is. Yup, un-American I tells ya!!!!!

[IllinoisDave]

Gosh, it's awfully big of you guys to happily toss away another of the average Chinese citizen's rights like that. I'm sure they appreciate it.

 

I don't care to look at porn when I'm in China and while it may be no skin off your nose that you can't see it either, I'm sure at least some of the 1.3 billion citizens there may prefer to maintain that right.

 

What other kinds of things that YOU don't care for would you like to see the Chinese gov't take away?

I have no problem eliminating porn since it does nothing for me anyway. I have a beautiful wife, good job and a nice home, I don't need porn to get me through the day.

 

I wasn't aware that looking at porn was a "right" under Chinese rule. In the U.S. being able to watch porn is protected as a right under our Constitution, China is not required to abide by our constitution when setting policy for their country or people. One of the things I like about China is the innocence I see when there. This innocence is the result of China prohibiting access to things like porn.

 

I think Americans tend to travel to other countries and expect everything to be just like it is back home, wanting to impose our ideals and values, instead of accepting that other countries have their own ideas about what is acceptable and best for their people and what is not.

 

When you get back home you can look at all the porn you want if that's what makes you happy, but when in China accept that they are doing what they think is best for their people (right or wrong).

 

I'm with the Rak on this.

 

Their country; their rules.

 

You might want to consider the effect that American-style free speech could have on a nation like China.

 

IMO, China has come a long way since my first visit in 1978. The people are changing and the government is changing in a methodical way. Evidence of government control in China is almost non-existent compared to 1978. Life in China is much better than it was and it continues to improve. I don't want to see the Chinese freedom train derailed by outside interference.

 

You both have missed, or misunderstood my point. The point isn't that we should flood China with porn sites. I was trying to point out the irony in US citizens being glad that a foreign gov't is censoring the internet for it's citizens. I probably could've use a different term than "rights" as it pertains to China, my bad.

 

The fact that US citizens have no problem with another country denying to it's citizens what millions here are free to take advantage of just seemed a bit ironic to me. That was my point. One's personal feelings about the particular content really has little bearing and is fodder for another thread IMHO.

 

I"m well aware of the whole "Their country; their rules" thing. Everyone here, including me, knows that China is a different animal in a lot of ways. But as far as considering "the effect that American-style free speech could have on a nation like China"? I'm happy to consider that. I'm sure you don't mean you would wish to deny them that do you?

 

I'm not advocating we charge in and demand they make all the porn sites or anything else available to their people. That would be silly. I'm just saying I think it's sad that they don't.

 

You may not think it's sad because it's porn. Fair enough. So what other kind of content would you be ok with them keeping from their people? Your list is probably a helluva lot shorter than the Chinese government's. Should you be the gatekeeper? Should I? Should they?

 

My point is once someone starts that list, it's very easy to make it longer. And I think that's a bad thing whether it's a citizen of a free and democratic country or the Chinese government making that list.

[DMikeS4321]

You both have missed, or misunderstood my point. The point isn't that we should flood China with porn sites. I was trying to point out the irony in US citizens being glad that a foreign gov't is censoring the internet for it's citizens. I probably could've use a different term than "rights" as it pertains to China, my bad.

 

The fact that US citizens have no problem with another country denying to it's citizens what millions here are free to take advantage of just seemed a bit ironic to me. That was my point. One's personal feelings about the particular content really has little bearing and is fodder for another thread IMHO.

 

I"m well aware of the whole "Their country; their rules" thing. Everyone here, including me, knows that China is a different animal in a lot of ways. But as far as considering "the effect that American-style free speech could have on a nation like China"? I'm happy to consider that. I'm sure you don't mean you would wish to deny them that do you?

 

I'm not advocating we charge in and demand they make all the porn sites or anything else available to their people. That would be silly. I'm just saying I think it's sad that they don't.

 

You may not think it's sad because it's porn. Fair enough. So what other kind of content would you be ok with them keeping from their people? Your list is probably a helluva lot shorter than the Chinese government's. Should you be the gatekeeper? Should I? Should they?

 

My point is once someone starts that list, it's very easy to make it longer. And I think that's a bad thing whether it's a citizen of a free and democratic country or the Chinese government making that list.

 

Actually, my point was that I wish OUR country had the moral fiber to protect 10 years olds from the disgusting stuff that is swamping the internet. Read the writings of the Founders, then try to discern what they were talking about when addressing freedom of speech. Porn wasn't even on the radar screen. We've also come to realize that none of the rights ennumerated are absolute; i.e. screaming "FIRE" in a crowded theater.

 

Meanwhile, several big name politicians are restricting the very expression the Bill of Rights was written to protect!!!

 

Just seems backwards to me...

[DMikeS4321]

The fact that US citizens have no problem with another country denying to it's citizens what millions here are free to take advantage of just seemed a bit ironic to me.

 

Are you saying we should 'have a problem' with other countries who deny rights to their citizens??

 

Careful, Dave, don't embarrass yourself... you should know where THIS will end up!

[griz326]

You both have missed, or misunderstood my point. The point isn't that we should flood China with porn sites. I was trying to point out the irony in US citizens being glad that a foreign gov't is censoring the internet for it's citizens. I probably could've use a different term than "rights" as it pertains to China, my bad.

 

The fact that US citizens have no problem with another country denying to it's citizens what millions here are free to take advantage of just seemed a bit ironic to me. That was my point. One's personal feelings about the particular content really has little bearing and is fodder for another thread IMHO.

 

I"m well aware of the whole "Their country; their rules" thing. Everyone here, including me, knows that China is a different animal in a lot of ways. But as far as considering "the effect that American-style free speech could have on a nation like China"? I'm happy to consider that. I'm sure you don't mean you would wish to deny them that do you?

 

I'm not advocating we charge in and demand they make all the porn sites or anything else available to their people. That would be silly. I'm just saying I think it's sad that they don't.

 

You may not think it's sad because it's porn. Fair enough. So what other kind of content would you be ok with them keeping from their people? Your list is probably a helluva lot shorter than the Chinese government's. Should you be the gatekeeper? Should I? Should they?

 

My point is once someone starts that list, it's very easy to make it longer. And I think that's a bad thing whether it's a citizen of a free and democratic country or the Chinese government making that list.

 

>>>You both have missed, or misunderstood my point.

 

I don't think so.

 

>>>I was trying to point out the irony in US citizens being glad that a foreign gov't is censoring the internet for it's citizens.

 

Why do you think that I am glad about it?

 

>>>The fact that US citizens have no problem with another country denying to it's citizens what millions here are free to take advantage of just seemed a bit ironic to me.

 

This must have something to do with the glad thing....

 

>>>I"m well aware of the whole "Their country; their rules" thing.

 

From your tone, you may be aware of it, but you clearly do not respect it.

 

>>>But as far as considering "the effect that American-style free speech could have on a nation like China"? I'm happy to consider that. I'm sure you don't mean you would wish to deny them that do you?

 

The only reason that you could be happy to consider that would be a shallow understanding of Chinese history. Perhaps if you watched "China: A century of revolution" and read a John Fairbanks history of China it would help your understanding..

 

I think it is the perogative of the Chinese government to do what it thinks is best for their country. You cannot deny the tremendous progress of the last 30 years. The time table is working, albeit slowly. Perhaps the increased freedom in China is an unintended consequence, but it is necessary if China wants to continue down the road. China has begun its journey to freedom.

 

As for American-style free speech, the First Amendment has been abused in the last 40 years in this country. The way the amendment has been interpreted in recent times makes it looks like a fat lady in spandex.

 

Most of my adult life I worked as a journalist. The modern "shock journalists" write prose that resembles shouting "Fire!" in a crowded movie theatre. The content they produce is feces to feed to unsmart "educated" Americans.

 

Most of American-style free speech today is disgraceful. Many free speech abusers deserve to be muzzled; but to muzzle them would destroy a great American freedom.

[IllinoisDave]

You both have missed, or misunderstood my point. The point isn't that we should flood China with porn sites. I was trying to point out the irony in US citizens being glad that a foreign gov't is censoring the internet for it's citizens. I probably could've use a different term than "rights" as it pertains to China, my bad.

 

The fact that US citizens have no problem with another country denying to it's citizens what millions here are free to take advantage of just seemed a bit ironic to me. That was my point. One's personal feelings about the particular content really has little bearing and is fodder for another thread IMHO.

 

I"m well aware of the whole "Their country; their rules" thing. Everyone here, including me, knows that China is a different animal in a lot of ways. But as far as considering "the effect that American-style free speech could have on a nation like China"? I'm happy to consider that. I'm sure you don't mean you would wish to deny them that do you?

 

I'm not advocating we charge in and demand they make all the porn sites or anything else available to their people. That would be silly. I'm just saying I think it's sad that they don't.

 

You may not think it's sad because it's porn. Fair enough. So what other kind of content would you be ok with them keeping from their people? Your list is probably a helluva lot shorter than the Chinese government's. Should you be the gatekeeper? Should I? Should they?

 

My point is once someone starts that list, it's very easy to make it longer. And I think that's a bad thing whether it's a citizen of a free and democratic country or the Chinese government making that list.

 

Actually, my point was that I wish OUR country had the moral fiber to protect 10 years olds from the disgusting stuff that is swamping the internet. Read the writings of the Founders, then try to discern what they were talking about when addressing freedom of speech. Porn wasn't even on the radar screen. We've also come to realize that none of the rights ennumerated are absolute; i.e. screaming "FIRE" in a crowded theater.

 

Meanwhile, several big name politicians are restricting the very expression the Bill of Rights was written to protect!!!

 

Just seems backwards to me...

 

Forget moral fiber, how about something called parental responsibility? Too many parents in this country let the computer or television be a substitute for actual parental contact.

 

I think that the beauty of what the Founders wrote is that it IS a little ambiguous. I believe they had the foresight to not decide exactly what constitues freedom of speech or religion or whatever. They knew that the citizenry would have the good sense to figure out where the limits were. Some people just think they should be able to impose THEIR limits on the population as a whole. That I have a problem with.

[IllinoisDave]

 

Are you saying we should 'have a problem' with other countries who deny rights to their citizens??

 

Careful, Dave, don't embarrass yourself... you should know where THIS will end up!

 

I guess it depends on your definition of "have a problem." I'm talking about disagreeing/lamenting/wishing it weren't the case. Does yours by any chance involve invasion with military forces to ensure the rights of that country's citizens? If so, your definition differs from mine significantly.

[IllinoisDave]

 

>>>You both have missed, or misunderstood my point.

 

I don't think so.

 

Then you don't understand the definition of irony.

 

>>>I was trying to point out the irony in US citizens being glad that a foreign gov't is censoring the internet for it's citizens.

 

Why do you think that I am glad about it?

 

Well, you said: "I'm with Rak on this." And Rak said: "I have no problem eliminating porn since it does nothing for me anyway." AND:" but when in China accept that they are doing what they think is best for their people (right or wrong)."

 

Rak appears to be saying that eliminating porn in China is fine with him and we should just accept whatever the Chinese gov't does, RIGHT OR WRONG. If, as you say, you're with Rak, then you must not be SAD that it's happening. You're either with him or your not.

 

 

 

>>>The fact that US citizens have no problem with another country denying to it's citizens what millions here are free to take advantage of just seemed a bit ironic to me.

 

This must have something to do with the glad thing....

 

Yes, it must.

 

>>>I"m well aware of the whole "Their country; their rules" thing.

 

From your tone, you may be aware of it, but you clearly do not respect it.

 

I respect it when it comes to things that are respectable. Are you saying we should "respect" everything their gov't does just because well, "Their country, their rules."? That seems pretty silly considering some of the things they do. I respect China and it's people and culture immensely, that doesn't mean I have to like or respect everything it's government does. Remember, I'm not talking about invading and demanding they afford the same rights we have. I'm talking about wishing it were already so.

 

>>>But as far as considering "the effect that American-style free speech could have on a nation like China"? I'm happy to consider that. I'm sure you don't mean you would wish to deny them that do you?

 

The only reason that you could be happy to consider that would be a shallow understanding of Chinese history. Perhaps if you watched "China: A century of revolution" and read a John Fairbanks history of China it would help your understanding..

 

Again, considering it and demanding it are two different things. If you're arguing that free speech,even American style free speech, is bad for any country, then I'm glad you weren't a Founding Father.

 

I think it is the perogative of the Chinese government to do what it thinks is best for their country. You cannot deny the tremendous progress of the last 30 years. The time table is working, albeit slowly. Perhaps the increased freedom in China is an unintended consequence, but it is necessary if China wants to continue down the road. China has begun its journey to freedom.

 

No argument here.

 

As for American-style free speech, the First Amendment has been abused in the last 40 years in this country. The way the amendment has been interpreted in recent times makes it looks like a fat lady in spandex.

 

So we should all live under YOUR interpretion of free speech? Forgive me if I take a pass.

 

Most of my adult life I worked as a journalist. The modern "shock journalists" write prose that resembles shouting "Fire!" in a crowded movie theatre. The content they produce is feces to feed to unsmart "educated" Americans.

 

Careful, some of the folks here may not take kindly to you speaking about FOX News and their viewers that way.

 

Most of American-style free speech today is disgraceful. Many free speech abusers deserve to be muzzled; but to muzzle them would destroy a great American freedom.

 

Who gets to decide what's disgraceful and who the abusers are? You? I'll take a pass on that as well thank you.

[david_dawei]

just peeking in...

 

Thought I would interject some...

 

but realized I've missed a whole lot of fun...

 

so I should just pull out...

 

wouldn't want to rain on anyone's fun...

[DMikeS4321]

You both have missed, or misunderstood my point. The point isn't that we should flood China with porn sites. I was trying to point out the irony in US citizens being glad that a foreign gov't is censoring the internet for it's citizens. I probably could've use a different term than "rights" as it pertains to China, my bad.

 

The fact that US citizens have no problem with another country denying to it's citizens what millions here are free to take advantage of just seemed a bit ironic to me. That was my point. One's personal feelings about the particular content really has little bearing and is fodder for another thread IMHO.

 

I"m well aware of the whole "Their country; their rules" thing. Everyone here, including me, knows that China is a different animal in a lot of ways. But as far as considering "the effect that American-style free speech could have on a nation like China"? I'm happy to consider that. I'm sure you don't mean you would wish to deny them that do you?

 

I'm not advocating we charge in and demand they make all the porn sites or anything else available to their people. That would be silly. I'm just saying I think it's sad that they don't.

 

You may not think it's sad because it's porn. Fair enough. So what other kind of content would you be ok with them keeping from their people? Your list is probably a helluva lot shorter than the Chinese government's. Should you be the gatekeeper? Should I? Should they?

 

My point is once someone starts that list, it's very easy to make it longer. And I think that's a bad thing whether it's a citizen of a free and democratic country or the Chinese government making that list.

 

Actually, my point was that I wish OUR country had the moral fiber to protect 10 years olds from the disgusting stuff that is swamping the internet. Read the writings of the Founders, then try to discern what they were talking about when addressing freedom of speech. Porn wasn't even on the radar screen. We've also come to realize that none of the rights ennumerated are absolute; i.e. screaming "FIRE" in a crowded theater.

 

Meanwhile, several big name politicians are restricting the very expression the Bill of Rights was written to protect!!!

 

Just seems backwards to me...

 

Forget moral fiber, how about something called parental responsibility? Too many parents in this country let the computer or television be a substitute for actual parental contact.

 

I think that the beauty of what the Founders wrote is that it IS a little ambiguous. I believe they had the foresight to not decide exactly what constitues freedom of speech or religion or whatever. They knew that the citizenry would have the good sense to figure out where the limits were. Some people just think they should be able to impose THEIR limits on the population as a whole. That I have a problem with.

 

When my 13 year old can do an search for an innocuous term and end up with results showing beastiality and graphic sex, I have a problem with THAT! If it can't be broadcast, it shouldn't be online, not without some sort of filter. If it can't be sold in plain view in a 7/11, it shouldn't be online, not without some sort of filter. What are we trying to 'protect' here, smut merchants or our children?

 

Meanwhile, we can't do issue advertising within 90 days of an election? Where were you when McCain-Feingold was passed (and signed; this was an equal opportunity, bi-partisan violation of the Bill of Rights)?

 

As for ambiguity, not really. It's relatively easy to discern original intent. All you need to do is find judges who are willing to read the historical documents!

Edited January 28, 2008 by DMikeS4321 (see edit history)

[IllinoisDave]

You both have missed, or misunderstood my point. The point isn't that we should flood China with porn sites. I was trying to point out the irony in US citizens being glad that a foreign gov't is censoring the internet for it's citizens. I probably could've use a different term than "rights" as it pertains to China, my bad.

 

The fact that US citizens have no problem with another country denying to it's citizens what millions here are free to take advantage of just seemed a bit ironic to me. That was my point. One's personal feelings about the particular content really has little bearing and is fodder for another thread IMHO.

 

I"m well aware of the whole "Their country; their rules" thing. Everyone here, including me, knows that China is a different animal in a lot of ways. But as far as considering "the effect that American-style free speech could have on a nation like China"? I'm happy to consider that. I'm sure you don't mean you would wish to deny them that do you?

 

I'm not advocating we charge in and demand they make all the porn sites or anything else available to their people. That would be silly. I'm just saying I think it's sad that they don't.

 

You may not think it's sad because it's porn. Fair enough. So what other kind of content would you be ok with them keeping from their people? Your list is probably a helluva lot shorter than the Chinese government's. Should you be the gatekeeper? Should I? Should they?

 

My point is once someone starts that list, it's very easy to make it longer. And I think that's a bad thing whether it's a citizen of a free and democratic country or the Chinese government making that list.

 

Actually, my point was that I wish OUR country had the moral fiber to protect 10 years olds from the disgusting stuff that is swamping the internet. Read the writings of the Founders, then try to discern what they were talking about when addressing freedom of speech. Porn wasn't even on the radar screen. We've also come to realize that none of the rights ennumerated are absolute; i.e. screaming "FIRE" in a crowded theater.

 

Meanwhile, several big name politicians are restricting the very expression the Bill of Rights was written to protect!!!

 

Just seems backwards to me...

 

Forget moral fiber, how about something called parental responsibility? Too many parents in this country let the computer or television be a substitute for actual parental contact.

 

I think that the beauty of what the Founders wrote is that it IS a little ambiguous. I believe they had the foresight to not decide exactly what constitues freedom of speech or religion or whatever. They knew that the citizenry would have the good sense to figure out where the limits were. Some people just think they should be able to impose THEIR limits on the population as a whole. That I have a problem with.

 

When my 13 year old can do an search for an innocuous term and end up with results showing beastiality and graphic sex, I have a problem with THAT! If it can't be broadcast, it shouldn't be online, not without some sort of filter. If it can't be sold in plain view in a 7/11, it shouldn't be online, not without some sort of filter. What are we trying to 'protect' here, smut merchants or our children?

 

Meanwhile, we can't do issue advertising within 90 days of an election? Where were you when McCain-Feingold was passed (and signed; this was an equal opportunity, bi-partisan violation of the Bill of Rights)?

 

As for ambiguity, not really. It's relatively easy to discern original intent. All you need to do is find judges who are willing to read the historical documents!

 

There are filters out there. Use them. But don't force YOUR personal moral/sexual filter on the rest of us. Who decides what smut is? I sure as hell don't need someone else deciding for me what it is, especially on the internet. On the broadcast channels that are paid for by taxpayers? Ok, I can live with that. But no one forces anyone to go on the internet. If you're afraid your 13 yr old will go blind because of something he/she sees on the internet, do the searches yourself or hire someone to do it.

 

It's a bit of a strawman argument anyway as we all know that graphic images like the ones you mentioned require more than just one innocuous click of a mouse to view. Teach your 13 year old not to click on anything that looks questionable. Again, parental involvement is required.

 

As for the rest? Too political for me.