China: West should do more

[griz326]

I found this comment interesting:

 

>>>"I think there is much room for the United States to think whether it's possible to change its lifestyle and energy consumption patterns in order to contribute to the global climate."

 

In the US, lifestyle and energy consumption are out of the hands of government. Lifestyle and energy consumption are largely determined by people trying to make a buck.

 

How many people are driving SUVs in parts of the country where SUVs are toys not tools? (although I concede I'd rather have my family in an SUV than that 75mpg Mercedes SMART car)

 

Our society is manipulated more by TV/business/commerce than by government.

[IllinoisDave]

I found this comment interesting:

 

>>>"I think there is much room for the United States to think whether it's possible to change its lifestyle and energy consumption patterns in order to contribute to the global climate."

 

In the US, lifestyle and energy consumption are out of the hands of government. Lifestyle and energy consumption are largely determined by people trying to make a buck.

 

How many people are driving SUVs in parts of the country where SUVs are toys not tools? (although I concede I'd rather have my family in an SUV than that 75mpg Mercedes SMART car)

 

Our society is manipulated more by TV/business/commerce than by government.

 

I think what's being alluded to in the quote is the idea that this kind of action on the part of the citizenry and/or business sector could be possible or made easier if there was some LEADERSHIP from the government.

Edited December 11, 2007 by IllinoisDave (see edit history)

[LeeFisher3]

This is a good discussion, let's not start adding political overtones or accusations.

[david_dawei]

China: West should do more to cope with warming

-------------------

 

I found this very interesting since the message from china is one that I have stated over the last year here, concerning per capita issues...

 

It's a difficult call, but I'd say China is acting like a baby on this one.

 

No matter what you think, though, the concept of Western nations accepting binding cuts while developing countries don't is a non-starter. I doubt it will ever happen.

But I am of the opinion that china is already doing more than the US...

 

How so?

I've documented it in the almost dozen or so previous discussions on the same topic.. I guess it's hard to make this point in one post now.

 

I would only suggest, which I have already stated in this thread, that china's pursuit of hydroelectric power and nuclear power is beyond most other countries measure; They might not act as fast but they have plans going out to 2050. I don't know how many other countries have this kind of planning.

[david_dawei]

I found this comment interesting:

 

>>>"I think there is much room for the United States to think whether it's possible to change its lifestyle and energy consumption patterns in order to contribute to the global climate."

 

In the US, lifestyle and energy consumption are out of the hands of government. Lifestyle and energy consumption are largely determined by people trying to make a buck.

 

How many people are driving SUVs in parts of the country where SUVs are toys not tools? (although I concede I'd rather have my family in an SUV than that 75mpg Mercedes SMART car)

 

Our society is manipulated more by TV/business/commerce than by government.

Your point is well taken and may be one of those cultural missteps taken between countries... that China, which historically expects the government to be an example and lead the people in ideology and policy may not be fairly applied to the western way.

 

I do agree with your basic formula that we are manipulated by the media more so, but let's face it; the gov't doesn't want anything to negatively affect the economy and usually promotes spending more than savings.

 

As DMike replies expectedly, what if some action by the government does affect the economy? Well...we seem to believe that there should only be positive influence on the economy without accepting the bad; anyone who knows the bible well enough should see the parallel saying from Job ("how can we accept the good and not the bad").

 

I think it's a profound thing to realize that everything comes in it's time (another thought from the book of Ecclesiastes)... some day maybe we can also take a very long term view of the future and not stop all our action over the immediate "now"...

[Corbin]

I found this comment interesting:

 

>>>"I think there is much room for the United States to think whether it's possible to change its lifestyle and energy consumption patterns in order to contribute to the global climate."

 

In the US, lifestyle and energy consumption are out of the hands of government. Lifestyle and energy consumption are largely determined by people trying to make a buck.

 

How many people are driving SUVs in parts of the country where SUVs are toys not tools? (although I concede I'd rather have my family in an SUV than that 75mpg Mercedes SMART car)

 

Our society is manipulated more by TV/business/commerce than by government.

That car is a total laugh and a half. Nothing more than a Go-cart for the road. If you ask me it is not very practical for US market. Even if you could get it here I don't think it will sell.

[Don]

I found this comment interesting:

 

>>>"I think there is much room for the United States to think whether it's possible to change its lifestyle and energy consumption patterns in order to contribute to the global climate."

 

In the US, lifestyle and energy consumption are out of the hands of government. Lifestyle and energy consumption are largely determined by people trying to make a buck.

 

How many people are driving SUVs in parts of the country where SUVs are toys not tools? (although I concede I'd rather have my family in an SUV than that 75mpg Mercedes SMART car)

 

Our society is manipulated more by TV/business/commerce than by government.

That car is a total laugh and a half. Nothing more than a Go-cart for the road. If you ask me it is not very practical for US market. Even if you could get it here I don't think it will sell.

 

I think Smart cars are selling in SoCal now.

 

Governments can and do set consumption patterns with taxation laws. So trends can be made by energy policy and taxation.

[I love Sunshine]

China: West should do more to cope with warming

-------------------

 

I found this very interesting since the message from china is one that I have stated over the last year here, concerning per capita issues...

 

It's a difficult call, but I'd say China is acting like a baby on this one.

 

No matter what you think, though, the concept of Western nations accepting binding cuts while developing countries don't is a non-starter. I doubt it will ever happen.

If I were looking only at this moments issue, I might agree about how china is acting.. but this is the result of years of pushing from developed nations who won't do anything themselves.

 

I think their point is: Why are developed nations (like the US) who won't do anything despite decades of known excess ask developing nations (like china and India) to do something, ergo, more...

 

But I am of the opinion that china is already doing more than the US... but their motivations may be more domestic-social; Unlike the US, I think China will not allow themselves to become hostage to suppliers of oil although they take a much longer view of how to correct this and it may be slower as well to get the country changed.

 

Having lived in India and China, I can tell you that both are vastly polluted. From my eyes alone, the US cannot even compare to their level of these countries' observable per-capita pollution and the after effects of smelly rivers, non-potable drinking water, etc. There simply is no awareness over there that pollution = bad like there is over here.

 

Saying the US is 6 times the polluter of China is a case of inadequate measurement more than anything else. I think overall we pollute more, but would be astounded if it really was 6 times.

 

I recall this summer in Shanghai, going outside with Sunshine. The sky was an ugly brown haze, and one could actually defy my third-grade teacher's advice not to stare at the sun. The haze was so severe that you could stare at it for hours and not be affected!

 

Her words: "Oh, today is sunny!" I laughed.

 

I also recall the stinging in my eyes one spring when I was in Taiyuan, Shanxi province. The smell of sulfur and the heavy pollution was probably similar to London during the early years of the Industrial Age.

 

Okay, I digress. Our velocity of polluting might be greater, but their acceleration is far greater than ours: we may be going faster, but it won't be long before they catch up with us.

 

Finger pointing will not solve anything. China is trying to show they are one of the big players on this planet when it is convenient for them. The truth is, China's Environmental Laws have no teeth, and the penalties for getting caught as a severe polluter are insignificant.

Edited December 12, 2007 by I love Sunshine (see edit history)

[IllinoisDave]

How receptive does anyone think the US would've been in the early 19th Century, after Britain had gone through it's Industrial Revolution, to them telling us: "Hold on now,we had ours,but it's led to increased pollution and a depletion of natural resources,so your Industrial Revolution shouldn't be as fast or as large as ours."? Not too bloody receptive I think.

 

And what if we said to Britain:"Well, why don't you slow down YOUR growth and impose constraints on YOUR industries to lessen the negative impact on the environment. We have just as much right to use the same methods you did to become industrialized don't we?" And they said to us:"Well, that would hurt OUR economy, and we've already polluted the environment and depleted natural resources for decades, but that doesn't mean you should get to do it too."

 

"Up yer Union Jack," we would've said.

[david_dawei]

ILS... good points from the pollution point of view!

 

ID... also good point.

[Corbin]

Here is what I see, if the factory owner saw they could still make the same profit and not pollute they would more than likely go green right then and there. Until then they will either ignore it or state we are working towards going green.

 

Now as for going green with things like our SUV's and the such. The only way you are going to get our Red Blooded Americans to switch is it has to be just like they have now, "Big and powerful, but not cost an arm -n- leg plus first born".

 

The sad fact is if it cost more to be green most I think will not do it.

[Don]

China: West should do more to cope with warming

-------------------

 

I found this very interesting since the message from china is one that I have stated over the last year here, concerning per capita issues...

 

It's a difficult call, but I'd say China is acting like a baby on this one.

 

No matter what you think, though, the concept of Western nations accepting binding cuts while developing countries don't is a non-starter. I doubt it will ever happen.

If I were looking only at this moments issue, I might agree about how china is acting.. but this is the result of years of pushing from developed nations who won't do anything themselves.

 

I think their point is: Why are developed nations (like the US) who won't do anything despite decades of known excess ask developing nations (like china and India) to do something, ergo, more...

 

But I am of the opinion that china is already doing more than the US... but their motivations may be more domestic-social; Unlike the US, I think China will not allow themselves to become hostage to suppliers of oil although they take a much longer view of how to correct this and it may be slower as well to get the country changed.

 

Having lived in India and China, I can tell you that both are vastly polluted. From my eyes alone, the US cannot even compare to their level of these countries' observable per-capita pollution and the after effects of smelly rivers, non-potable drinking water, etc. There simply is no awareness over there that pollution = bad like there is over here.

 

Saying the US is 6 times the polluter of China is a case of inadequate measurement more than anything else. I think overall we pollute more, but would be astounded if it really was 6 times.

 

I recall this summer in Shanghai, going outside with Sunshine. The sky was an ugly brown haze, and one could actually defy my third-grade teacher's advice not to stare at the sun. The haze was so severe that you could stare at it for hours and not be affected!

 

Her words: "Oh, today is sunny!" I laughed.

 

I also recall the stinging in my eyes one spring when I was in Taiyuan, Shanxi province. The smell of sulfur and the heavy pollution was probably similar to London during the early years of the Industrial Age.

 

Okay, I digress. Our velocity of polluting might be greater, but their acceleration is far greater than ours: we may be going faster, but it won't be long before they catch up with us.

 

Finger pointing will not solve anything. China is trying to show they are one of the big players on this planet when it is convenient for them. The truth is, China's Environmental Laws have no teeth, and the penalties for getting caught as a severe polluter are insignificant.

 

Again we are confusing Carbon pollution - CO2 vs SOx, NOx, mercury and others. In the US we did clean up our SOx, NOx, Mercury and others back in the 60s, 70, 80. We are seeing those benefits in the health of our people. We still need to do more with automobiles. China can do those same reductions we and others did to reduce the poisons we added to our environment. This list causes much of the water and air polltion and can cause cilmate change. CO2 is a green house gas that can lead to increase in temperature, but is not a poison to the environment.

[LeeFisher3]

It's called Global Warming not US Warming, solutions should be Global supported and implemented by ALL countries, not just a few.

 

It does seem to be a more common sense idea to deal with the issue and may not get much consideration, let's try to forget that a politician said it, it was probably a phrase they heard from a regular citizen.

 

We should all do our part to make our world a better place to live.

[Cerberus]

China: West should do more to cope with warming

-------------------

 

I found this very interesting since the message from china is one that I have stated over the last year here, concerning per capita issues...

 

It's a difficult call, but I'd say China is acting like a baby on this one.

 

No matter what you think, though, the concept of Western nations accepting binding cuts while developing countries don't is a non-starter. I doubt it will ever happen.

If I were looking only at this moments issue, I might agree about how china is acting.. but this is the result of years of pushing from developed nations who won't do anything themselves.

 

I think their point is: Why are developed nations (like the US) who won't do anything despite decades of known excess ask developing nations (like china and India) to do something, ergo, more...

 

But I am of the opinion that china is already doing more than the US... but their motivations may be more domestic-social; Unlike the US, I think China will not allow themselves to become hostage to suppliers of oil although they take a much longer view of how to correct this and it may be slower as well to get the country changed.

 

Having lived in India and China, I can tell you that both are vastly polluted. From my eyes alone, the US cannot even compare to their level of these countries' observable per-capita pollution and the after effects of smelly rivers, non-potable drinking water, etc. There simply is no awareness over there that pollution = bad like there is over here.

 

Saying the US is 6 times the polluter of China is a case of inadequate measurement more than anything else. I think overall we pollute more, but would be astounded if it really was 6 times.

 

I recall this summer in Shanghai, going outside with Sunshine. The sky was an ugly brown haze, and one could actually defy my third-grade teacher's advice not to stare at the sun. The haze was so severe that you could stare at it for hours and not be affected!

 

Her words: "Oh, today is sunny!" I laughed.

 

I also recall the stinging in my eyes one spring when I was in Taiyuan, Shanxi province. The smell of sulfur and the heavy pollution was probably similar to London during the early years of the Industrial Age.

 

Okay, I digress. Our velocity of polluting might be greater, but their acceleration is far greater than ours: we may be going faster, but it won't be long before they catch up with us.

 

Finger pointing will not solve anything. China is trying to show they are one of the big players on this planet when it is convenient for them. The truth is, China's Environmental Laws have no teeth, and the penalties for getting caught as a severe polluter are insignificant.

ILS

 

I fully agree with you in regard to the water and air pollution. My wife and myself went to Living Water in the City of Chengdu http://www.wellnessgoods.com/garden.asp. The garden was begun with petitions filed by the children who forced political leaders to do something about the quality of the water in Chengdu. Hence, the start of the garden. It is small, but at least it was a start. This is from children?!? Wife's family most esp the 82 year old uncle has remarked that the water is still polluted. However, it is better than 15 years ago.

 

Pity many of our and other countries politicians can't take a hint from children and begin cleanup on a larger scale. I mean any and all countries.

 

In regard to the air pollution, My wife was absent from China since 2005. She returned in 2007 and she should actually see the difference in the Beijing air in 1.5 years. We recently went to LA from San Diego. We arrived in LA and she remarked/questioned whether LA was attempting to match LA air with Beijing air. This is a sad statement for both countries.

 

I was surprised to hear China state that they have been only contributing to bad air for three decades and Western nations have been doing so for a century. This is my IMHO, a definite cop-out. Didn't our mothers raise us believing that if everyone else is doing wrong, that it doesn't give you justification to do wrong.