NY Times Opinion piece on China

[IllinoisDave]

 

BTW, David Brooks hasn’t been selected in the same manner? Here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brooks_(author), for his educational background. Yessss, Australia does use the same selection process as the big schools in the US.

 

 

From Wikpedia: “…Brooks currently is a professor of Australian Literature at the University of Sydney….” Yes folks! D. Brooks doesn’t belong to any corporate structure being a professor and isn’t a team player at the University. After all, his name was simply “drawn from the proverbial hat!”

 

 

Not disagreeing with your analysis but I think you have the wrong David Brooks. This is David Brooks,journalist, not author.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brooks_(journalist)

[Cerberus]

 

BTW, David Brooks hasn’t been selected in the same manner? Here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brooks_(author), for his educational background. Yessss, Australia does use the same selection process as the big schools in the US.

 

 

From Wikpedia: “…Brooks currently is a professor of Australian Literature at the University of Sydney. Yes folks! D. Brooks doesn’t belong to any corporate structure being a professor and isn’t a team player at the University. After all, his name was simply “drawn from the proverbial hat!

 

 

Not disagreeing with your analysis but I think you have the wrong David Brooks. This is David Brooks,journalist, not author.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brooks_(journalist)

Thanks Dave, I indeed do stand corrected. "Gotta start checking my search parameters in the future!" LOL!

 

However, his argument still seems to be a load of sensationalist crapola!

 

Before the Iraq War, Brooks had argued forcefully on moral grounds for American military intervention, echoing the belief of neoconservative commentators and political figures that American and British forces would be welcomed as liberators. However, some of his opinion pieces in the spring of 2004 suggested that he had tempered somewhat his earlier optimism about the war. In 2007, he argued that withdrawing from Iraq would result in 10,000 Iraqi deaths a month, but later admitted on Meet the Press that he had "just picked that 10,000 out of the air."

(Taken from link provided by IllinoisDave)

 

How does a common sense reader know that he didn't withdraw this argument from and I quote... "just picked that 10,000 out of the air."

 

Yahhhhh! This is a man that I could base my entire outlook on the declining Chinese educational process. He must have seen such a huge slice of Chinese culture that all the rest of us and our respective better halves must have missed. I mean after all...our Chinese wives and/or husbands don't know a thing about China and it policies, right? I SAID right?

[david_dawei]

I'm personally not convinced that the article is shedding light on anything new.. it's just a westerner figuring it out for the first time what has been the case for maybe a thousand years or so.

 

I don't see it as saying as much about social order (although I don't disagree with that as an important historical cornerstone), but more about socio-economic progress through socio-academic pressure: That has been their 'way' for a long time.

 

I think the articles is at times naive and presumptuous; how often is a chinese going to feel comfortable to talk [fluently] with a visiting american about the communist party?

 

But his phrase of "meritocratic paternalism" may not be far off.... although now that he's spoken of Shanghai, I'd like to see him visit the 60% of the chinese population in the rural areas.... He may be in for some surprises, but again, not sure that it's anything new again...

[Cerberus]

David

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you and your analyzes. This has been going on for 1000 years in China. In Japan, for approximately the same amount of time as China, Korea with a shorter ¡°cultural¡± history, maybe 500 years, etc, etc.

 

I think one other thing that bothered me, was the author¡¯s naivety as to instilling Confucian patterns of thought with government workers. My wife was a former civil service member, not a member of the CCP, and these values were told to them in weekly briefings by her Cell Leader. My cousin-in-law is a higher-ranking CCP civil service worker in the Sichuan Province with Education. He and I have discussed this issue before in person. His largest lamentation, was that the youth of China pay more attention to MP3¡¯s and fashion than the do to the CCP and Confucian teachings and only care for themselves.

 

Civil Government Tests in China and instilling the paradigm that the person (Govt/civil service) representative has a responsibility to family, his local community the government and their individual, has been ongoing for at least for a 1000 years in China. This learning comes from ancient values, that has been ongoing far longer than the 270 years plus of American Government. (Please realize this is not a knock against the US)

 

This is eloquently pointed out in fiction novels of China (e.g. Manchu and Dynasty, written by Robert Elegant. Sorry, I just recently reread them.), countless soap opera dramas from the same previous countries, all emphasizing civil services administrators and their roles in life, The Four Great Books of Learning and actual recorded history in numerous countries.

 

I suspect that this educational pattern and values will be ongoing for many, many years to come. In fact long after the author and all of us have departed this Earth.

 

That is the reason that I feel that this particular article was sensationalist dribble and extremely poorly researched. Which lead my to my own personal questions;

1) Why was he writing it in the first place and who was he directing the article at?

2) What is he attempting to change in the common society?

3) Why did he take such a stance, with HIS opinion and not have conducted research at the, for lack of a better term, grass-roots level of the Chinese society as a whole?

 

I hope that this thread doesn¡¯t turn political and get locked up by Donahso and/or other moderators. Personally myself, I want to have my wife read it and I want her opinion. I want to use the article as an ignition source for a correct meaningful discussion.

 

Who knows? Perhaps she can educate me further about the Chinese society as a whole, albeit her individual perspective.

 

Dave

[IllinoisDave]

I'm personally not convinced that the article is shedding light on anything new.. it's just a westerner figuring it out for the first time what has been the case for maybe a thousand years or so.

 

I don't see it as saying as much about social order (although I don't disagree with that as an important historical cornerstone), but more about socio-economic progress through socio-academic pressure: That has been their 'way' for a long time.

 

I think the articles is at times naive and presumptuous; how often is a chinese going to feel comfortable to talk [fluently] with a visiting american about the communist party?

 

But his phrase of "meritocratic paternalism" may not be far off.... although now that he's spoken of Shanghai, I'd like to see him visit the 60% of the chinese population in the rural areas.... He may be in for some surprises, but again, not sure that it's anything new again...

 

I think especially as the Olympics approach and as China becomes more and more of a player on the world stage,thus more intertwined with the US, we're going to see more of this type of journalism.

 

I think a lot of the media that's late in getting on the China bandwagon is starting to realize they need to catch up. They'll start having anyone with a keyboard or a microphone chime in with a story about China, whether or not they've even been there or whether they know anything about China or it's culture. "Go watch Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and give me a story about China."

 

Now I don't know if David Brooks has been close enough to China to even get a whiff of a Shanghai dumpling. For all I know, he has. If so he sure didn't bother to look too far under the surface. If not, then his article is just a hint of what's to come I'm afraid.

 

As we all know, the real China and it's people are much more complex and enigmatic than anyone who's never been there can possibly comprehend. Hell, we prove on this site almost daily that it's even hard for some of us who've been there multiple times. But that won't deter editors and news directors from demanding juicy stories on the new "It" topic,reality be damned. In this day of "get their attention in the first 30 seconds or two paragraphs," it's pretty difficult to do a country and culture like China justice. I think some could try a little harder though.

 

The Chicago Tribune for one has done a series of stories about China that seemed to be fairly well done. At least they've actually had reporters in country so at least they make that effort,which is to be applauded I guess. And as I write this ABC News is running the latest in a series of stories about life up and down the Yangtze and the economic disparity between different segments. It seems pretty accurate but who knows?

 

I'm a little conflicted by all this because while I welcome any effort to shed light on a country that I've come to know just a little and like just a lot, if that light is distorted it kind of defeats the purpose.

 

Just my 50 cents or so.

[Cerberus]

IllinoisDave

 

Just using your CFL handle to avoid confusion. I suspect that you may be right. Get the story, get the reader and sell the paper! Screw the consequences! Not all unlike of screaming FIRE in a crowded movie theater.

 

I digress a bit. The Olympics are going to throw the Chinese government a real curve ball. My wife just returned approximately a month and a half ago from China. The prices are almost ludicrously stupid in Beijing and Shanghai, with the oncoming advent of the Olympics. My wife suffered "sticker shock" when going through both cities and had airline lay-overs in both. Fortunately, her city of Chengdu rose with the normal inflation rate, and their opinion is "ho-hum" with the Olympics.

 

I have seen this phenomenon before in Seoul, Korea. Olympics came, money was made, price rose beyond belief. End result: The society in Seoul was changed forever and the prices never lowered.

 

I'm afraid this will happen to China. The situation is exacerbated by sensationalism articles by the author.

 

Might I suggest getting your trips to China in early? Probably already too late.

 

However, I will change the tenure back to the OP

[griz326]

I thought there was substantial truth to the commentary, but considered it similar to the way the rest of the world works just modified for China.

 

John Fairbanks history of China talks about how those who invaded China were eventually absorbed and made Chinese (forgive the gross over-simplification).

 

Some of the Chinese people I've known have told me that China has not changed since the days of the emperor's. That's pretty hard to wrap your head around (especially with some aspects of Mao's rule in the mix), but I've heard that same thing from several of my Chinese friends so there must be something to it. I do not pretend to understand it.

[Tony_onrock]

Depends on who you talk to in China and where you are in this society.

 

Just yesterday, I went shopping in the textile mall in Shanghai. There are loads of people. We loaded our car with comforters, bed sheets, blankets, curtains etc. Really like the product quality as well as the price. Compared with years ago, it is indeed a much improved society for the public in general and for myself. When I left, I was teaching in Beijing with 57 RMB per month in salary and another 200 for teaching English on the side.

Now, I am making almost 30 times more in a day.

 

When I came out, there was a commotion, thought some people were fighting, books, corn, clothing, were all scatered on the floor and in mud. Finally found out what was going on. A woman was crying as her hand got burnt by the hot water when her corn boiling stand was toppled. There was no fight. It was the government market patrol people that were pushing and throwing peddler's goods around.

 

There were many angry people, discussing among themselves. Even illegal pedlers are people but certainly not treated as such.

You can sue the government, the pedlers don't have license. You can't fight them or risk being arrested.

 

It is a nation of oppressed majority and selfish cowards. Well, if the people don't help themselves, no one can.

[GZBILL]

When I came out, there was a commotion, thought some people were fighting, books, corn, clothing, were all scatered on the floor and in mud. Finally found out what was going on. A woman was crying as her hand got burnt by the hot water when her corn boiling stand was toppled. There was no fight. It was the government market patrol people that were pushing and throwing peddler's goods around.

 

There were many angry people, discussing among themselves. Even illegal pedlers are people but certainly not treated as such.

You can sue the government, the pedlers don't have license. You can't fight them or risk being arrested.

 

It is a nation of oppressed majority and selfish cowards. Well, if the people don't help themselves, no one can.

 

If the idiot hawker followed the rules and wasn't there in the first place, she wouldn't have been injured. Shit happens. She ought to get a life.

[Tony_onrock]

If the idiot hawker followed the rules and wasn't there in the first place, she wouldn't have been injured. Shit happens. She ought to get a life.

 

It is easy to say that every one should follow the rule and those poor and helpless people should get a life. Get a life doing what? Work in a factory and earn 800 to 1000 RMB? She is well over 35 with little or no education, will your company employ her?

It sort of reminds me of the poor sales people for Yunnan Bai Yao (a traditional medicine for cuts and burns) in Yunnan that I saw two years ago. They had to burn their hands to show how effective the medicine is! They put on the show for hundreds of people a day but no one, not a single soul raised any objection to how these workers are treated.

At the same location where the poor woman was hawking her goods, a dozen pick pockets work the area, same as Nanjing East Road. The police never did anything. Why? In Shenzhen, ten thousand hookers work the streets, no police action. Why? Every developer play in the grey area and many pay bribes to government officials. Few gets into trouble. Why?

The answer is obvious. The woman who makes a few bucks selling corn does not have the money to pay the bribes, just as the poor sales girls in Yunnan had no connections to get them decent paying jobs without subjecting themselves to bodily harm.

It is not your fight, nor mine, but that does not mean we should act indifferent to the obvious injustice that happens daily to those powerless and poor in the Chinese society.