Yangtze River less tainted than expected

[SirLancelot]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071102/ap_on_...8P0HMAQPbqs0NUE

 

GENEVA - Chinese and Swiss scientists said Friday the Yangtze River is less polluted than expected, but only because the vast amounts of water dilute farm and industrial waste that still pose a serious threat to animals and plants.

 

Environmentalists warned the findings should not be seen as a clean bill of health for the Yangtze, where water quality has continually deteriorated. Because of its large size, the 3,900-mile-long Yangtze cannot be compared to other rivers, they said.

 

Around 25 billion tons of waste is poured every year into the Yangtze, the world's third-largest river, said a joint Chinese-Swiss expedition that analyzed the river's water quality.

 

"While the pollution level is enormous, the concentration of pollutants remains comparable with that of other rivers, given the dilution effect caused by the enormous rate of water flow," said a state

[DMikeS4321]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071102/ap_on_...8P0HMAQPbqs0NUE

 

GENEVA - Chinese and Swiss scientists said Friday the Yangtze River is less polluted than expected, but only because the vast amounts of water dilute farm and industrial waste that still pose a serious threat to animals and plants.

 

Environmentalists warned the findings should not be seen as a clean bill of health for the Yangtze, where water quality has continually deteriorated. Because of its large size, the 3,900-mile-long Yangtze cannot be compared to other rivers, they said.

 

Around 25 billion tons of waste is poured every year into the Yangtze, the world's third-largest river, said a joint Chinese-Swiss expedition that analyzed the river's water quality.

 

"While the pollution level is enormous, the concentration of pollutants remains comparable with that of other rivers, given the dilution effect caused by the enormous rate of water flow," said a state

 

So? The environmentalists are wrong? Again??

[IllinoisDave]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071102/ap_on_...8P0HMAQPbqs0NUE

 

GENEVA - Chinese and Swiss scientists said Friday the Yangtze River is less polluted than expected, but only because the vast amounts of water dilute farm and industrial waste that still pose a serious threat to animals and plants.

 

Environmentalists warned the findings should not be seen as a clean bill of health for the Yangtze, where water quality has continually deteriorated. Because of its large size, the 3,900-mile-long Yangtze cannot be compared to other rivers, they said.

 

Around 25 billion tons of waste is poured every year into the Yangtze, the world's third-largest river, said a joint Chinese-Swiss expedition that analyzed the river's water quality.

 

"While the pollution level is enormous, the concentration of pollutants remains comparable with that of other rivers, given the dilution effect caused by the enormous rate of water flow," said a state

 

So? The environmentalists are wrong? Again??

 

Amazing how you can cherry-pick four words (less polluted than expected) and conclude that the evil environmentalists are wrong again. Geez. Every other word in the article re-inforces the notion that the Yangtze is a dangerously polluted river.

 

Is your hatred for anything environmental so great that you ignore 95% of the facts and use 5% of them to "prove" that environmentalists are the problem?

[SirLancelot]

So? The environmentalists are wrong? Again??

 

 

The non-environmentalists have been equally wrong--if not more--many times.

 

I just thought it was interesting that the pollution was less than expected due to the sheer amount of water that's flowing but as I-Dave points out, it's still very polluted, just not as expected.

[Randy W]

Let's see - they can pollute twice as much when there's twice the water flowing through?

 

They literally do that here in Houston along the ship channel. The monitoring equipment doesn't work when it rains, so they let out as much as they can - you can really smell the difference.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

So? The environmentalists are wrong? Again??

 

 

The non-environmentalists have been equally wrong--if not more--many times.

 

I just thought it was interesting that the pollution was less than expected due to the sheer amount of water that's flowing but as I-Dave points out, it's still very polluted, just not as expected.

 

What is an environmentalist? Let's be clear, everyone in this world picture has an agenda. There are a great many militant groups that would like nothing better than to shut down the world economy in favor of pushing that agenda forward. On the other hand, there are Environmental Engineers who understand that working hand in hand with the planet to reduce toxic emissions, and clean wastewater is important. The key here is to take it one step at a time and celebrate victories and being cautious to minimize the impact upon the economy and culture.

 

The message accompanied with an ongoing alarm about dirty water, dirty air, tainted products was old a long time ago. There are pessimists in life that are incapable of finding the positive in just about anything. These kind of people are just annoying to be around; people don't want to work with them, or for them. Then, there are those that know there is hard work to be done. A daunting task if you will. They celebrate small victories, but yet still notice the formidable task at hand.

 

It's not news that China has issues with the environment. What is news, is that the people of China are learning to work with the many small cities and towns in educating the people to do things differently. My hat is off to them. They are faced with several factories that will fight to keep spigots carrying untreated waste into rivers and streams at all costs.

 

Some of these posts concentrate on bashing the evil businesses and fail to focus on the people and culture. Lance, I appreciate your posts. You've got what I consider a clear perspective and open mind about these issues. You've also got a lot more background than most of us when it comes to Chinese culture.

Edited November 7, 2007 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[Don]

 

Let's see - they can pollute twice as much when there's twice the water flowing through?

 

They literally do that here in Houston along the ship channel. The monitoring equipment doesn't work when it rains, so they let out as much as they can - you can really smell the difference.

 

 

 

companies must report how much they release all the time. The rain is washing the storm sewers out and most of that pollutions is from us. Our yards, the oil some one just changed from the car. Here in SoCal every rain they have to shut down the beaches due to the storm sewers.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

So? The environmentalists are wrong? Again??

 

 

The non-environmentalists have been equally wrong--if not more--many times.

 

I just thought it was interesting that the pollution was less than expected due to the sheer amount of water that's flowing but as I-Dave points out, it's still very polluted, just not as expected.

 

What is an environmentalist? Let's be clear, everyone in this world picture has an agenda. There are a great many militant groups that would like nothing better than to shut down the world economy in favor of pushing that agenda forward. On the other hand, there are Environmental Engineers who understand that working hand in hand with the planet to reduce toxic emissions, and clean wastewater is important. The key here is to take it one step at a time and celebrate victories and being cautious to minimize the impact upon the economy and culture.

 

The message accompanied with an ongoing alarm about dirty water, dirty air, tainted products was old a long time ago. There are pessimists in life that are incapable of finding the positive in just about anything. These kind of people are just annoying to be around; people don't want to work with them, or for them. Then, there are those that know there is hard work to be done. A daunting task if you will. They celebrate small victories, but yet still notice the formidable task at hand.

 

It's not news that China has issues with the environment. What is news, is that the people of China are learning to work with the many small cities and towns in educating the people to do things differently. My hat is off to them. They are faced with several factories that will fight to keep spigots carrying untreated waste into rivers and streams at all costs.

 

Some of these posts concentrate on bashing the evil businesses and fail to focus on the people and culture. Lance, I appreciate your posts. You've got what I consider a clear perspective and open mind about these issues. You've also got a lot more background than most of us when it comes to Chinese culture.

[IllinoisDave]

So? The environmentalists are wrong? Again??

 

 

The non-environmentalists have been equally wrong--if not more--many times.

 

I just thought it was interesting that the pollution was less than expected due to the sheer amount of water that's flowing but as I-Dave points out, it's still very polluted, just not as expected.

 

What is an environmentalist? Let's be clear, everyone in this world picture has an agenda. There are a great many militant groups that would like nothing better than to shut down the world economy in favor of pushing that agenda forward. On the other hand, there are Environmental Engineers who understand that working hand in hand with the planet to reduce toxic emissions, and clean wastewater is important. The key here is to take it one step at a time and celebrate victories and being cautious to minimize the impact upon the economy and culture.

 

The message accompanied with an ongoing alarm about dirty water, dirty air, tainted products was old a long time ago. There are pessimists in life that are incapable of finding the positive in just about anything. These kind of people are just annoying to be around; people don't want to work with them, or for them. Then, there are those that know there is hard work to be done. A daunting task if you will. They celebrate small victories, but yet still notice the formidable task at hand.

 

It's not news that China has issues with the environment. What is news, is that the people of China are learning to work with the many small cities and towns in educating the people to do things differently. My hat is off to them. They are faced with several factories that will fight to keep spigots carrying untreated waste into rivers and streams at all costs.

 

Some of these posts concentrate on bashing the evil businesses and fail to focus on the people and culture. Lance, I appreciate your posts. You've got what I consider a clear perspective and open mind about these issues. You've also got a lot more background than most of us when it comes to Chinese culture.

 

You mention environmentalists in one sentence and in the very next say militants want to shut down the world's economy to push an agenda. If you're connecting the two that's BS and you know it.

 

I'm sick to death of anyone wanting big business or anyone else to do a better job of not polluting the planet for the rest of us labelled as "militants" "radicals" or "tree huggers" in the most derogatory tone possible. Are there ultra radicals who go too far with their advocacy? Yes. Should they be held accountable? Yes. Are there a great many groups of them who want to shut down the world economy? NO

 

I suggest the time has passed for taking one step at a time and being cautious so as to minimize the effect on economy and culture. The polluters have had ample time to clean up their act while being coddled by the pro-business factions. They've been allowed to implement any pollution contols begrudgingly and at their own pace for decades now and all of us are paying for it. Like Detroit stalling safety devices and fuel economy for years while whining "It'll cost too much," polluters claim they can't make a profie if they're forced to clean up the stuff they pump into the environment. So while the planet becomes more and more polluted anti-environmentalists stand on the sidelines saying "Whoa, slow down. We can't go too fast with this lest we harm business." or "They're getting better. No, they really are. I'm not kidding." More BS

 

So you'll have to excuse those "pessimists" among us who don't see the silver lining around that noxious cloud the local factory puts out or the lilies floating around the piles of pig shit in the local stream. That's pretty annoying to be around too. And even more annoying to hear the enablers talk about giving big business,here or in China, more time to get their act together.

 

Don't try to turn this into a China-bashing thread. No one's bashing China and you know it. This is about pollution in a country we've all come to know and love. I'm certain Lance didn't post the article to show what a bad place China. People post articles here all the time about some negative and positive aspects about life in China. 99.9% of them do it because it's of interest to many of us for obvious reasons. All of our hats are off to the people in China who have to deal with this every day of their lives. And they're off as well to whatever business or governmental entities that are trying to improve those lives. But the fact remains that the problem is huge, globally as well as in China. Pointing that out and having a discussion about it doesn't amount to China bashing.

 

"Fail to focus on the people and culture"?!!! How condescending.

What the hell else do you think we're focusing on? Those of us who think China and the rest of the world can do a better job of cleaning up the environment want that done precisely for the people and their cultures! Otherwise, what's the point?

[Don]

I have worked my whole life for big chemical companies. We must remember that the people working there are just like you and I. I think it is very hard to pass something by without some one seeing it. We all live right where these plants are located, no one wants to pollute their back yard. I think it is impossible( at least very hard, too many internal whistle blowers) to cheat on the regulations. The issues are what are the regulations. The big chemical companies at least are not the main ones slowing much of this down, they normally want everyone to have the same rules. The big firms can meet the rules, while the smaller ones might have more trouble. We do not always make the best rules in the world, but things are really improving here in the US. Can we do better; yes. I think that many of the big chemical companies have found that green law changes even help make things cheaper at the right scale and if built that way from the beginning. If we do not think about carbon emissions the US is doing okay, keep doing it but we are on the right path. Let just hope the government does not roll back too many laws to let a large campaign contributor off the hook.

 

One of the big issues is that big chemical is regulated much more than most other places. I know that the flint city burner use to put ~ many many times more waste (like lead, mercury and dioxin) in to the air than any of the companies near by. The city tried to build a new one, but the voters turned it down every time. Who is at fault? We can reduce the waste from companies many more times, but it might not always help. We need to really look at see where waste is coming from and reduce it at every source. We should not stop efforts at big companies, but we need to increase efforts at local and consumer levels. Some industries still have issue, but many are very clean today.

[rogerluli]

So? The environmentalists are wrong? Again??

 

 

The non-environmentalists have been equally wrong--if not more--many times.

 

I just thought it was interesting that the pollution was less than expected due to the sheer amount of water that's flowing but as I-Dave points out, it's still very polluted, just not as expected.

 

What is an environmentalist? Let's be clear, everyone in this world picture has an agenda. There are a great many militant groups that would like nothing better than to shut down the world economy in favor of pushing that agenda forward. On the other hand, there are Environmental Engineers who understand that working hand in hand with the planet to reduce toxic emissions, and clean wastewater is important. The key here is to take it one step at a time and celebrate victories and being cautious to minimize the impact upon the economy and culture.

 

The message accompanied with an ongoing alarm about dirty water, dirty air, tainted products was old a long time ago. There are pessimists in life that are incapable of finding the positive in just about anything. These kind of people are just annoying to be around; people don't want to work with them, or for them. Then, there are those that know there is hard work to be done. A daunting task if you will. They celebrate small victories, but yet still notice the formidable task at hand.

 

It's not news that China has issues with the environment. What is news, is that the people of China are learning to work with the many small cities and towns in educating the people to do things differently. My hat is off to them. They are faced with several factories that will fight to keep spigots carrying untreated waste into rivers and streams at all costs.

 

Some of these posts concentrate on bashing the evil businesses and fail to focus on the people and culture. Lance, I appreciate your posts. You've got what I consider a clear perspective and open mind about these issues. You've also got a lot more background than most of us when it comes to Chinese culture.

 

You mention environmentalists in one sentence and in the very next say militants want to shut down the world's economy to push an agenda. If you're connecting the two that's BS and you know it.

 

I'm sick to death of anyone wanting big business or anyone else to do a better job of not polluting the planet for the rest of us labelled as "militants" "radicals" or "tree huggers" in the most derogatory tone possible. Are there ultra radicals who go too far with their advocacy? Yes. Should they be held accountable? Yes. Are there a great many groups of them who want to shut down the world economy? NO

 

I suggest the time has passed for taking one step at a time and being cautious so as to minimize the effect on economy and culture. The polluters have had ample time to clean up their act while being coddled by the pro-business factions. They've been allowed to implement any pollution contols begrudgingly and at their own pace for decades now and all of us are paying for it. Like Detroit stalling safety devices and fuel economy for years while whining "It'll cost too much," polluters claim they can't make a profie if they're forced to clean up the stuff they pump into the environment. So while the planet becomes more and more polluted anti-environmentalists stand on the sidelines saying "Whoa, slow down. We can't go too fast with this lest we harm business." or "They're getting better. No, they really are. I'm not kidding." More BS

 

So you'll have to excuse those "pessimists" among us who don't see the silver lining around that noxious cloud the local factory puts out or the lilies floating around the piles of pig shit in the local stream. That's pretty annoying to be around too. And even more annoying to hear the enablers talk about giving big business,here or in China, more time to get their act together.

 

Don't try to turn this into a China-bashing thread. No one's bashing China and you know it. This is about pollution in a country we've all come to know and love. I'm certain Lance didn't post the article to show what a bad place China. People post articles here all the time about some negative and positive aspects about life in China. 99.9% of them do it because it's of interest to many of us for obvious reasons. All of our hats are off to the people in China who have to deal with this every day of their lives. And they're off as well to whatever business or governmental entities that are trying to improve those lives. But the fact remains that the problem is huge, globally as well as in China. Pointing that out and having a discussion about it doesn't amount to China bashing.

 

"Fail to focus on the people and culture"?!!! How condescending.

What the hell else do you think we're focusing on? Those of us who think China and the rest of the world can do a better job of cleaning up the environment want that done precisely for the people and their cultures! Otherwise, what's the point?

 

Tell it on the mountain Dave...Excellent thoughts...

[IllinoisDave]

I have worked my whole life for big chemical companies. We must remember that the people working there are just like you and I. I think it is very hard to pass something by without some one seeing it. We all live right where these plants are located, no one wants to pollute their back yard. I think it is impossible( at least very hard, too many internal whistle blowers) to cheat on the regulations. The issues are what are the regulations. The big chemical companies at least are not the main ones slowing much of this down, they normally want everyone to have the same rules. The big firms can meet the rules, while the smaller ones might have more trouble. We do not always make the best rules in the world, but things are really improving here in the US. Can we do better; yes. I think that many of the big chemical companies have found that green law changes even help make things cheaper at the right scale and if built that way from the beginning. If we do not think about carbon emissions the US is doing okay, keep doing it but we are on the right path. Let just hope the government does not roll back too many laws to let a large campaign contributor off the hook.

 

One of the big issues is that big chemical is regulated much more than most other places. I know that the flint city burner use to put ~ many many times more waste (like lead, mercury and dioxin) in to the air than any of the companies near by. The city tried to build a new one, but the voters turned it down every time. Who is at fault? We can reduce the waste from companies many more times, but it might not always help. We need to really look at see where waste is coming from and reduce it at every source. We should not stop efforts at big companies, but we need to increase efforts at local and consumer levels. Some industries still have issue, but many are very clean today.

 

Nice post Don.

I agree with you on pretty much everything. I might take small exception to whether or not it's big business slowing things down, but I see your points. I used "big business" in my post mainly to make my point. Of course all businesses,large and small, should be held to the same standards and regulations.

 

Are we getting better here in the US? Yes. Could we do it faster? Yes, I think we can. My main point is that I think we've given business/industry ample time to put more effective measures in place. And there are too many enablers out there who are, IMHO, too willing to give them as much time as they claim to need to take even the smallest of steps.

[Don]

I have worked my whole life for big chemical companies. We must remember that the people working there are just like you and I. I think it is very hard to pass something by without some one seeing it. We all live right where these plants are located, no one wants to pollute their back yard. I think it is impossible( at least very hard, too many internal whistle blowers) to cheat on the regulations. The issues are what are the regulations. The big chemical companies at least are not the main ones slowing much of this down, they normally want everyone to have the same rules. The big firms can meet the rules, while the smaller ones might have more trouble. We do not always make the best rules in the world, but things are really improving here in the US. Can we do better; yes. I think that many of the big chemical companies have found that green law changes even help make things cheaper at the right scale and if built that way from the beginning. If we do not think about carbon emissions the US is doing okay, keep doing it but we are on the right path. Let just hope the government does not roll back too many laws to let a large campaign contributor off the hook.

 

One of the big issues is that big chemical is regulated much more than most other places. I know that the flint city burner use to put ~ many many times more waste (like lead, mercury and dioxin) in to the air than any of the companies near by. The city tried to build a new one, but the voters turned it down every time. Who is at fault? We can reduce the waste from companies many more times, but it might not always help. We need to really look at see where waste is coming from and reduce it at every source. We should not stop efforts at big companies, but we need to increase efforts at local and consumer levels. Some industries still have issue, but many are very clean today.

 

Nice post Don.

I agree with you on pretty much everything. I might take small exception to whether or not it's big business slowing things down, but I see your points. I used "big business" in my post mainly to make my point. Of course all businesses,large and small, should be held to the same standards and regulations.

 

Are we getting better here in the US? Yes. Could we do it faster? Yes, I think we can. My main point is that I think we've given business/industry ample time to put more effective measures in place. And there are too many enablers out there who are, IMHO, too willing to give them as much time as they claim to need to take even the smallest of steps.

 

I really wish we had same laws for every company, city, state and Federal government. Like labor laws, did you know congress does have to follow them? Many other laws do not apply to various governmental agency. Plus, people; in many places can burn leaves, but if a company produces same amount of dioxin as our one pile of leaves produced they will get in trouble. To continue our reductions, we need to develop a more comprehensive plan for pollution affecting all parts of our lives. Now we have Toplaw and others eating beans; who knows what noxious gasses are coming out. Maybe tax breaks for small clean cars should be expanded. I once did a lab on lead in grass near roads. My professor was keeping the data for many years. Changing gas made a huge improvement, but it took a long time to expand into our whole environment. Big improvement quick close to road, but slow improvement in other areas(it came just slowly). We need to look hard at ourselves, we are a major generator of pollution. How many of us complained about this when it happened?

[SirLancelot]

Don't try to turn this into a China-bashing thread. No one's bashing China and you know it. This is about pollution in a country we've all come to know and love. I'm certain Lance didn't post the article to show what a bad place China. People post articles here all the time about some negative and positive aspects about life in China. 99.9% of them do it because it's of interest to many of us for obvious reasons. All of our hats are off to the people in China who have to deal with this every day of their lives. And they're off as well to whatever business or governmental entities that are trying to improve those lives. But the fact remains that the problem is huge, globally as well as in China. Pointing that out and having a discussion about it doesn't amount to China bashing.

 

I'm caught between Dave's points and SQN's points. I certainly don't like to bash on China needlessly, but I certainly will criticize China when I think it deserves criticism--and there are plenty of times and situations where I feel China needs a lot of criticism: free speech and free press are two big criticisms I have. I'm also very concerned with the environment both in the US and China--hell, all around the world.

 

The reason I'm caught between what Dave and Jesse says is because I have the same lofty goals and ideals that Dave has, but given my economics background, I also understand why practical reality doesn't work out as well as Dave's (or my) ideals. I am an outed liberal Republican. So at the root, I want less government taxation, but I am nevertheless very concerned about the environment. In that arena, I would like to see more, rather than less, regulations to force unwilling and laggard businesses--especially big business--to cooperate with helping to restore the environment to a more pristine state.

 

When you compare the US with China, the US is so much better, but when you compare the US with Europe, we're pretty much laggards by any definition. I know many Americans don't like to be #2 in anything. Many will perpetually insist we're #1 at anything and everything and that we need to listen to no one. Well, I disagree when it comes to the environment. I think Europe is miles ahead in what they've already implemented, as well as the lofty goals they have set for the future. I think it's absolutely critical for the US to at least follow in Europe's footsteps if it won't progressively lead on the environment issues.

 

China needs desperately to improve it's environment for it's people to have a better life in general. That's a given. I tend to be little more understanding of why China is in its current state because as a country with 1.3 billion people, it is still very poor. To be sure, there are newly minted billionaires by the month, if not week, but per capita, China is still very poor. It can't compete directly with Europe, Japan or the US when it comes to environmental ideals. It just can't. I'm not trying to make excuses for them; they simply don't have the money to be very progressive about the environment currently. But they are getting richer and richer as a country with each passing year, and so the Chinese people are starting to demand better.

 

Let me tell you: many, many Chinese people absolutely loathe the fact that much of the products made in China for export is better in quality than those manufactured for domestic consumption. They are livid with anger over this situation. They want change. They are demanding change. And it's coming.

 

I post some news articles from time to time because I find them interesting. China is so huge and diverse. They now have more billionaires than any other country, except for the US. That's amazing. Yet, per capita, they're still very poor. How does anyone reconcile this extreme difference in their heads? I can't. My parents have friends in Shanghai who are multi millionaires who go through Benz, BMW and Audis every couple of years like one goes through fashionable clothing. Yet, we also know relatives and friends who live very humble--considered subsistence level in the US--lifestyles. One can spend $2000 USD on a couple of pounds of "bird's nest" while the other won't even spend $10 on electricity a month. It's just mind boggling the extreme difference in lifestyle.

 

I went back to Shanghai in 2004 to see for myself. Having lived in Shanghai from August 2004 to April 2006, I got to see firsthand how things were/are in Shanghai. I've witness firsthand how decadent the rich live and how frugal and meager the poor live. And this is the richest city in China: Shanghai. I can only extrapolate how worse other less well to do cities treat the poor. There is a huge difference between the poor class of China and the poor class of the US.

 

My point? To expect the poor class--which is huge in China--to zealously care about the environment as much as Europe or the US is just unrealistic. They care about making enough money to feed their children and pay for their schooling and to have a down payment for their children's future home purchase. To worry about clean air and clean water is a luxury right now. Of course they all deserve clear air and clean water, as do all people, but that's just not their priority right now. It's quite evident in the litter/trash that is thrown about by the ordinary people. Every where in China people of all classes throw litter everywhere. All streets are dumping grounds for everyone. So this kind of mentality isn't just pervasive in business, it's everywhere, endorse and condoned by practically all. Until the Chinese people themselves change to demand better of themselves, "big business" certainly isn't going to change. But I think Chinese people are starting to change and demand better, especially the younger generation. It is a fact the youth litter less than the older generation in China. So I do see a brighter future for China eventually.

[IllinoisDave]

I'm caught between Dave's points and SQN's points. I certainly don't like to bash on China needlessly, but I certainly will criticize China when I think it deserves criticism--and there are plenty of times and situations where I feel China needs a lot of criticism: free speech and free press are two big criticisms I have. I'm also very concerned with the environment both in the US and China--hell, all around the world.

 

The reason I'm caught between what Dave and Jesse says is because I have the same lofty goals and ideals that Dave has, but given my economics background, I also understand why practical reality doesn't work out as well as Dave's (or my) ideals. I am an outed liberal Republican. So at the root, I want less government taxation, but I am nevertheless very concerned about the environment. In that arena, I would like to see more, rather than less, regulations to force unwilling and laggard businesses--especially big business--to cooperate with helping to restore the environment to a more pristine state.

 

When you compare the US with China, the US is so much better, but when you compare the US with Europe, we're pretty much laggards by any definition. I know many Americans don't like to be #2 in anything. Many will perpetually insist we're #1 at anything and everything and that we need to listen to no one. Well, I disagree when it comes to the environment. I think Europe is miles ahead in what they've already implemented, as well as the lofty goals they have set for the future. I think it's absolutely critical for the US to at least follow in Europe's footsteps if it won't progressively lead on the environment issues.

 

China needs desperately to improve it's environment for it's people to have a better life in general. That's a given. I tend to be little more understanding of why China is in its current state because as a country with 1.3 billion people, it is still very poor. To be sure, there are newly minted billionaires by the month, if not week, but per capita, China is still very poor. It can't compete directly with Europe, Japan or the US when it comes to environmental ideals. It just can't. I'm not trying to make excuses for them; they simply don't have the money to be very progressive about the environment currently. But they are getting richer and richer as a country with each passing year, and so the Chinese people are starting to demand better.

 

Let me tell you: many, many Chinese people absolutely loathe the fact that much of the products made in China for export is better in quality than those manufactured for domestic consumption. They are livid with anger over this situation. They want change. They are demanding change. And it's coming.

 

I post some news articles from time to time because I find them interesting. China is so huge and diverse. They now have more billionaires than any other country, except for the US. That's amazing. Yet, per capita, they're still very poor. How does anyone reconcile this extreme difference in their heads? I can't. My parents have friends in Shanghai who are multi millionaires who go through Benz, BMW and Audis every couple of years like one goes through fashionable clothing. Yet, we also know relatives and friends who live very humble--considered subsistence level in the US--lifestyles. One can spend $2000 USD on a couple of pounds of "bird's nest" while the other won't even spend $10 on electricity a month. It's just mind boggling the extreme difference in lifestyle.

 

I went back to Shanghai in 2004 to see for myself. Having lived in Shanghai from August 2004 to April 2006, I got to see firsthand how things were/are in Shanghai. I've witness firsthand how decadent the rich live and how frugal and meager the poor live. And this is the richest city in China: Shanghai. I can only extrapolate how worse other less well to do cities treat the poor. There is a huge difference between the poor class of China and the poor class of the US.

 

My point? To expect the poor class--which is huge in China--to zealously care about the environment as much as Europe or the US is just unrealistic. They care about making enough money to feed their children and pay for their schooling and to have a down payment for their children's future home purchase. To worry about clean air and clean water is a luxury right now. Of course they all deserve clear air and clean water, as do all people, but that's just not their priority right now. It's quite evident in the litter/trash that is thrown about by the ordinary people. Every where in China people of all classes throw litter everywhere. All streets are dumping grounds for everyone. So this kind of mentality isn't just pervasive in business, it's everywhere, endorse and condoned by practically all. Until the Chinese people themselves change to demand better of themselves, "big business" certainly isn't going to change. But I think Chinese people are starting to change and demand better, especially the younger generation. It is a fact the youth litter less than the older generation in China. So I do see a brighter future for China eventually.

 

Lance, as usual your unique perspective offers an insight into the mindset of the Chinese people that many of us miss. To expect the Chinese people to be as passionate about a cleaner environment is probably too much to hope for in the short term. As you suggest, maybe the younger generation will pick up the baton and run with it.

 

China's developed at a rate that hasn't allowed many things,like environmental protections, to keep up with industrial and economic expansion. We're probably going to have to give them some time to catch up in this regard as they are relatively new at the whole development thing.

 

We don't have that excuse. As you said, we can do better and we should.

Edited November 8, 2007 by IllinoisDave (see edit history)