Sweat Shop Mickey !!!

[warpedbored]

I'm bothered by the idea that it's always ok to pay what ever the market will bear. Starving and desperate people will take what is offered to them even if it isn't enough to make ends meet. As the article said, China has good laws, they just don't implement them. They should and likely will as more attention is turned toward the problem. Also, no one is forcing the foreign companies to hire the snoops. They are doing it to get better PR. If they have a contract and the manufacturer isn't paying workers what they are supposed to then they are in the right. It is no secret that government officials are routinely bribed to look the other way while people are exploited.

[SirLancelot]

I'm bothered by the idea that it's always ok to pay what ever the market will bear. Starving and desperate people will take what is offered to them even if it isn't enough to make ends meet. As the article said, China has good laws, they just don't implement them. They should and likely will as more attention is turned toward the problem. Also, no one is forcing the foreign companies to hire the snoops. They are doing it to get better PR. If they have a contract and the manufacturer isn't paying workers what they are supposed to then they are in the right. It is no secret that government officials are routinely bribed to look the other way while people are exploited.

 

Carl, I respectively disagree with your very first remark, but everything else in your passage above I pretty much agree.

 

China does have many laws that simply aren't enforced. I also hope eventually there will be more enforcement.

 

Of course everyone would like to make more money and the migrant workers are no different, but I really don't think they're complaining, at least if the alternative is to take away these factory jobs. If you give them the option of having more pay for doing less at the same jobs, yes, they'll take that option of course. But if the option is to close down these factories and they can go back to where they came from, I'm willing to bet that the overwhelming super majority would want to keep their factory jobs, even if they had to do 16 hour days during the Christmas season. Because in the end, it's still better than what they had before.

 

Chinese needs to improve, no doubt about that. Wages are going up and have gone up in fact. But already some factories have been moved to Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia because the cost of labor has increased too much in China. The higher they go the more jobs will be moved out of China to even more poor countries. Despite the migrant workers' desire to seek higher pay, they would be worse off if their jobs departed China completely. It is not an empty threat. Some jobs have already left China. I anticipate more jobs leaving as the wage inevitably increases in China.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

I'm bothered by the idea that it's always ok to pay what ever the market will bear. Starving and desperate people will take what is offered to them even if it isn't enough to make ends meet. As the article said, China has good laws, they just don't implement them. They should and likely will as more attention is turned toward the problem. Also, no one is forcing the foreign companies to hire the snoops. They are doing it to get better PR. If they have a contract and the manufacturer isn't paying workers what they are supposed to then they are in the right. It is no secret that government officials are routinely bribed to look the other way while people are exploited.

 

Is China is the only country in the world that has corruption in government? Surely you don't see lobbyists in the US trying to sway congressional opinions using bribery; do you?

 

Capitalism works. Socialism does not. Cream rises to the top, though in many cases it just takes time. The market will determine the workforce, and the market will determine the wage. If you really want to have an impact on the wages in China, why not lobby to have everyone in America pay more for products? Some have actually tried, by increasing taxes and fees on imports. In the end, you will hurt everyone with these tactics; this includes:

 

1. Those that buy the product

2. Those that work for the company that makes the product

3. The business itself

Edited November 2, 2007 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[Dennis143]

You don't have to go to China to find sweatshops. There are plenty right here in the US. And, quite frankly, the workers are quite happy to have those jobs, IMHO. Plus, they make the choice on how many hours they'll work, as it is often piece work.

 

If you don't want to buy sweatshop products, you can start by making your own clothes.

[warpedbored]

Without regulations there will always be greedy businesses that want to maximize their profits by paying the lowest wage they can regardless of whether or not the business would still be profitable by paying a living wage. This is why American labor unions were started. We have them to thank for the 40 hour work week, over time and child labor laws. The laws are in place in China. They need to be enforced. We have all been there and probably most of us have seen how poor a lot of rural people are. They flock to the cities to try and make a better wage. Just because they are willing to work for such low wages in deplorable conditions doesn't make it alright. Desperate people will do what ever they have to to survive. I see nothing wrong with an American company hiring snoops to make sure the companies they contracted are honoring the terms of the contract which says how much workers are paid and what hours they work. The manufacturers doctor payroll records and force their workers to work longer hours for less money in order to maximize their profits. The Chinese government turns a blind eye. Do you guys honestly believe this is OK as long as the workers are willing?

[rogerluli]

Without regulations there will always be greedy businesses that want to maximize their profits by paying the lowest wage they can regardless of whether or not the business would still be profitable by paying a living wage. This is why American labor unions were started. We have them to thank for the 40 hour work week, over time and child labor laws. The laws are in place in China. They need to be enforced. We have all been there and probably most of us have seen how poor a lot of rural people are. They flock to the cities to try and make a better wage. Just because they are willing to work for such low wages in deplorable conditions doesn't make it alright. Desperate people will do what ever they have to to survive. I see nothing wrong with an American company hiring snoops to make sure the companies they contracted are honoring the terms of the contract which says how much workers are paid and what hours they work. The manufacturers doctor payroll records and force their workers to work longer hours for less money in order to maximize their profits. The Chinese government turns a blind eye. Do you guys honestly believe this is OK as long as the workers are willing?

 

I sure as hell hope nobody thinks it's okay Carl... But there does seem to be a contingent here that believes..."f*ck the poor as long as I've got mine"...

Edited November 2, 2007 by rogerluli (see edit history)

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Without regulations there will always be greedy businesses that want to maximize their profits by paying the lowest wage they can regardless of whether or not the business would still be profitable by paying a living wage. This is why American labor unions were started. We have them to thank for the 40 hour work week, over time and child labor laws. The laws are in place in China. They need to be enforced. We have all been there and probably most of us have seen how poor a lot of rural people are. They flock to the cities to try and make a better wage. Just because they are willing to work for such low wages in deplorable conditions doesn't make it alright. Desperate people will do what ever they have to to survive. I see nothing wrong with an American company hiring snoops to make sure the companies they contracted are honoring the terms of the contract which says how much workers are paid and what hours they work. The manufacturers doctor payroll records and force their workers to work longer hours for less money in order to maximize their profits. The Chinese government turns a blind eye. Do you guys honestly believe this is OK as long as the workers are willing?

 

There are very, very few regulations that have ever helped anyone, that includes the consumer, and the business. There are some in the world that believe busineses should pay for what others refuse to pay. Tax the rich, save the poor? I've worked all my life, and in that time I've never worked for one single poor person.

 

Is there greed on earth? Of course. There are however greedy rich and greedy poor. There are poor in America who collect monthly payments from me and every other taxpayer. Why? Government regulation of course. Someone decided that poor people deserve money too. The trouble is the regulation is incapable of determining who is deserving and who is not; so, even the lazy and unwilling to work collect.

 

The reason there is now business in China where there once was none, is that there is a market for the cheap products they make. You fail to realize the implications of imposing restrictions and controls on business can close the business. It's happening here in America; the largest companies can no longer compete because the GREEDY workers wanted more and more until the company could no longer aford to pay and offer their customers a competitive price.

 

We need LESS control, smaller government, fewer taxes, and more freedom. That will boost the economy and everyone will gain.

Edited November 2, 2007 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[warpedbored]

So it's OK for Chinese manufacturers to pay their workers less and make them work more hours than the contract they signed with the American Company called for? Without regulation there will always be worker exploitation.

[Dennis143]

 

 

I sure as hell hope nobody thinks it's okay Carl... But there does seem to be a contingent here that believes..."f*ck the poor as long as I've got mine"...

I don't think anyone here nor anywhere want to see another person suffer from poor working conditions. Yet, I doubt there is a single person on this site who does not directly benefit from low wages in poor working conditions. Does that make it right? No. What should we do then? Bitch and moan here isn't going to do squat. Nor is sitting in your Chinese made office chair banging away on your Bangladesh made keyboard about how some here say "f**k the poor..." It may make some feel more righteous, but it still don't do squat.

 

I remember when I discovered Leiqin was going to work during the day at a local garment sweatshop. I posted here if I should turn the owner in. It was pretty unanimous that, by doing so, it would ruin the lives of those who were working and trying to eek out a living.

 

Labor in a free market is simply supply and demand. The work will continue to go to whoever is willing to do the work for the lowest wage. Period.

 

Now, with all that being said, I too wish every workplace in every corner of the world was clean, ergonomic, well paying with a family health plan. But, I'm not going to delude myself into believing there's some utopian solution too.

[SirLancelot]

So it's OK for Chinese manufacturers to pay their workers less and make them work more hours than the contract they signed with the American Company called for? Without regulation there will always be worker exploitation.

 

I won't speak for any others, but I agree with what you're saying above Carl.

 

I also agree American companies should send more audit teams to the Chinese factories--and they need to do it without prior notice.

 

As for the idea of unions, I honestly don't believe they'll work now a ways. When America was developing and the idea of unions proliferated, there was no easy way too outsource. But now a days for manufacturing, it's extremely easy to move around. If Chinese wages start becoming too high, the international companies are totally free to move to a less developed and cheaper wage country. You can't imprison them from leaving. I don't think unions could have taken off, even in the US, if outsourcing and offshoring were so readily possible when unions obtain so much power in the past.

 

It's not a good situation, but no law can change that, unless the entire world bands together and gets rid of free trade entirely. No Chinese laws can keep a company invested in China if Chinese wages go up significantly. Just as no American law has been able to keep private companies from offshoring and outsourcing a lot of the American jobs--especially manufacturing jobs. In a free world, a business owner is able to decide if they want to open a company in China, India, Mexico, USA or Laos. You can't force a company to stay in a country.

 

I'm fairly certain the central Chinese government (Beijing) doesn't clamp down very hard on the provincial governments because they know if the cost of labor increases significantly in China then less foreign investments will come into China and some of the international companies already in China will move elsewhere. The central Chinese government certainly doesn't want that. So they don't much about enforcing laws that may already be on the books. It is a sad situation.

 

I believe the US has implemented laws which prohibit a US based company from engaging in bribery/graft even if that bribery/graft takes place in a foreign country. If US companies are caught bribing Chinese officials in China, the US company can be prosecuted in the US.

[Dennis143]

The best that we can do is when we discover major companies or celebrities having foreign sweatshops producing their products (Kathy Lee, Nike...) we, as a group, publicly embarrass and shame them into changing course. I believe, as a nation, we truly don't condone nor want to buy products produced by children or from deplorable working conditions and that we'd be willing to pay more, if we just had some way of knowing...

[pkfops]

What was the US like before Ralph Nadar.

 

Was he liked then and now for that matter.

 

He was a bitter pill to swallow but it got done.

 

All of the toys I liked as a kid are now banned.

 

 

Maybe he should go to China and shake things up.

[GZBILL]

I believe, as a nation, we truly don't condone nor want to buy products produced by children or from deplorable working conditions and that we'd be willing to pay more, if we just had some way of knowing...

 

Pay? People drive 5 miles to their nearest Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Discount City to save three cents on a loaf of bread. Incredibly naive to think people will pay more for a shirt that has a sticker saying "No slave labor used in producing this shirt." Incredibly naive.

[IllinoisDave]

I believe, as a nation, we truly don't condone nor want to buy products produced by children or from deplorable working conditions and that we'd be willing to pay more, if we just had some way of knowing...

 

Pay? People drive 5 miles to their nearest Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Discount City to save three cents on a loaf of bread. Incredibly naive to think people will pay more for a shirt that has a sticker saying "No slave labor used in producing this shirt." Incredibly naive.

 

Couldn't hurt to try for a change.

[SirLancelot]

I know I'm going to get shit for what I'm going to say, but so be it. It's never stopped me before.

 

I went to Whole Foods Market today. This was my first time ever going to Whole Foods. I took my wife to see this monstrosity. I knew before going there that it would be a place full of absolute decadence and extreme prices for food and I wasn't disappointed. It absolutely amazes me how outlandishly expensive food (organic) prices are there. They had ready-to-cook crab cakes at $5.99/oz! That's right, not $5.99/lb but OZ! There's 16 OZ to a pound, so that's $95.84/lb or 718.8RMB/pound for crab cakes.

 

Everything single thing there is so outrageously expensive that it made me puke. I don't care how local or organic the produce and food are, there's no fracking way to justify the cost of these foods. Along the way, there is an entire industry of people being way overpaid with "living wages" and other artificial price level to eventually produce the outlandish prices that is demanded of the final consumer at WFM. But the amazing thing is, there's TONS of people at WFM. It wasn't empty. It was crowded as hell. It absolutely amazes me.

 

So I can definitely argue against GZBill's point "Incredibly naive to think people will pay more for a shirt that has a sticker saying "No slave labor used in producing this shirt." Incredibly naive.". Certain kinds of people will definitely pay the premium as indicated by the abundance of patrons at WFM, but a bigger majority will not pay--as demonstrated by shoppers at Wal-Mart and Costco.

 

Indeed, with Whole Foods Market and Wal-Mart/Costco in existence in the same country--and in fact same city--it's pretty amazing to see the amount of free choice and free market at work.

 

Carl and Dennis are free to cough up the extra dough to support people who demand a "living wage" but others are free to support the poorer folks around the world who are content with $100/USD month.

 

The free market does work. WFM is thriving. Wal-Mart has not crushed WFM. There is a choice.

Edited November 5, 2007 by SirLancelot (see edit history)