Pollution responsibilty...A shared problem...

[Gordon]

Nobody is twisting China's arm to make these goods that we purchase.

nobody is twisting their arms.. just begging will do.. consider the "outsource" problem going now right now... goods and services...

China's wealth has risen greatly since we started purchasing all these goods from them. Will you deny this? They can spend some of that money for their ecological problems. Their greed is the problem.

[david_dawei]

Nobody is twisting China's arm to make these goods that we purchase.

nobody is twisting their arms.. just begging will do.. consider the "outsource" problem going now right now... goods and services...

China's wealth has risen greatly since we started purchasing all these goods from them. Will you deny this? They can spend some of that money for their ecological problems. Their greed is the problem.

They do... maybe you are not reading about it in the US based papers... if you want to know what goes on in china, don't rely on the US to tell you.

 

Greed is a human problem...

[Gordon]

Nobody is twisting China's arm to make these goods that we purchase.

nobody is twisting their arms.. just begging will do.. consider the "outsource" problem going now right now... goods and services...

China's wealth has risen greatly since we started purchasing all these goods from them. Will you deny this? They can spend some of that money for their ecological problems. Their greed is the problem.

They do... maybe you are not reading about it in the US based papers... if you want to know what goes on in china, don't rely on the US to tell you.

 

Greed is a human problem...

Of course there you go attacking America again. Yes, I have read that China is starting to address their pollution problems. Where did I hear about this? Well here in America. What do know about that?

 

Also you try to make it sound like I am saying there is greed only in China. I know you read my earlier posts on this subject David where I said the US is guilty of this also. You try to pick out one line from a post and make a point out of it, but when you do you take it out of context with the rest of the post.

[david_dawei]

Nobody is twisting China's arm to make these goods that we purchase.

nobody is twisting their arms.. just begging will do.. consider the "outsource" problem going now right now... goods and services...

China's wealth has risen greatly since we started purchasing all these goods from them. Will you deny this? They can spend some of that money for their ecological problems. Their greed is the problem.

They do... maybe you are not reading about it in the US based papers... if you want to know what goes on in china, don't rely on the US to tell you.

 

Greed is a human problem...

Of course there you go attacking America again. Yes, I have read that China is starting to address their pollution problems. Where did I hear about this? Well here in America. What do know about that?

 

Also you try to make it sound like I am saying there is greed only in China. I know you read my earlier posts on this subject David where I said the US is guilty of this also. You try to pick out one line from a post and make a point out of it, but when you do you take it out of context with the rest of the post.

You can read that china is doing something without having to be dependent on US telling you... but that's your choice.

 

Since you want to characterize my 'attacking' the US.. it's so typical a response... I'm talking about expanding one's exposure... but I'll leave this alone now since I know where your coming from...

[rogerluli]

If I follow the authors thought process we should expect that by purchasing a steak in a restaurant we should be responsible for the proper disposal of all manure and other by products generated by the original animal and if it ended up on someones front porch we should be forced to pay to have it removed and disposed of properly, not to mention the mental and emotional damages caused to the owner of the porch or anyone who came in close proximity of the offensive material.

 

I believe that my responsibility in such a case is over when I pay what the price requested for the steak, those who raised the cow, butchered the cow, packaged the beef, shipped it to the restaurant and prepared it for my consumption are each responsible for their part of the process.

 

To expect the final consumer to be responsible for anything other than the price they agreed to pay to the seller is absurd. If we also believe in cause and effect as a method to derive responsibility this could be carried back to the original animal that conceived the species and further more on to the creator of that animal.

 

Using the same logic as the authors any post on the Internet that causes someone anguish is the original posters liability and they should make their contact information available for any and all financial claims for the distress caused by the original post as well as responses that post generated which may have caused additional harm.

 

So Roger could be personally and financially responsible for any reader who believes you have harmed Sheep by your stance as a Goat.

 

Once we begin to follow the slippery slope of responsibility it has no end, each person, business or country has their own responsibility for their action or actions and attempts to place their responsibility on others is less than honest.

 

I shot an arrow into the air, it fell to earth I know not where.

 

If it happened to go through your head, tough luck sucker...

But isn't this the American tradition of refusing to accept responsiblity for your own direct actions?

 

Yes in a way it is Lee...BUT...

 

Pollution is a global problem...

 

The US and the other developed Western powers have benefited greatly by being able to buy products produced by cheap labor in the undeveloped world...

 

Isn't it only fair for those developed nations to now LEAD the way in reducing pollution on a global scale???

[rogerluli]

Of course the ugly heads of the United States bashers have reared again.

 

 

Laopo says my head is quite lovely Gordon... so take that...

Edited October 23, 2007 by rogerluli (see edit history)

[Gordon]

Of course the ugly heads of the United States bashers have reared again.

 

 

Laopo says my head is quite lovely Gordon... so take that...

I didn't mean YOUR head Roger. It IS quite lovely

[IllinoisDave]

Are US apologist's heads considered ugly?

They're just as guilty of knee-jerk,reactionary defense of the US as they consider those who point out the ugly facts are.

[Gordon]

Are US apologist's heads considered ugly?

They're just as guilty of knee-jerk,reactionary defense of the US as they consider those who point out the ugly facts are.

The answer to your first question David is....yes...but I am not an apologist.

 

The second statement is not relevant if you are directing it towards the way I believe. As I have already stated in this topic, America has made the same mistakes about pollution as most other nations. We have paid the price for our misdoings and will continue for many years. I do not know of another country that has benefitted from our productivity and resultant pollution problems, step up and help us with our issues. If they have, it was from technology that helps curb pollution. And I am sure it was not given to us for free. In a perfect world I would say, ah, what the hell, let's spend as much money as it takes to take care of their problems. But from past experience we know that many times, this causes even more problems. Kind of reminds me of our own welfare system, if you catch my drift.

 

Polluting countries have to burden themselves with their polluting ways. There are smart men that live in these countries. They know what they are doing. If they care is another thing. The US throwing money at them is not going to speed their moral change. They have to hear the cries of their own people like was done in our own country before things will change. Yes the pollution affects the entire world but you cannot force your neighbor to clean the dogshit off his lawn.

 

Does this sound kneejerk to you?

[Guest Rob & Jin]

If I follow the authors thought process we should expect that by purchasing a steak in a restaurant we should be responsible for the proper disposal of all manure and other by products generated by the original animal and if it ended up on someones front porch we should be forced to pay to have it removed and disposed of properly, not to mention the mental and emotional damages caused to the owner of the porch or anyone who came in close proximity of the offensive material.

 

I believe that my responsibility in such a case is over when I pay what the price requested for the steak, those who raised the cow, butchered the cow, packaged the beef, shipped it to the restaurant and prepared it for my consumption are each responsible for their part of the process.

 

To expect the final consumer to be responsible for anything other than the price they agreed to pay to the seller is absurd. If we also believe in cause and effect as a method to derive responsibility this could be carried back to the original animal that conceived the species and further more on to the creator of that animal.

 

Using the same logic as the authors any post on the Internet that causes someone anguish is the original posters liability and they should make their contact information available for any and all financial claims for the distress caused by the original post as well as responses that post generated which may have caused additional harm.

 

So Roger could be personally and financially responsible for any reader who believes you have harmed Sheep by your stance as a Goat.

 

Once we begin to follow the slippery slope of responsibility it has no end, each person, business or country has their own responsibility for their action or actions and attempts to place their responsibility on others is less than honest.

 

I shot an arrow into the air, it fell to earth I know not where.

 

If it happened to go through your head, tough luck sucker...

But isn't this the American tradition of refusing to accept responsiblity for your own direct actions?

 

Yes in a way it is Lee...BUT...

 

Pollution is a global problem...

 

The US and the other developed Western powers have benefited greatly by being able to buy products produced by cheap labor in the undeveloped world...

 

Isn't it only fair for those developed nations to now LEAD the way in reducing pollution on a global scale???

 

I really dont see that it is a "counties" responsibility of fault. In other words why should taxpayers have to pay for the mess created by greedy corporations, who choose dirty production methods (because it increases their profits). they make the mess they should clean it up at their cost.

[SirLancelot]

Of course the ugly heads of the United States bashers have reared again.

 

Nobody is twisting China's arm to make these goods that we purchase. They knew they were polluting their environment when they started making all these goods. It was their choice to do so. It is going to have to be their choice to clean it up.

 

At one time here in the US, we unabashadly dumped crap into our rivers and skys. We were making goods that were being shipped all over the world. Did we expect other countries to come here and clean up our mess. We are still polluting but it has been curtailed greatly with the onset of awareness and new technologies (and conscience). As with all people there is a learning curve that has to take place. China is twenty years behind us in their learning curve. They are learning, but like us, greed makes the lessons take a back seat for awhile. We should certainly help by offering them access to new technologies that help curb pollution. Access that they will have to pay for.

 

The only part of your argument that stands is the part about this entire process being not forced upon China. That is true. To the extent that there's no military parked offshore of China's seas and ready to assault if they don't capitulate, China has the option to stop being the world's manufacturing plant.

 

But at best, it's a misleading argument. It's like saying a 13 year old girl has a choice--and fully understands the repercussions and ramifications--of engaging in sexual activity and pregnancy. Does she have free will? Yes. Does she completely and fully understand her choice and actions? I think not. So it is with China. She had an illusion of free choice, but had no idea of the real consequences.

 

It'll be interesting to see how American's bitch--especially those on the west coast--when more of China's pollution turn up in CA. Already, some of China's pollution have already made its way across the Pacific Ocean and made it to various parts of western Canada and the western US states including CA.

 

I guess China should just tell the Americans: Tough shit. Deal with it. It's not their concern as it's not on their soil once it reaches the US.

[IllinoisDave]

Does this sound kneejerk to you?

 

When you accuse others of "attacking" or "bashing" the US simply because they point out the possible hypocrisy in our policy or complicity in the polluting of the planet, then yes, it sounds kneejerk.

 

The points you've made are legitimate and worthy of being heard. But so are the ones made by others who've chosen to see where the other shoe drops.

 

You could've made your points without resorting to insinuations of others being unpatriotic.

[griz326]

Having grown up in Pittsburgh, PA I know well that the 3 rivers had to die and the air had to make people sick before industry budged .

 

At every turn, American industry attempted (and still attempts) to evade environmental law. Industry leaders figured out that the easiest way to evade environmental law was to export American jobs .

 

Attrition has done as much to clean up the US environment as legislation.

 

You are dealing with the bottomline. Greedy businesspeople and crooked government officials around the world smell blood in the water and are circling to get their portion of the profits. None of them give a hoot about the health of the Chinese people, the condition of the planet or anything other than lining their pockets; they don't care if every Chinese citizen gets cancer as long as they don't die before their kids can take their place on the assembly line.

 

That's exactly what happened in Pittsburgh where an extraordinarily high percentage of people in my age bracket and older get/got cancer (because of breathing polluted air, drinking polluted water and living the lifestyle of the period) during the great industrial age.

[LeeFisher3]

Yes in a way it is Lee...BUT...

 

Pollution is a global problem...

 

The US and the other developed Western powers have benefited greatly by being able to buy products produced by cheap labor in the undeveloped world...

 

Isn't it only fair for those developed nations to now LEAD the way in reducing pollution on a global scale???

I agree the more developed nations should lead the way.

 

I do have an issue with the more developed nations being held responsible for pollution created in other countries. We can try to help them understand, but turning the remainder of the world into a pollution welfare state is more than I can accept as our responsibility.

[rogerluli]

Yes in a way it is Lee...BUT...

 

Pollution is a global problem...

 

The US and the other developed Western powers have benefited greatly by being able to buy products produced by cheap labor in the undeveloped world...

 

Isn't it only fair for those developed nations to now LEAD the way in reducing pollution on a global scale???

I agree the more developed nations should lead the way.

 

I do have an issue with the more developed nations being held responsible for pollution created in other countries. We can try to help them understand, but turning the remainder of the world into a pollution welfare state is more than I can accept as our responsibility.

 

Well Lee we AIN'T leading...we're running the other way as far as I can see...