Pollution responsibilty...A shared problem...

[SinoTexas]

For the record, I'll say it again, China's environmental problems are atrocious. They desperately need to change and improve their environmental record. But also understand that China opened up only 25+ years ago. America's had at least 100 years of being an advanced industrialized nation. If you expect China to be on par with the US in every way in 2007, that's delusional.

 

Given its overall economic prosperity for the short 25+ years that it's opened up to the West, I think it's done a remarkable job.

 

Lance, your statement is valid as to the time frame but you are looking at it in a very narrow scope. In the 25 years that you talk about, the technology that could have prevented or at least had a major impact in reducing the environmental issues facing China, was globally available. Additionally, environmental regulations could have been implemented based on what was happening with the global community. That road was not taken by China for a variety of issues of which I'll not take the time to comment. Environmentally Lance, it's done a lousy job and is doing nothing to improve the situation

 

At this point, I'll step off my soap box and I'll leave it to the experts here to deal with it. Good luck.

 

As aye,

 

Jim

[SinoTexas]

In part, the report will ultimately say that in the amounts and for the short term, we see know harmful affects of the food to Western visitors.

you had me until this point...

 

So... if it's not done by american standards, it's harmful around the world?

 

That reminds me of the 'lead' issue in the items imported... I finally read that the lead is not harmful, just illegal

David, come on....lead is not harmful???

 

As aye,

 

Jim

[Thomas Promise]

In part, the report will ultimately say that in the amounts and for the short term, we see know harmful affects of the food to Western visitors.

you had me until this point...

 

So... if it's not done by american standards, it's harmful around the world?

 

That reminds me of the 'lead' issue in the items imported... I finally read that the lead is not harmful, just illegal

David, come on....lead is not harmful???

 

As aye,

 

Jim

Look what Viagra did for lead in the pencil

[SirLancelot]

For the record, I'll say it again, China's environmental problems are atrocious. They desperately need to change and improve their environmental record. But also understand that China opened up only 25+ years ago. America's had at least 100 years of being an advanced industrialized nation. If you expect China to be on par with the US in every way in 2007, that's delusional.

 

Given its overall economic prosperity for the short 25+ years that it's opened up to the West, I think it's done a remarkable job.

 

Lance, your statement is valid as to the time frame but you are looking at it in a very narrow scope. In the 25 years that you talk about, the technology that could have prevented or at least had a major impact in reducing the environmental issues facing China, was globally available. Additionally, environmental regulations could have been implemented based on what was happening with the global community. That road was not taken by China for a variety of issues of which I'll not take the time to comment. Environmentally Lance, it's done a lousy job and is doing nothing to improve the situation

 

At this point, I'll step off my soap box and I'll leave it to the experts here to deal with it. Good luck.

 

As aye,

 

Jim

 

Jim, you certainly are well qualified to comment on this topic. I wish you would continue.

 

I agree with you that the technology was available, just as better medical technology was available to help the sick, but China was poor. Even today in 2007, it's poor. By looking solely at it's 1.4trillion USD reserve and insisting that China is rich enough completely misses the bigger picture as to how poor China really is. With 1.3 billion people, a 1.4trillion USD reserve is nothing. Per capita income is abysmally low as compared to the US or Western Europe.

 

Here's a chart from The World Bank for 2004:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_hist...ginning_in_1982

 

How can anyone expect China to adopt the latest and greatest technologies to deal with the environmental problem in the 80's or 90's when they were just starting to come of age. Even in the 90's there were still people in the countryside who were lacking basic foodstuff.

 

Environmental pollution is really a problem of the rich. Poor people who can't get enough to eat don't care about getting lung cancer 10 or 20 years later. They're too worried about getting enough food or clothing on their backs for tomorrow. To criticize China when it was just beginning to develop/industrialize is to criticize a poor person who can barely afford a Yugo why they didn't purchase a Prius. The very simple answer is that they couldn't afford the better technologies. Of course China could have done better and can do better. But it simply doesn't have the money that many of you may think it has.

 

And I'm the first one to criticize China for spending unnecessary money on their space program. It is indeed a waste of good resources when they're so poor. The money could have been spent on better medical technology and facilities for all its citizenry.

 

I'm also the first one to criticize and lament the fact that China did not leap forward and bypass the oil/gas technology when introducing their automobile infrastructure. They could have directly jumped to the next generation of technology and built infrastructure around the country to support that next generation of fuel, but instead it adopted the tried and true but very polluting petrol based infrastructure. I wish it adopted a newer technology, but I also realize that they couldn't afford to jump directly to the next generation at the time the infrastructure was being developed.

 

Another sad fact is this: China has a very hard time collecting taxes from its citizens. Authoritarian governments may adeptly quell protests or riots and may easily suppress freedom or speech or press, but it actually has a very hard time collecting taxes that the citizenry feels are collected by corrupt officials or a corrupt government. The citizenry tries very hard at every step of the way to circumvent the paying of taxes that are required from them.

 

So much of the infrastructure the US takes for granted--or Americans take for granted--have been built out during the past 90 years. The rule of law is solid in the US. Our IRS is quite adept at collecting taxes. China simply hasn't reached that stage yet. In time I hope and expect they will, but it's going to take a while. At least another 25-50 years.

 

I think the world expects too much of China. It takes time for people to change and adapt, not just the government. It's going to take a while for the Chinese people to adapt to the international standards.

 

IP piracy is just one little example of the people of China not wanting to cooperate with foreign demands--not the government of China refusing to cooperate. You will need to win the minds and hearts of the Chinese people, not just the government before any structural change can truly be implemented.

 

I believe there is big demand from the people now to change and better the environment, so I think there will be change coming. Still, it's a matter of funding and growth. The ability for them to truly improve is constrained by those two factors. In the end, China is still poor and they're still rapidly developing/expanding economically.

[Dennis143]

In the end, China is still poor and they're still rapidly developing/expanding economically.

hmmm...

 

I just heard today that China will overtake Germany as number 3 in the world in economic power.

[Gordon]

Jim, you certainly are well qualified to comment on this topic. I wish you would continue.

 

I agree with you that the technology was available, just as better medical technology was available to help the sick, but China was poor. Even today in 2007, it's poor. By looking solely at it's 1.4trillion USD reserve and insisting that China is rich enough completely misses the bigger picture as to how poor China really is. With 1.3 billion people, a 1.4trillion USD reserve is nothing. Per capita income is abysmally low as compared to the US or Western Europe.

 

Here's a chart from The World Bank for 2004:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_hist...ginning_in_1982

 

How can anyone expect China to adopt the latest and greatest technologies to deal with the environmental problem in the 80's or 90's when they were just starting to come of age. Even in the 90's there were still people in the countryside who were lacking basic foodstuff.

 

Environmental pollution is really a problem of the rich. Poor people who can't get enough to eat don't care about getting lung cancer 10 or 20 years later. They're too worried about getting enough food or clothing on their backs for tomorrow. To criticize China when it was just beginning to develop/industrialize is to criticize a poor person who can barely afford a Yugo why they didn't purchase a Prius. The very simple answer is that they couldn't afford the better technologies. Of course China could have done better and can do better. But it simply doesn't have the money that many of you may think it has.

 

And I'm the first one to criticize China for spending unnecessary money on their space program. It is indeed a waste of good resources when they're so poor. The money could have been spent on better medical technology and facilities for all its citizenry.

 

I'm also the first one to criticize and lament the fact that China did not leap forward and bypass the oil/gas technology when introducing their automobile infrastructure. They could have directly jumped to the next generation of technology and built infrastructure around the country to support that next generation of fuel, but instead it adopted the tried and true but very polluting petrol based infrastructure. I wish it adopted a newer technology, but I also realize that they couldn't afford to jump directly to the next generation at the time the infrastructure was being developed.

 

Another sad fact is this: China has a very hard time collecting taxes from its citizens. Authoritarian governments may adeptly quell protests or riots and may easily suppress freedom or speech or press, but it actually has a very hard time collecting taxes that the citizenry feels are collected by corrupt officials or a corrupt government. The citizenry tries very hard at every step of the way to circumvent the paying of taxes that are required from them.

 

So much of the infrastructure the US takes for granted--or Americans take for granted--have been built out during the past 90 years. The rule of law is solid in the US. Our IRS is quite adept at collecting taxes. China simply hasn't reached that stage yet. In time I hope and expect they will, but it's going to take a while. At least another 25-50 years.

 

I think the world expects too much of China. It takes time for people to change and adapt, not just the government. It's going to take a while for the Chinese people to adapt to the international standards.

 

IP piracy is just one little example of the people of China not wanting to cooperate with foreign demands--not the government of China refusing to cooperate. You will need to win the minds and hearts of the Chinese people, not just the government before any structural change can truly be implemented.

 

I believe there is big demand from the people now to change and better the environment, so I think there will be change coming. Still, it's a matter of funding and growth. The ability for them to truly improve is constrained by those two factors. In the end, China is still poor and they're still rapidly developing/expanding economically.

 

Good point Lance. I think you might have something there.

 

<fixed quote>

Edited October 26, 2007 by LeeFisher3 (see edit history)

[SirLancelot]

In the end, China is still poor and they're still rapidly developing/expanding economically.

hmmm...

 

I just heard today that China will overtake Germany as number 3 in the world in economic power.

 

Dennis, by absolute numbers, China seems economically powerful, but when you take into account that China has 1300 mil people and Germany has 87mil people, China looks abysmally weak. When you break down total economic power to per capita, China isn't even on the Top 100 list, nevermind the Top 10 or Top 3 list.

 

It's a little bit like this.

 

Our two househould income may be $150K/year, but in your household only you need to work to bring in $150k/year.

 

In my househould, perhaps there's a total of 10 family members all working together making $15,500/year, with a combined household income of $155K/year. So we may seem like we have more household income per year, but in actuality, per capita income we're poor as dirt compared to you.

Edited October 26, 2007 by SirLancelot (see edit history)

[Guest hi5pro]

In the end, China is still poor and they're still rapidly developing/expanding economically.

hmmm...

 

I just heard today that China will overtake Germany as number 3 in the world in economic power.

 

Dennis, by absolute numbers, China seems economically powerful, but when you take into account that China has 1300 mil people and Germany has 87mil people, China looks abysmally weak. When you break down total economic power to per capita, China isn't even on the Top 100 list, nevermind the Top 10 or Top 3 list.

 

It's a little bit like this.

 

Our two househould income may be $150K/year, but in your household only you need to work to bring in $150k/year.

 

In my househould, perhaps there's a total of 10 family members all working together making $15,500/year, with a combined household income of $155K/year. So we may seem like we have more household income per year, but in actuality, per capita income we're poor as dirt compared to you.

I totally agree!!

The majority in China are still very poor. Lulu once pointed to the Chin Why River in Nanjing and ask me "Do you know why the color of the river is so blue?" , "Because China are so poor and we are willing to kill our river for dyeing the blue jeans for US."

 

Best wishes,

 

Gino & Lulu

[Guest Rob & Jin]

In the end, China is still poor and they're still rapidly developing/expanding economically.

hmmm...

 

I just heard today that China will overtake Germany as number 3 in the world in economic power.

 

Dennis, by absolute numbers, China seems economically powerful, but when you take into account that China has 1300 mil people and Germany has 87mil people, China looks abysmally weak. When you break down total economic power to per capita, China isn't even on the Top 100 list, nevermind the Top 10 or Top 3 list.

 

It's a little bit like this.

 

Our two househould income may be $150K/year, but in your household only you need to work to bring in $150k/year.

 

In my househould, perhaps there's a total of 10 family members all working together making $15,500/year, with a combined household income of $155K/year. So we may seem like we have more household income per year, but in actuality, per capita income we're poor as dirt compared to you.

 

And ask your selves who sold them all the outdated polluting technology?

[david_dawei]

In the end, China is still poor and they're still rapidly developing/expanding economically.

hmmm...

 

I just heard today that China will overtake Germany as number 3 in the world in economic power.

 

Dennis, by absolute numbers, China seems economically powerful, but when you take into account that China has 1300 mil people and Germany has 87mil people, China looks abysmally weak. When you break down total economic power to per capita, China isn't even on the Top 100 list, nevermind the Top 10 or Top 3 list.

 

It's a little bit like this.

 

Our two househould income may be $150K/year, but in your household only you need to work to bring in $150k/year.

 

In my househould, perhaps there's a total of 10 family members all working together making $15,500/year, with a combined household income of $155K/year. So we may seem like we have more household income per year, but in actuality, per capita income we're poor as dirt compared to you.

My GOD! Finally someone uses a 'per capita' argument... I'm stunned that the most basic logic can infiltrate CFL... and be so ignored by so many others...

 

@Jim: the lead argument is that the import restriction is because it is illegal... that's the basis of the restriction (not that it's harmful; if's only harmful if ingested to certain levels).

[Guest Rob & Jin]

In the end, China is still poor and they're still rapidly developing/expanding economically.

hmmm...

 

I just heard today that China will overtake Germany as number 3 in the world in economic power.

 

Dennis, by absolute numbers, China seems economically powerful, but when you take into account that China has 1300 mil people and Germany has 87mil people, China looks abysmally weak. When you break down total economic power to per capita, China isn't even on the Top 100 list, nevermind the Top 10 or Top 3 list.

 

It's a little bit like this.

 

Our two househould income may be $150K/year, but in your household only you need to work to bring in $150k/year.

 

In my househould, perhaps there's a total of 10 family members all working together making $15,500/year, with a combined household income of $155K/year. So we may seem like we have more household income per year, but in actuality, per capita income we're poor as dirt compared to you.

My GOD! Finally someone uses a 'per capita' argument... I'm stunned that the most basic logic can infiltrate CFL... and be so ignored by so many others...

 

@Jim: the lead argument is that the import restriction is because it is illegal... that's the basis of the restriction (not that it's harmful; if's only harmful if ingested to certain levels).

 

Makes sense I think

[LeeFisher3]

My GOD! Finally someone uses a 'per capita' argument... I'm stunned that the most basic logic can infiltrate CFL... and be so ignored by so many others...

 

@Jim: the lead argument is that the import restriction is because it is illegal... that's the basis of the restriction (not that it's harmful; if's only harmful if ingested to certain levels).

Obviously you forgot about the other lead poisoning, projectile type, which is more common in the US and is also illegal.

[griz326]

It may be true but this really sounds bogus.

 

>>>Of the tens of thousands of random samples analyzed, not one, I'll repeat NOT ONE sample met the minimal standards as set by the US FDA (which was the bench mark for food analysis). Pretty scary stuff.

 

It might be more believable if we knew which minimal FDA standards are being referred to; or if there was a comparison with "tens of thousands of random samples" from American restaurants. As stated it sounds as if the FDA standards being applied are specious.

 

...as for pollution...

 

China is an emerging nation; emerging takes time.

 

In 20 - 40 years China will not only have a handle on the pollution problem, but her people will be making more money and China's economic, technological and military standing will likely surpass the US.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

In the end, China is still poor and they're still rapidly developing/expanding economically.

hmmm...

 

I just heard today that China will overtake Germany as number 3 in the world in economic power.

 

Dennis, by absolute numbers, China seems economically powerful, but when you take into account that China has 1300 mil people and Germany has 87mil people, China looks abysmally weak. When you break down total economic power to per capita, China isn't even on the Top 100 list, nevermind the Top 10 or Top 3 list.

 

It's a little bit like this.

 

Our two househould income may be $150K/year, but in your household only you need to work to bring in $150k/year.

 

In my househould, perhaps there's a total of 10 family members all working together making $15,500/year, with a combined household income of $155K/year. So we may seem like we have more household income per year, but in actuality, per capita income we're poor as dirt compared to you.

My GOD! Finally someone uses a 'per capita' argument... I'm stunned that the most basic logic can infiltrate CFL... and be so ignored by so many others...

 

@Jim: the lead argument is that the import restriction is because it is illegal... that's the basis of the restriction (not that it's harmful; if's only harmful if ingested to certain levels).

While a per-capita argument can help illustrate the differences between China and other countries, specifically the US, it fails to illustrate cultural differences.

 

Lead paint is still widely used in China. Both because it's cheap, but also one of the most effective corrosion prevention agents known. Lead was also a widely used additive to American gas in the pre-nineteen seventies. It helped keep engines running smoother and served as an anti-knock agent. Lead was later regulated out of use for both gas and paint, and cars had to be manufactured with catalytic converters to accommodate. This of course impacted both the gas makers and car manufacturers, but the costs were of course rightly passed on to the consumer.

 

What begins to happen in much of American media, is that what was done in America, should also be done in China. As Lance so eloquently pointed out, that while the economic numbers look good out of China, the country is not well prepared to absorb costly and sweeping changes in the way it lives, and manufactures. Therefore, it is incumbent upon those that consume Chinese goods either at the consumer or manufacturer level, to help ensure that it meets your personal requirement. Far too many people fall into the trap of believing that a government and science will protect them. We as Americans can accomplish a lot more by working WITH China, rather than trying to FORCE them to adapt and change to what our government or a few lobby groups want.

 

--edit--

 

I'm not suggesting either that this be accomplished by the sweeping recall mania that Mattel and other manufacturers are being forced to do by lobbyists. It's the job of the importer to ensure the products they import meet US requirement before it arrives and is shipped.

Edited October 26, 2007 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[DMikeS4321]

It may be true but this really sounds bogus.

 

>>>Of the tens of thousands of random samples analyzed, not one, I'll repeat NOT ONE sample met the minimal standards as set by the US FDA (which was the bench mark for food analysis). Pretty scary stuff.

 

It might be more believable if we knew which minimal FDA standards are being referred to; or if there was a comparison with "tens of thousands of random samples" from American restaurants. As stated it sounds as if the FDA standards being applied are specious.

 

...as for pollution...

 

China is an emerging nation; emerging takes time.

 

In 20 - 40 years China will not only have a handle on the pollution problem, but her people will be making more money and China's economic, technological and military standing will likely surpass the US.

 

Maybe our standards are too damned strict!! I can't tell you which one's, but I know there are substances EPA tests for that are detectable in such minute quantities that they KNOW they aren't harmful, but out laws are such that ANY detectable level is illegal.

 

As technology 'improves' we will be able to detect levels of some substances way below any meaningful level, but still we will be saddled with some of these restrictions.