Three Gorges Dam...

[sleepless in Houston&CQ]

Damn Roggie you still talking bout this damn dam?

guess it beats talking bout them damn Goats..... huh?

but really that Goat thingie was so, so so, almost important

[DMikeS4321]

Damn Roggie you still talking bout this damn dam?

guess it beats talking bout them damn Goats..... huh?

but really that Goat thingie was so, so so, almost important

 

He's doing his best to stir up a political debate, or a debate that turns political, or a discussion that turns into a debate that turns political, or a........ whatever........ who KNOWS what Roger is doing?

[rogerluli]

Damn Roggie you still talking bout this damn dam?

guess it beats talking bout them damn Goats..... huh?

but really that Goat thingie was so, so so, almost important

 

He's doing his best to stir up a political debate, or a debate that turns political, or a discussion that turns into a debate that turns political, or a........ whatever........ who KNOWS what Roger is doing?

 

Quite so Mike... I, in truth, have no fricking idea...

[DMikeS4321]

Damn Roggie you still talking bout this damn dam?

guess it beats talking bout them damn Goats..... huh?

but really that Goat thingie was so, so so, almost important

 

He's doing his best to stir up a political debate, or a debate that turns political, or a discussion that turns into a debate that turns political, or a........ whatever........ who KNOWS what Roger is doing?

 

Quite so Mike... I, in truth, have no fricking idea...

 

At least you admit it, Roger. I have so much trouble with that...

[rogerluli]

Damn Roggie you still talking bout this damn dam?

guess it beats talking bout them damn Goats..... huh?

but really that Goat thingie was so, so so, almost important

 

He's doing his best to stir up a political debate, or a debate that turns political, or a discussion that turns into a debate that turns political, or a........ whatever........ who KNOWS what Roger is doing?

 

Quite so Mike... I, in truth, have no fricking idea...

 

At least you admit it, Roger. I have so much trouble with that...

 

Well maybe that's the difference between an L-word and a C-word...

[LeeFisher3]

Damn Roggie you still talking bout this damn dam?

guess it beats talking bout them damn Goats..... huh?

but really that Goat thingie was so, so so, almost important

 

He's doing his best to stir up a political debate, or a debate that turns political, or a discussion that turns into a debate that turns political, or a........ whatever........ who KNOWS what Roger is doing?

Amazingly just about any topic can be turned into political debate if you choose to make it so, so don't. It's an act of free will, you don't need to make everything about politics.

 

Roger is posting about environmental issues that have some affect on everyone at this site, whether directly or indirectly. Most at CFL have some interest in the state of affairs in China as we have family there and may possibly live there in the future during our retirement.

[IllinoisDave]

Damn Roggie you still talking bout this damn dam?

guess it beats talking bout them damn Goats..... huh?

but really that Goat thingie was so, so so, almost important

 

He's doing his best to stir up a political debate, or a debate that turns political, or a discussion that turns into a debate that turns political, or a........ whatever........ who KNOWS what Roger is doing?

Amazingly just about any topic can be turned into political debate if you choose to make it so, so don't. It's an act of free will, you don't need to make everything about politics.

 

Roger is posting about environmental issues that have some affect on everyone at this site, whether directly or indirectly. Most at CFL have some interest in the state of affairs in China as we have family there and may possibly live there in the future during our retirement.

 

Well said Lee.

[rogerluli]

Another mammoth dam project, this time in Yunnan province, is moving ahead. If these projects are done properly, with regard for the people and the environment it seems they are inevitable. China desperately needs the power and it is a clean and relatively safe alternative...

 

 

 

Work moves ahead at China¡¯s Xiluodu scheme

09 November 2007

 

Construction work has taken another step forward for the 12.6GW Xiluodu hydropower scheme on the Jianshajiang river, in China, after the previous set back due to the country¡¯s environmental agency acting on a number of schemes.

 

Official media in China report that work on damming the Jianshajiang has commenced. Work on the project had started in late 2005 but it suffered delays due to pressure from the State Environmental Protection Administration (Sepa).

 

Xiluodu is located in Yunnan province, on a tributary of the Yangtze, and is to supply power locally as well as to Sichuan.

 

 

The hydropower plant would be one of the world¡¯s largest but have just over half the eventual 22.4GW installed capacity of Three Gorges on the Yangtze river. Like Three Gorges, the Xiluodu scheme is being built by the China Three Gorges project Corp.

 

With the project schedule to have the first turbine installed by mid-2012, Xiluodu is to be fully commissioned by 2015. There was no information on any programme impacts due to the previous delays.

 

In additional to power generation, like Three Gorges the project will also have a significant function in flood management and water resource management.

[DMikeS4321]

Damn Roggie you still talking bout this damn dam?

guess it beats talking bout them damn Goats..... huh?

but really that Goat thingie was so, so so, almost important

 

He's doing his best to stir up a political debate, or a debate that turns political, or a discussion that turns into a debate that turns political, or a........ whatever........ who KNOWS what Roger is doing?

Amazingly just about any topic can be turned into political debate if you choose to make it so, so don't. It's an act of free will, you don't need to make everything about politics.

 

Roger is posting about environmental issues that have some affect on everyone at this site, whether directly or indirectly. Most at CFL have some interest in the state of affairs in China as we have family there and may possibly live there in the future during our retirement.

 

Lee, with all due respect, what's happening in China is going to happen, with or without our input. Posting a series of one-sided articles reeks of a political agenda, whether or not anyone chooses to acknowledge it. I did NOTHING to push this into a political argument, I simply stated that I thought that's what Roger was doing with his barrage of 'the dam is evil' links. Would it be political if I posted links extolling the virtues of the dam while not mentioning the downside?

 

I think it's bogus to put a negative (and political, in my opinion) spin on every development of this type. I'm not being poltical when I note that lessening the reliance on coal for power generation should be part of the conversation here. Between mining and burning, the long term effects of coal fired plants probably have at least as much negative impact as Three Gorges.

 

As for people in China, I've asked my wife and friends about this. I think they are somewhat expert on the topic of China, having lived there all their lives. They are aware of the project and are universally quite proud of their country's efforts in this regard.

 

When I asked my wife about the environmental impacts, she simply said (I'm paraphrasing) it's a trade off. Pretty astute in my book. As I posted earlier, she was born and grew up in a small house (to the age of 17, with 3 brothers and 3 sisters) with no electricity and no plumbing. There is no question in her mind that China is better off following the road to modernization and progress. American environmental sensibilities make no sense to her and frankly, they shouldn't. THAT is the key to this issue in my book. Promotion of an agenda here through posting links from only one perspective are missing this part of the story. Yes, I do think Roger was pushing a political agenda. No, nothing I posted was such, not in this thread and not in this sub-forum. That all belongs on TC, if anywhere.

 

Posting several links about impending environmental catastrophe bear little relationship to what the vast majority of people in China are living with every day. Pretending that WE know or should have any say on what is happening in a country that, even with our travels and Chinese contacts, is so completely foreign to us, is arrogance in the extreme. Reading the articles, particularly the articles in Chinese newspapers, are interesting and can be quite informative, but the implication behind some of these selective postings is that WE need to head off some kind of enviro disaster. This is NOT our business and it smacks of an internationalist "Ugly American" attitude that I am frankly surprised to see endorsed on this forum.

 

Good information, but biased due to being a one-sided monolog. Yes, that is an effort to stir up a political discussion, but I refuse to rise to the bait.

 

Best Regards

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Damn Roggie you still talking bout this damn dam?

guess it beats talking bout them damn Goats..... huh?

but really that Goat thingie was so, so so, almost important

 

He's doing his best to stir up a political debate, or a debate that turns political, or a discussion that turns into a debate that turns political, or a........ whatever........ who KNOWS what Roger is doing?

Amazingly just about any topic can be turned into political debate if you choose to make it so, so don't. It's an act of free will, you don't need to make everything about politics.

 

Roger is posting about environmental issues that have some affect on everyone at this site, whether directly or indirectly. Most at CFL have some interest in the state of affairs in China as we have family there and may possibly live there in the future during our retirement.

 

Lee, with all due respect, what's happening in China is going to happen, with or without our input. Posting a series of one-sided articles reeks of a political agenda, whether or not anyone chooses to acknowledge it. I did NOTHING to push this into a political argument, I simply stated that I thought that's what Roger was doing with his barrage of 'the dam is evil' links. Would it be political if I posted links extolling the virtues of the dam while not mentioning the downside?

 

I think it's bogus to put a negative (and political, in my opinion) spin on every development of this type. I'm not being poltical when I note that lessening the reliance on coal for power generation should be part of the conversation here. Between mining and burning, the long term effects of coal fired plants probably have at least as much negative impact as Three Gorges.

 

As for people in China, I've asked my wife and friends about this. I think they are somewhat expert on the topic of China, having lived there all their lives. They are aware of the project and are universally quite proud of their country's efforts in this regard.

 

When I asked my wife about the environmental impacts, she simply said (I'm paraphrasing) it's a trade off. Pretty astute in my book. As I posted earlier, she was born and grew up in a small house (to the age of 17, with 3 brothers and 3 sisters) with no electricity and no plumbing. There is no question in her mind that China is better off following the road to modernization and progress. American environmental sensibilities make no sense to her and frankly, they shouldn't. THAT is the key to this issue in my book. Promotion of an agenda here through posting links from only one perspective are missing this part of the story. Yes, I do think Roger was pushing a political agenda. No, nothing I posted was such, not in this thread and not in this sub-forum. That all belongs on TC, if anywhere.

 

Posting several links about impending environmental catastrophe bear little relationship to what the vast majority of people in China are living with every day. Pretending that WE know or should have any say on what is happening in a country that, even with our travels and Chinese contacts, is so completely foreign to us, is arrogance in the extreme. Reading the articles, particularly the articles in Chinese newspapers, are interesting and can be quite informative, but the implication behind some of these selective postings is that WE need to head off some kind of enviro disaster. This is NOT our business and it smacks of an internationalist "Ugly American" attitude that I am frankly surprised to see endorsed on this forum.

 

Good information, but biased due to being a one-sided monolog. Yes, that is an effort to stir up a political discussion, but I refuse to rise to the bait.

 

Best Regards

 

Very well said.

[IllinoisDave]

Damn Roggie you still talking bout this damn dam?

guess it beats talking bout them damn Goats..... huh?

but really that Goat thingie was so, so so, almost important

 

He's doing his best to stir up a political debate, or a debate that turns political, or a discussion that turns into a debate that turns political, or a........ whatever........ who KNOWS what Roger is doing?

Amazingly just about any topic can be turned into political debate if you choose to make it so, so don't. It's an act of free will, you don't need to make everything about politics.

 

Roger is posting about environmental issues that have some affect on everyone at this site, whether directly or indirectly. Most at CFL have some interest in the state of affairs in China as we have family there and may possibly live there in the future during our retirement.

 

Lee, with all due respect, what's happening in China is going to happen, with or without our input. Posting a series of one-sided articles reeks of a political agenda, whether or not anyone chooses to acknowledge it. I did NOTHING to push this into a political argument, I simply stated that I thought that's what Roger was doing with his barrage of 'the dam is evil' links. Would it be political if I posted links extolling the virtues of the dam while not mentioning the downside?

 

I think it's bogus to put a negative (and political, in my opinion) spin on every development of this type. I'm not being poltical when I note that lessening the reliance on coal for power generation should be part of the conversation here. Between mining and burning, the long term effects of coal fired plants probably have at least as much negative impact as Three Gorges.

 

As for people in China, I've asked my wife and friends about this. I think they are somewhat expert on the topic of China, having lived there all their lives. They are aware of the project and are universally quite proud of their country's efforts in this regard.

 

When I asked my wife about the environmental impacts, she simply said (I'm paraphrasing) it's a trade off. Pretty astute in my book. As I posted earlier, she was born and grew up in a small house (to the age of 17, with 3 brothers and 3 sisters) with no electricity and no plumbing. There is no question in her mind that China is better off following the road to modernization and progress. American environmental sensibilities make no sense to her and frankly, they shouldn't. THAT is the key to this issue in my book. Promotion of an agenda here through posting links from only one perspective are missing this part of the story. Yes, I do think Roger was pushing a political agenda. No, nothing I posted was such, not in this thread and not in this sub-forum. That all belongs on TC, if anywhere.

 

Posting several links about impending environmental catastrophe bear little relationship to what the vast majority of people in China are living with every day. Pretending that WE know or should have any say on what is happening in a country that, even with our travels and Chinese contacts, is so completely foreign to us, is arrogance in the extreme. Reading the articles, particularly the articles in Chinese newspapers, are interesting and can be quite informative, but the implication behind some of these selective postings is that WE need to head off some kind of enviro disaster. This is NOT our business and it smacks of an internationalist "Ugly American" attitude that I am frankly surprised to see endorsed on this forum.

 

Good information, but biased due to being a one-sided monolog. Yes, that is an effort to stir up a political discussion, but I refuse to rise to the bait.

 

Best Regards

 

Politics can be injected into anything.

 

Posting the articles reeks of a political agenda? How? He can speak for himself but do you really think Roger expects to be able to have any sort of impact on the Chinese government? Do we get to vote for anything or anyone in China that would be able to affect any of these issues? So he likes to post articles on subjects in which he's interested. So what? Just because it sticks in someowne's craw that he's doing it doesn't make it political.

 

Just posting these articles isn't bashing China. At worst it's pointing out some areas where the Chinese gov't could improve things for it's citizens or showing where decisions that were made,in the case of the dam,have an adverse affect on thousands of people. Food for thought it seems to me, not a political agenda. He wants to live there one day for chrissakes! Why would he post articles pointing out some of these drawbacks purely for political purposes?

 

If someone else wants to post articles extolling the virtues of lessening the reliance on coal I don't think anyone would accuse them of having a political agenda.

 

The issues in the articles are of interest to him and he thinks maybe they might be to others as well. What's wrong with that? It's not like he's posting them in hopes of influencing the rest of us to vote Hu Jintao out of office or something.

 

With all due respect to anyone's wife,including mine, do we really think they were exposed to all the facts about ANY environmental issue in China when they were there, be it the Three Gorges Dam or coal fired power plants? Your wife said it's a trade-off. Fair enough. Astute? Absolutely. I can't argue with it and I haven't seen Roger argue with it either.

 

IMHO to say someone is "pushing" a political agenda by posting these articles here is a bit reactionary and over-sensitive. I think saying that these "selective" postings implies that WE should do something about the issues discussed is in itself a little arrogant. I didn't see anywhere in his postings where Roger advocated that WE interfere in China's business.

 

What's wrong with being concerned about these issues enough to post articles about them on a Sino/American related website? What's wrong with even hoping that China will do something to clean up these environmental problems? Shouldn't we want the same thing for China that we want for our own country as well? Wanting it for China and talking about is hardly akin to arrogantly telling them they should do it or telling them how.

 

You make us wanting a cleaner environment for China sound like us wanting them to change their governmental structure or something. A cleaner environment is something everyone should strive for everywhere. Telling China how to go about it would be arrogant. Wishing that they would and posting articles about it on a wesite certainly isn't.

 

If Rog's articles were bait as you maintain, you sure have a funny way of not rising to it.

[rogerluli]

Damn Roggie you still talking bout this damn dam?

guess it beats talking bout them damn Goats..... huh?

but really that Goat thingie was so, so so, almost important

 

He's doing his best to stir up a political debate, or a debate that turns political, or a discussion that turns into a debate that turns political, or a........ whatever........ who KNOWS what Roger is doing?

Amazingly just about any topic can be turned into political debate if you choose to make it so, so don't. It's an act of free will, you don't need to make everything about politics.

 

Roger is posting about environmental issues that have some affect on everyone at this site, whether directly or indirectly. Most at CFL have some interest in the state of affairs in China as we have family there and may possibly live there in the future during our retirement.

 

Lee, with all due respect, what's happening in China is going to happen, with or without our input. Posting a series of one-sided articles reeks of a political agenda, whether or not anyone chooses to acknowledge it. I did NOTHING to push this into a political argument, I simply stated that I thought that's what Roger was doing with his barrage of 'the dam is evil' links. Would it be political if I posted links extolling the virtues of the dam while not mentioning the downside?

 

I think it's bogus to put a negative (and political, in my opinion) spin on every development of this type. I'm not being poltical when I note that lessening the reliance on coal for power generation should be part of the conversation here. Between mining and burning, the long term effects of coal fired plants probably have at least as much negative impact as Three Gorges.

 

As for people in China, I've asked my wife and friends about this. I think they are somewhat expert on the topic of China, having lived there all their lives. They are aware of the project and are universally quite proud of their country's efforts in this regard.

 

When I asked my wife about the environmental impacts, she simply said (I'm paraphrasing) it's a trade off. Pretty astute in my book. As I posted earlier, she was born and grew up in a small house (to the age of 17, with 3 brothers and 3 sisters) with no electricity and no plumbing. There is no question in her mind that China is better off following the road to modernization and progress. American environmental sensibilities make no sense to her and frankly, they shouldn't. THAT is the key to this issue in my book. Promotion of an agenda here through posting links from only one perspective are missing this part of the story. Yes, I do think Roger was pushing a political agenda. No, nothing I posted was such, not in this thread and not in this sub-forum. That all belongs on TC, if anywhere.

 

Posting several links about impending environmental catastrophe bear little relationship to what the vast majority of people in China are living with every day. Pretending that WE know or should have any say on what is happening in a country that, even with our travels and Chinese contacts, is so completely foreign to us, is arrogance in the extreme. Reading the articles, particularly the articles in Chinese newspapers, are interesting and can be quite informative, but the implication behind some of these selective postings is that WE need to head off some kind of enviro disaster. This is NOT our business and it smacks of an internationalist "Ugly American" attitude that I am frankly surprised to see endorsed on this forum.

 

Good information, but biased due to being a one-sided monolog. Yes, that is an effort to stir up a political discussion, but I refuse to rise to the bait.

 

Best Regards

 

Politics can be injected into anything.

 

Posting the articles reeks of a political agenda? How? He can speak for himself but do you really think Roger expects to be able to have any sort of impact on the Chinese government? Do we get to vote for anything or anyone in China that would be able to affect any of these issues? So he likes to post articles on subjects in which he's interested. So what? Just because it sticks in someowne's craw that he's doing it doesn't make it political.

 

Just posting these articles isn't bashing China. At worst it's pointing out some areas where the Chinese gov't could improve things for it's citizens or showing where decisions that were made,in the case of the dam,have an adverse affect on thousands of people. Food for thought it seems to me, not a political agenda. He wants to live there one day for chrissakes! Why would he post articles pointing out some of these drawbacks purely for political purposes?

 

If someone else wants to post articles extolling the virtues of lessening the reliance on coal I don't think anyone would accuse them of having a political agenda.

 

The issues in the articles are of interest to him and he thinks maybe they might be to others as well. What's wrong with that? It's not like he's posting them in hopes of influencing the rest of us to vote Hu Jintao out of office or something.

 

With all due respect to anyone's wife,including mine, do we really think they were exposed to all the facts about ANY environmental issue in China when they were there, be it the Three Gorges Dam or coal fired power plants? Your wife said it's a trade-off. Fair enough. Astute? Absolutely. I can't argue with it and I haven't seen Roger argue with it either.

 

IMHO to say someone is "pushing" a political agenda by posting these articles here is a bit reactionary and over-sensitive. I think saying that these "selective" postings implies that WE should do something about the issues discussed is in itself a little arrogant. I didn't see anywhere in his postings where Roger advocated that WE interfere in China's business.

 

What's wrong with being concerned about these issues enough to post articles about them on a Sino/American related website? What's wrong with even hoping that China will do something to clean up these environmental problems? Shouldn't we want the same thing for China that we want for our own country as well? Wanting it for China and talking about is hardly akin to arrogantly telling them they should do it or telling them how.

 

You make us wanting a cleaner environment for China sound like us wanting them to change their governmental structure or something. A cleaner environment is something everyone should strive for everywhere. Telling China how to go about it would be arrogant. Wishing that they would and posting articles about it on a wesite certainly isn't.

 

If Rog's articles were bait as you maintain, you sure have a funny way of not rising to it.

 

What Dave said...

[DMikeS4321]

If Rog's articles were bait as you maintain, you sure have a funny way of not rising to it.

 

Well put, but I was responding specifically to Lee's veiled accusation that I was turning this political. I'm also coming off a 3 day suspension for simply posting a link (without editorial comment) that someone didn't like.

 

Later...

Edited November 13, 2007 by DMikeS4321 (see edit history)

[Randy W]

There were actually Four Gorges Dames . . .

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Beauties

[IllinoisDave]

There were actually Four Gorges Dames . . .

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Beauties

 

Now that's a project no one can find fault with.