Racism

[NewDay2006]

some people say what they do because they [think they] are your friend.. they thought they could openly say what they wanted.. isn't that just a form of 'free speech' from which we wish they didn't just have a right to do...

 

I alway remember St. Paul's words where he said, "Have I become your enemy by telling you the truth".. while I don't think for a minute the friend was speaking the truth, I see a much deeper truth to the saying.. I see it as saying, "have I become your enemy by speaking". Don't let words define your friendship.. let your action go as they will and let him go as he will; with you or away from you.

 

I see no point in confronting another about their actions, nor telling them how it made me feel (well, I would feel anything most likely anyway other than a little sorry for their narrow mindedness)...

 

Let kindness quiet them... eventually they will see the error in their judgement or they will not be able to stick around you enjoying your wonder life...

 

David, if I had a friend and I told him I was marrying "anyone", say a person of my own race... if they were to say, why are you marrying that woman, she looks like a witch or dog, is that person my friend? even it were true the woman wasn't the most pretty or even resembled a canine, that person(my friend) would need to respect me and my feelings for this woman.

 

Did that person consider how thier remarks would affect me when I mentioned that I decided to make this woman my wife? Probably not, definetly not!!

 

I would think, it is time to put the distance between me and that person. And like charles said, "walk away and no whack"

Edited October 3, 2007 by NewDay2006 (see edit history)

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

 

I see no point in confronting another about their actions, nor telling them how it made me feel (well, I would feel anything most likely anyway other than a little sorry for their narrow mindedness)...

 

Let kindness quiet them... eventually they will see the error in their judgement or they will not be able to stick around you enjoying your wonder life...

 

DavidZ, I agree with you probably 99% of the time, but on this I have to disagree.

 

I understand what you're saying above. It's actually quite philosophical and many times I apply what you say above, but the other side of me believes that action is necessary sometimes. If Caucasian Americans didn't join the African Americans and other minorities during the Civil Rights movement, I don't believe the US would be what it is today.

 

If the words are coming from an acquaintance, or a friend, it's important to speak up; especially if you intend to share the experience with another. Doing anything less than that would be two-faced. It's important to keep in mind that you're probably NOT going to change an opinion, but simply take a moment to express your disagreement.

 

Would you go to another to tell them that you were offended by another's words when you didn't take the time to express it to that person's face? I believe that behavior is more destructive than the original ignorant expression. Talk to people, let them know your thoughts. There is a LARGE difference between what I would call racism and simple ignorance. In my opinion, racism is easy to recognize because it doesn't wear a mask. It's hatred, either in the open, or behind closed doors.

 

Discussing issues with someone that hates will likely prove fruitless. On the other hand, sharing your thoughts with someone whose living or cultural environment fosters dislike for another race, you may be able to plant a seed to open ignorant eyes to being more receptive.

Edited October 3, 2007 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[griz326]

I am not concerned by off-handed comments; I will teach my gal and her child that mean words only reflect the ignorance of the speaker.

 

I am concerned about physical harm coming to my fiancee and her daughter. This is so worrisome to me that I may move to a big city so that my two young women are not such stand-out targets.

[IllinoisDave]

some people say what they do because they [think they] are your friend.. they thought they could openly say what they wanted.. isn't that just a form of 'free speech' from which we wish they didn't just have a right to do...

 

I alway remember St. Paul's words where he said, "Have I become your enemy by telling you the truth".. while I don't think for a minute the friend was speaking the truth, I see a much deeper truth to the saying.. I see it as saying, "have I become your enemy by speaking". Don't let words define your friendship.. let your action go as they will and let him go as he will; with you or away from you.

 

I see no point in confronting another about their actions, nor telling them how it made me feel (well, I would feel anything most likely anyway other than a little sorry for their narrow mindedness)...

 

Let kindness quiet them... eventually they will see the error in their judgement or they will not be able to stick around you enjoying your wonder life...

 

I'm curious... if one excludes any reading material... and since you've been in a prison environment for 18 years... on what basis do you claim the US as the greatest country? How many other countries social, political, and economic situations have you visited and thoroughly studied in person?

 

Just saw the "choosen ones" comment.. now that is funny...

 

This post has been edited by DavidZixuan: Sep 12 2007, 04:23 PM

 

It seems you are somewhat hypocritical David.

 

Huh?

[rogerinca]

A song I like expresses this thread well. Anyone remember "You have to be taught" from South Pacific?

 

You can listen to it on my webpage http://www.urban4est.com/growing_up.htm

 

"You've Got to Be Carefully Taught" is a popular song from the musical South Pacific written by Richard Rodgers (music), and Oscar Hammerstein II (lyrics). The song was published in 1949.

 

South Pacific received scrutiny for its commentary regarding relationships between different races and ethnic groups. In particular, "You¡¯ve Got to Be Carefully Taught" was subject to widespread criticism, judged by some to be too controversial or downright inappropriate for the musical stage.[1] Sung by the character Lieutenant Cable, the song is preceded by a lyric saying racism is "not born in you! It happens after you¡¯re born..." The song begins:

 

You¡¯ve got to be taught to hate and fear,

You¡¯ve got to be taught from year to year,

It¡¯s got to be drummed in your dear little ear¡ª

You¡¯ve got to be carefully taught

 

You've got to be taught to be afraid

Of people whose eyes are oddly made,

And people whose skin is a different shade¡ª

You've got to be carefully taught.

 

You¡¯ve got to be taught before it¡¯s too late¡ª

Before you are six or seven or eight,

To hate all the people your relatives hate¡ª

You¡¯ve got to be carefully taught!

You¡¯ve got to be carefully taught!

 

Rodgers and Hammerstein risked the entire South Pacific venture in light of legislative challenges to its decency or supposed Communist agenda. While on a tour of the Southern United States, lawmakers in Georgia introduced a bill outlawing entertainment containing "an underlying philosophy inspired by Moscow." Interracial marriage was illegal in many states at the time and regarded as a threat by many to "The American Way of Life".

 

 

Yes, I remember this song, having read Post#8, within this thread....... B)

[Joshua + Wang Zhuo]

I think it all depends on where the racism originates. Dealing with racism from within the family, from friends and from strangers is different and it has to be dealt with in different ways. I could get confrontational with my family, but that would not get me very far. As much as the racist attitude disturbs me, I love my family and I am not willing to walk away from them and I think confrontation would create a schism from within the family.

 

Joshua

 

I will give you that how you deal with it might be different, yes, but still it must be dealt with period if you want a successful marriage. You both need to discuss and agree on how it is handled. It can only be ignored, if and only if she agrees this is the best way. You are either with her or against her. If you are percieved as against her, this could have disasterous consequences for your partnership.

Speaking in General terms, I find it funny how many people get married, speak the vows but do not understand their full meaning. The part about forsaking all others is not just talking about sex. It refers to emotional as well. If you are not willing to walk away from your family for the sake of your wife, maybe you married the wrong person. No matter how much I love my sister, how close we are, I would not hesitate to walk away for my wife's sake. Luckily, my sister is the most supportive person.

I agree with what Lance said, 100%. Especially the part about:

I can almost guarantee that your relationship/marriage will suffer in the long run--and probably the short run--if you don't champion her honor and dignity in such situations.

 

Well, of course I would deal with it I mentioned in an earlier post that we have discussed this already. Our decision is to not be confrontational, especially at first, but instead to try to defeat the hatred and ignorance with kindness and compassion. I have no doubt that there will be words that will be said that are inappropriate, but if we become confrontational every time something happens or is said it would rip my family apart from the inside. I agree as well that if the situation continued I would have to choose and of course I would choose my wife. I have discussed this thoroughly with my fiancee in the past. She is prepared and she agrees.

 

If, on the other hand, I was dealing with racism from an outside source, I would not tolerate it even a little.

 

Joshua

[Guest Rob & Jin]

I think it all depends on where the racism originates. Dealing with racism from within the family, from friends and from strangers is different and it has to be dealt with in different ways. I could get confrontational with my family, but that would not get me very far. As much as the racist attitude disturbs me, I love my family and I am not willing to walk away from them and I think confrontation would create a schism from within the family.

 

Joshua

 

I will give you that how you deal with it might be different, yes, but still it must be dealt with period if you want a successful marriage. You both need to discuss and agree on how it is handled. It can only be ignored, if and only if she agrees this is the best way. You are either with her or against her. If you are percieved as against her, this could have disasterous consequences for your partnership.

Speaking in General terms, I find it funny how many people get married, speak the vows but do not understand their full meaning. The part about forsaking all others is not just talking about sex. It refers to emotional as well. If you are not willing to walk away from your family for the sake of your wife, maybe you married the wrong person. No matter how much I love my sister, how close we are, I would not hesitate to walk away for my wife's sake. Luckily, my sister is the most supportive person.

I agree with what Lance said, 100%. Especially the part about:

I can almost guarantee that your relationship/marriage will suffer in the long run--and probably the short run--if you don't champion her honor and dignity in such situations.

 

Well, of course I would deal with it I mentioned in an earlier post that we have discussed this already. Our decision is to not be confrontational, especially at first, but instead to try to defeat the hatred and ignorance with kindness and compassion. I have no doubt that there will be words that will be said that are inappropriate, but if we become confrontational every time something happens or is said it would rip my family apart from the inside. I agree as well that if the situation continued I would have to choose and of course I would choose my wife. I have discussed this thoroughly with my fiancee in the past. She is prepared and she agrees.

 

If, on the other hand, I was dealing with racism from an outside source, I would not tolerate it even a little.

 

Joshua

 

Well my reply to this friend was delayed, because i could not believe what he said it, i guess i was too shocked. I spoke to other friends asking them why he would say that after i had i told him Jin was my love and we are going to marry.

I agree with what David says in part about forgiveness and others about no tolerance, but i have thought long and hard about about this, as he was a very close friend, but what he said was very hurtfull, he insulted Jin, and I cannot accept that, she is my love/ wife, as her husband I feel i have duty to protect her and defend her above all others.

This friend insulted us and I dont feel that is acceptable, so I told him he must apologize to us and we will be friends , he said no, he thinks chinese woman are low, no good, dishonest with no morals.

So I have told him , He is wrong have a good life, bye, bye. We dont need ignorance and malice as a friend.

Edited October 3, 2007 by Rob & Jin (see edit history)

[IllinoisDave]

This friend insulted us and I dont feel that is acceptable, so I told him he must apologize to us and will can be friends , he said no, he thinks chinese woman are low, no good, dishonest with no morals.

So I have told him , He is wrong have a good life, bye, bye. We dont need ignorance and malice as a friend.

 

He was your friend so I mean no disrespect to you, but I say, based on his statement, GOOD EFFING RIDDANCE!

[rogerinca]

 

Well my reply to this friend was delayed, because i could not believe what he said it, i guess i was too shocked. I spoke to other friends asking them why he would say that after i had i told him Jin was my love and we are going to marry.

I agree with what David says in part about forgiveness and others about no tolerance, but i have thought long and hard about about this, as he was a very close friend, but what he said was very hurtfull, he insulted Jin, and I cannot accept that, she is my love/ wife, as her husband I feel i have duty to protect her and defend her above all others.

This friend insulted us and I dont feel that is acceptable, so I told him he must apologize to us and will can be friends , he said no, he thinks chinese woman are low, no good, dishonest with no morals.

So I have told him , He is wrong have a good life, bye, bye. We dont need ignorance and malice as a friend.

 

Were you ever able to understand on what he based his biased and hateful feelings !!??

 

Has he ever had a personal relationship with a woman from China ?? Has he ever visited China ?? Has he ever interacted with multiple Chinese people and/or families ??

 

Yes, as Dave says¡­.¡±Good F¡­¡­ riddance¡± !!

[Joshua + Wang Zhuo]

 

Well my reply to this friend was delayed, because i could not believe what he said it, i guess i was too shocked. I spoke to other friends asking them why he would say that after i had i told him Jin was my love and we are going to marry.

I agree with what David says in part about forgiveness and others about no tolerance, but i have thought long and hard about about this, as he was a very close friend, but what he said was very hurtfull, he insulted Jin, and I cannot accept that, she is my love/ wife, as her husband I feel i have duty to protect her and defend her above all others.

This friend insulted us and I dont feel that is acceptable, so I told him he must apologize to us and will can be friends , he said no, he thinks chinese woman are low, no good, dishonest with no morals.

So I have told him , He is wrong have a good life, bye, bye. We dont need ignorance and malice as a friend.

 

Were you ever able to understand on what he based his biased and hateful feelings !!??

 

Has he ever had a personal relationship with a woman from China ?? Has he ever visited China ?? Has he ever interacted with multiple Chinese people and/or families ??

 

Yes, as Dave says¡­.¡±Good F¡­¡­ riddance¡± !!

 

Well....... It seems to me he based his opinion on ignorance. Anytime you judge an individual because of the ethnic group they belong to it is ignorant. Even if 99% of Chinese women were low, no good, dishonest and lacked morals (Which we know is not the case ) how is he to know that you did not find one of the 1% that is perfect. Judging people before you get to know them is silly.

 

I think Rob did the right thing by giving him the chance to apologize. Maybe his friend did not realize that he was hurtful, or maybe he spoke without thinking ( goodness knows I have done that before), but when his friend would not apologize for what he said, it just showed that he was not a friend worth having.

 

Joshua

[Minister]

Another danger is in thinking, just because we are taught to believe that "stereotypes are wrong" - that there re no differences between Chinese and American people. My wife and I both believed this, and as a result we ignored or largley laughed at posts by people like David. Trust me... there ARE things you need to both understand about each other's cultures, upbringing, deep-set morals and prejudices. Since we both refused to admit this... we really allowed many things to come between us, and went from the extreme of "there are no differences" to the extreme of "the differences are insurmountable".

 

These are wise words and I won't forget them. I do realize that the cultural differences between us are present. I know they can not be ignored. I think they can be overcome with a mixture of mutual patience, mutual understanding, and, most importantly, mutual fascination.

 

You know, a friend of mine (a Chinese woman married to an American man) once said, "It's true, the cultural differences never go away. There always seems to be something to adjust too. But it's worth it." Another friend of mine (An American. His wife is Japanese) once said, "All of the differences between us can cause problems, but the richness that they add to your lives make it more than worth it." So far, I have found them both to be correct. It may be that I come off as too upbeat about it. But in any case, I will remember your advice and I thank you for it.

 

This is something that will definitely create resentment from your SO towards you. If she perceives that you don't care--as in it's no big deal if your friend makes fun of her ethnicity--you'll have problems. Chinese people realize they'll have to deal with racism--that's a given for all Chinese immigrants to the US--but they will not tolerate their own SOs quiet acceptance of or indifference to racism towards Chinese. I can almost guarantee that your relationship/marriage will suffer in the long run--and probably the short run--if you don't champion her honor and dignity in such situations.

 

Well, thank you for the advice. But are we really talking about direct confrontation with someone or just a friend's private jibe here? Of course I would take issue with someone spouting racist garbage to my fiancee. I would use my blisteringly cynical Detroit wit (or other appropriate means, short of violence, which is the Grand High Cardinal of All Things Lame) to show this guy what's up. But how often are you accosted by some clown in a white sheet calling your girl a "mud person"?

 

As for people saying this to me... Why would I ever tell her about it? What good would it ever do to tell her that someone insulted her if she didn't have to know?

 

In my opinion, the real problem is not the vocal assault, but the quiet judgment of your character. The first can tick you off for about 5 minutes and make you say, "Jeez. That guy's a real jackass". The second can lead to all kinds of long term troubles and resentments. It can cause people to lose respect for you and treat you differently, without ever telling you why.

 

So that's what I mean to address. In the very first post in this thread, I thought that the feeling underlying the racist comment was that the girl was "just lying and using him for a visa". I think this a lot more common than bold-faced racism.

 

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

[Guest Rob & Jin]

Another danger is in thinking, just because we are taught to believe that "stereotypes are wrong" - that there re no differences between Chinese and American people. My wife and I both believed this, and as a result we ignored or largley laughed at posts by people like David. Trust me... there ARE things you need to both understand about each other's cultures, upbringing, deep-set morals and prejudices. Since we both refused to admit this... we really allowed many things to come between us, and went from the extreme of "there are no differences" to the extreme of "the differences are insurmountable".

 

These are wise words and I won't forget them. I do realize that the cultural differences between us are present. I know they can not be ignored. I think they can be overcome with a mixture of mutual patience, mutual understanding, and, most importantly, mutual fascination.

 

You know, a friend of mine (a Chinese woman married to an American man) once said, "It's true, the cultural differences never go away. There always seems to be something to adjust too. But it's worth it." Another friend of mine (An American. His wife is Japanese) once said, "All of the differences between us can cause problems, but the richness that they add to your lives make it more than worth it." So far, I have found them both to be correct. It may be that I come off as too upbeat about it. But in any case, I will remember your advice and I thank you for it.

 

This is something that will definitely create resentment from your SO towards you. If she perceives that you don't care--as in it's no big deal if your friend makes fun of her ethnicity--you'll have problems. Chinese people realize they'll have to deal with racism--that's a given for all Chinese immigrants to the US--but they will not tolerate their own SOs quiet acceptance of or indifference to racism towards Chinese. I can almost guarantee that your relationship/marriage will suffer in the long run--and probably the short run--if you don't champion her honor and dignity in such situations.

 

Well, thank you for the advice. But are we really talking about direct confrontation with someone or just a friend's private jibe here? Of course I would take issue with someone spouting racist garbage to my fiancee. I would use my blisteringly cynical Detroit wit (or other appropriate means, short of violence, which is the Grand High Cardinal of All Things Lame) to show this guy what's up. But how often are you accosted by some clown in a white sheet calling your girl a "mud person"?

 

As for people saying this to me... Why would I ever tell her about it? What good would it ever do to tell her that someone insulted her if she didn't have to know?

 

In my opinion, the real problem is not the vocal assault, but the quiet judgment of your character. The first can tick you off for about 5 minutes and make you say, "Jeez. That guy's a real jackass". The second can lead to all kinds of long term troubles and resentments. It can cause people to lose respect for you and treat you differently, without ever telling you why.

 

So that's what I mean to address. In the very first post in this thread, I thought that the feeling underlying the racist comment was that the girl was "just lying and using him for a visa". I think this a lot more common than bold-faced racism.

 

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

sorry you got the wrong impession from the OP, I simply meant we could be together here.

[sweattrl1]

racism will never go away,believe me ,what you see is what you get.

just think , before you gite involved, with a chinese woman or man what ever the case is , what was your true feelings toward other races,don,t tell me just think this to your self , i truely believe in the freedom of speech, and i also believe you should never write a check with your mouth , that your ass can;t cash , so with this in mind my mouth and ass remains friends forever,so if someone's mouth write you a check , see if there ass can cash it or , walk away ;)good bye

[Guest Rob & Jin]

racism will never go away,believe me ,what you see is what you get.

just think , before you gite involved, with a chinese woman or man what ever the case is , what was your true feelings toward other races,don,t tell me just think this to your self , i truely believe in the freedom of speech, and i also believe you should never write a check with your mouth , that your ass can;t cash , so with this in mind my mouth and ass remains friends forever,so if someone's mouth write you a check , see if there ass can cash it or , walk away ;)good bye

 

very true, but my family and fiends are not my ass, they are not writing the check, dont expect them too. Jin is a great woman, her race should not be of concern to anyone. Freedom has responsibility and we fully understand that some people have a problem with mixed race marriages, thats their problem not mine. But if a friend insults us then its a problem and has to be addressed. I guess its baby steps in educating the world

[rogerinca]

Racism will never go away, believe me, what you see is what you get. Just think, before you get involved, with a chinese woman or man what ever the case is, what were your true feelings toward other races, don't tell me just think this to your self. I truely believe in the freedom of speech, and I also believe you should never write a check with your mouth, that your ass can't cash, so with this in mind my mouth and ass remain friends forever, so if someone's mouth writes you a check, see if their ass can cash it or, walk away good bye.

 

Hey, you are too funny; however, if I had a time-line like yours (NOA-1 Feb-3-2006--NOA-2 Feb-25-2006) only 22 days for NOA-1 to 2; then my ass would be more of a friend of mine and feeling a lot better than it is now !!!!

 

As my friend Jim (in Texas) would most likely say...."so bad!! "

Edited October 4, 2007 by rogerinca (see edit history)