Chinese Civility?

[Joanne]

 

 

And the same thing happened to him that happens to any US civil servant who abuses his power like that (provided the system works)... he was fired, charged, and (I think) had his ass sued.

 

I see no irony in the quote. Is that an American lawyer posing with her? Was justice done? She was a victim of a criminal act, and the perpetrator was punished under the law. She received medical treatment and compensation.

 

If this had happened to a Chinese woman in China no one would have given a shit, and no one would have had to pay the price. My wife watched a cop beat the hell out of an old lady on the street for trying to sell drinks out of a cooler. No one batted an eye. This happens dozens of times a day.

 

I get what you are trying to say here, Lance... but the sensationalism of the post and the slant you are putting on it (not talking about criminal acts, we are talking about people helping those in trouble) deserves to be called out a bit.

 

Jeukin, if the ILS used an example of a Chinese person being stricken over by a car and left to die, I wouldn't have said much as I agree with your position and ILS regarding the Chinese apathy towards another Chinese in distress.

 

But ILS used an example of an American being hit and left to die on the road. That is so unheard of. It's completely isolated and anecdotal. It goes contrary to everything I've witnessed in China while living there--especially since this supposedly took place in Shanghai, where there are tons of Americans living and working there.

 

The sad and pathetic truth is that a Chinese person in China is much more apt to help a laowei in distress than a fellow Chinese citizen in distress. And this is completely taken for granted by laoweis because most laoweis don't even realize they've been accorded special treatment. The special treatment they receive is still viewed by many laoweis as uncivilized and rude.

 

That's pure irony.

 

As for sensationalism, I'd say the way the story is told in the original post is pretty sensational. I'd actually like to read an actual journalistic account of this story. Any links would be appreciated, whether in Chinese or English.

 

Fortunately we still see laowais like Lee of Toplaw, who distribute candy on a bus. He is not spoiled yet (probably will never be).

 

I have seen many spoiled laowais in Shanghai. Some of them are extremely rude towards Chinese people, even according to Chinese standard.

[I love Sunshine]

When I started this thread, it was to make people think. Also to share my own thinking after having lived there for some time. Others who have lived there have also been able to understand this, but those who visit for a short period of time rarely do.

 

There is a stark difference between many of us as a foreigner, who go over there for a short work-trip or to visit our SO and experience a China where soon-to-be family members and their friends are exceedingly generous, things are sorted out for us without much need for worry or concern, and everything seems new and novel. But folks, there is another China out there, with people who refuse to stand in line, push their way onto elevators before giving people a chance to leave, people bump and jostle others without an idea of how others are affected, etc. that your SO must deal with everyday. I agree with others that said that laowai are treated better than the ordinary Chinese.

 

Yes, there are different opinions of civility, and yes, I agree some of my anecdotes can be viewed as generalizations -- I expected this to be said by someone, since it is an easy way to explain it. But when you see the daily occurrence of nearly every person at a bus stop slamming poor granny against the side of the bus to get that one free seat, it does make you ask "why?" And it does make you draw comparisons to what happens elsewhere. It's just human nature to see things this way.

 

If you spend some time in China, you will see there is a pervasive "if it doesn't concern me, why should I get involved?" attitude. Perhaps you won't see it when visiting your SO for a week or two smothered in romantic bliss, but stay a bit longer and it becomes more apparent. Just about everyone I have spoken to who has lived there, Chinese or otherwise, sees this collapse of civility as well.

 

Ask your SO about it, and see what s/he thinks. Be prepared to get an earful of interesting stories.

[Jeikun]

 

 

And the same thing happened to him that happens to any US civil servant who abuses his power like that (provided the system works)... he was fired, charged, and (I think) had his ass sued.

 

I see no irony in the quote. Is that an American lawyer posing with her? Was justice done? She was a victim of a criminal act, and the perpetrator was punished under the law. She received medical treatment and compensation.

 

If this had happened to a Chinese woman in China no one would have given a shit, and no one would have had to pay the price. My wife watched a cop beat the hell out of an old lady on the street for trying to sell drinks out of a cooler. No one batted an eye. This happens dozens of times a day.

 

I get what you are trying to say here, Lance... but the sensationalism of the post and the slant you are putting on it (not talking about criminal acts, we are talking about people helping those in trouble) deserves to be called out a bit.

 

Jeukin, if ILS used an example of a Chinese person being stricken over by a car and left to die, I wouldn't have said much as I agree with your position and ILS regarding the Chinese apathy towards another Chinese in distress.

 

But ILS used an example of an American being hit and left to die on the road. That is so unheard of. It's completely isolated and anecdotal. It goes contrary to everything I've witnessed in China while living there--especially since this supposedly took place in Shanghai, where there are tons of Americans living and working there.

 

The sad and pathetic truth is that a Chinese person in China is much more apt to help a laowei in distress than a fellow Chinese citizen in distress. And this is completely taken for granted by laoweis because most laoweis don't even realize they've been accorded special treatment. The special treatment they receive is still viewed by many laoweis as uncivilized and rude.

 

That's pure irony.

 

As for sensationalism, I'd say the way the story is told in the original post is pretty sensational. I'd actually like to read an actual journalistic account of this story. Any links would be appreciated, whether in Chinese or English.

 

 

I will agree with you that that kind of thing happening to a foreigner is shocking. I always saw what you and others have said here... Chinese treating each other terribly but putting on a different face for the foreigners.

 

But dispite using an American in his example, I think his basic point was the attitude about helping others in distress vs looking the other way or even discouraging help. That point I believe is valid. If his post hadn;t mentioned that the vistim was an American I wouldn't have even batted an eyelash at it.

[Joanne]

How could the CFL wives are all sweetheart while their moms, dads, brothers and sisters are so uncivilized and rude?

[carl.hops]

With out trying to be political here, I would say in general yes people are very civil to each other in America depending on the area you live in. But corporations are not, (American health care is one example).

[Jeikun]

How could the CFL wives are all sweetheart while their moms, dads, brothers and sisters are so uncivilized and rude?

 

 

I think, Joanne, it is more of a case that "a person" may be one way, but "people" can be another way entirely. It's not really pointing the finger at anyone as an individual, but the social norms that make that kind of thing commonplace.

 

If everyday when I tried to get on the bus, 200 people were pushing me... then soon I would be pushing also. You can't really blame any one person for it, but change has to start somewhere.

[A Mafan]

I think China's Bystander Apathy is worse than the US due to the Douglas Adams' Invisibility Field. It works on the basis of SEP (Someone Else's Problem) that causes people to not see things they'd rather not deal with.

 

Since there are so many more people in China, and since they are all crammed into the coastal regions, it creates a much more dense population distribution, and that means there are just that many more people contributing to the SEP Invisibility Field.

[SirLancelot]

When I started this thread, it was to make people think. Also to share my own thinking after having lived there for some time. Others who have lived there have also been able to understand this, but those who visit for a short period of time rarely do.

 

There is a stark difference between many of us as a foreigner, who go over there for a short work-trip or to visit our SO and experience a China where soon-to-be family members and their friends are exceedingly generous, things are sorted out for us without much need for worry or concern, and everything seems new and novel. But folks, there is another China out there, with people who refuse to stand in line, push their way onto elevators before giving people a chance to leave, people bump and jostle others without an idea of how others are affected, etc. that your SO must deal with everyday. I agree with others that said that laowai are treated better than the ordinary Chinese.

 

Yes, there are different opinions of civility, and yes, I agree some of my anecdotes can be viewed as generalizations -- I expected this to be said by someone, since it is an easy way to explain it. But when you see the daily occurrence of nearly every person at a bus stop slamming poor granny against the side of the bus to get that one free seat, it does make you ask "why?" And it does make you draw comparisons to what happens elsewhere. It's just human nature to see things this way.

 

If you spend some time in China, you will see there is a pervasive "if it doesn't concern me, why should I get involved?" attitude. Perhaps you won't see it when visiting your SO for a week or two smothered in romantic bliss, but stay a bit longer and it becomes more apparent. Just about everyone I have spoken to who has lived there, Chinese or otherwise, sees this collapse of civility as well.

 

Ask your SO about it, and see what s/he thinks. Be prepared to get an earful of interesting stories.

 

This is fair. I would have to agree that Chinese to Chinese relations (amongst strangers) on the Mainland is not something I would like other countries to model themselves after.

 

A lot has to do with the sheer number of people. As a Californian, I'm shocked at the behavior of New Yorkers (NYC). Absolutely appalling from what I've seen. But I don't directly blame them as I realize it's the number of people that's densely packed into NYC which attribute to their rude behavior. Likewise with China. Not all their behavior is justified by massively over population but a lot of it is.

 

In all honest, I was equally appalled and judgmental while living in China. It angered and frustrated me to no end seeing how the Chinese treated each other--again amongst stranger. I just felt very sad for the general population and the circumstances under which they've had to live. Still, this is our interpretation here. Most Chinese accept it as a matter of course and don't think much of it.

Edited September 25, 2007 by SirLancelot (see edit history)

[Tony_onrock]

Let me summarize:

(1) Chinese do help out more their family and friends to the extent most Americans will not do.

(2). Chinese (now in mainland) generally do not help strangers.

 

It is sad truth. But then it all depends on the people and education level as well. I had a few falls on the campus of universities while roller blading and generally the students will come and help. But on public street, no such luck.

When I help out other strangers, people generally ask me where I was from (implying returnee). I just smile and tell them He Bei.

I have seen too many people being extremely rude, including Chinese and American here in China. I guess it is a result of the overcrowded environment.

[SirLancelot]

How could the CFL wives are all sweetheart while their moms, dads, brothers and sisters are so uncivilized and rude?

 

B) This is also where I think many of the CFL members will be in for a rude awakening once their SOs arrive to the US. Once the romantic honeymoon period is over and day to day marriage life manifests itself in the US, the same CFL members will probably see some of the behavior they consider rude and uncivilized in their own SOs. It's very difficult to immediately change someone's cultural behavior after having lived in that said culture for many, many years. To assume or imagine that only other Chinese people are rude, and that one's own SO is an angel, is to ask for trouble IMO.

 

SheLikesME had written some very honest posts about his observations of his wife once she came to the US.

 

All people are products of their environment. It's reasonable to assume that any SO will, in general, by like the general Chinese population. I think it's unreasonable to assume or expect any SO to be much better than the general Chinese population.

[Joshua + Wang Zhuo]

I am not denying that there is more bystander apathy in China, or that people do not treat strangers with respect. It is something I witnessed first hand while I was there. People push their way to the front of the line, cut people off on the streets and generally look after themselves first. In fact, I witnessed some of the same characteristics manifesting themselves in my Anna.

 

I even started seeing changes in myself in the short period of time that I was there. In the states if a begger asks me for money I usually look him in the eye and shake my head, or even tell him no. Begging annoys me and I am very unlikely to give to people "asking" for money, but I still view them as people and acknowledge them even if it is to deny them. In China the amount of people asking for money and trying to sell me something I did not need was overwhelming. At first I would always answer "Bu yao, bu yao!" but before long I just ignored them completely.

 

In the states when I stand in line somewhere if someone cuts in front of me, I tend to just say excuse me and give them a look. 90% of the time it was an honest accident and they did not even realize they were doing it. In china if you had that behavior you may stand in line all day so I adjusted accordingly (and I know that the problem is even less for me than for native Chinese, because I am white) and pushed back if I was pushed.

 

In my opinion this can be explained by the population difference and the recent past of the Chinese where competition for survival has been much greater than in the US. I know that when I go there I am in a different culture and they do not necessarily do things like we do in America. It is not "Wrong" or "Bad", it just "IS".

 

If this "problem" of people treating others with apathy is going to be changed, I think the solution is education. I do not look at it is a problem though, I just look at is a cultural difference.

 

I cannot wait for my Anna to come to the states though and experience the differences there. It will certainly take her time to adjust, but I think that will be one of the most enjoyable parts of the near future.

 

Joshua

[jbray]

At the first school I taught at, in a small town in Sichuan, several teachers and students (at different times) talked about this issue. They all basically said that Chinese only do good deeds when someone else is watching, when it will benefit them... Those were their words not mine.

 

The "good samaritan" doesn't seem to be as much of a Chinese principle. Oddly, the golden rule of "Do un to other as you would have them do un to you" was also a strong message in confusianism, but doesn't seem to be widely practised... I would always, each semester teach one or two classes on doing good deeds. I would tell the students that you don't do them for you, you don't do them to make you feel good. You do them to make the other person feel good... Often, my students would go out in the town with me. When ever we would go out, I would make it a point to help someone in need... This one time, a woman was pushing a cart across the street. It was too top heavy and overturned. Her stuff was all over the street. A crowd gathered to watch her. Cars were honking. No one helping. I said to the boys I was with, "let's help her". They said, "but Mr. Bray!". This woman was panicking. people were yelling and laughing... 5 minutes later we have picked everying up and pushed her cart... It took 5 minutes, cost us NOTHING, but I am sure it made her day.

 

BUT, we had a similar experience here in Atlanta... A woman was stalled in the left turning lane in a busy intersection. Everyone was honking and yelling stuff, but no one helped. We helped push her across to a gas station. once people saw up pushing, they helped, but not until then.

 

So, from my view I think the US is becoming more of a watching bystander culture.

[rogerluli]

A lot of interesting replies. I'll just add that it surprises me to no end that people go to China and then cannot believe it is not just like where they came from... I believe that "when in Rome... and NOBODY gets on the elevator before ME...

[IllinoisDave]

I guess I'm having a small problem with US calling THEM "uncivil." Who are we to say that their behavior is uncivil? It may be considered uncivil when measured against OUR standards of civility. But those are OUR standards no?

 

When I was in China I saw all the things mentioned here,the bus lines (or lack thereof),the subway pushing, elevator jumping etc. I never once saw harsh words spoken or angry pushing and shoving in retaliation. Not even so much as a sideways glance, except the ones I was dealing out.

 

And no one has even mentioned the driving yet. Everywhere we went there were people cutting each other off, passing on the right,not signalling etc. etc. etc. Guess how many dirty looks or fists waved or middle fingers flashed I saw in all that driving? Zero. Think about all those things happening here and then think about the reactions and ask yourself who's uncivil.

 

It works for THEM in THEIR society and culture. Whatever the reasons are for it, be it the sheer number of people or the history of having to get there first or wait forever, they're used to it. It doesn't really seem to bother THEM all that much. Why should it bother US enough to call them uncivil?

Edited September 25, 2007 by IllinoisDave (see edit history)

[Joshua + Wang Zhuo]

I guess I'm having a small problem with US calling THEM "uncivil." Who are we to say that their behavior is uncivil? It may be considered uncivil when measured against OUR standards of civility. But those are OUR standards no?

 

When I was in China I saw all the things mentioned here,the bus lines (or lack thereof),the subway pushing, elevator jumping etc. I never once saw harsh words spoken or angry pushing and shoving in retaliation. Not even so much as a sideways glance, except the ones I was dealing out.

 

And no one has even mentioned the driving yet. Everywhere we went there were people cutting each other off, passing on the right,not signalling etc. etc. etc. Guess how many dirty looks or fists waved or middle fingers flashed I saw in all that driving? Zero. Think about all those things happening here and then think about the reactions and ask yourself who's uncivil.

 

It works for THEM in THEIR society and culture. Whatever the reasons are for it, be it the sheer number of people or the history of having to get there first or wait forever, they're used to it. It doesn't really seem to bother THEM all that much. Why should it bother US enough to call them uncivil?

 

 

I would have to say I totally agree with this statement.

 

Joshua