Chinese Civility?

[I love Sunshine]

My SO passed along a disturbing piece of news from Shanghai which happened earlier this month.

 

On Sept 6 in Shanghai, an American pedestrian was involved in a hit-and-run with a car. Many people were around and witnessed this accident.

 

Despite him needing medical attention, nobody offered to help or even call the police. In fact, many took photos of him lying in the street while in agony. He tried to flag down a taxi, but no taxis would take him either.

 

Finally, one girl got a taxi and stopped near him, and took the boy to the hospital. Others scoffed at this girl, and said she must have been Japanese or Korean, since no Chinese person would do this!

 

This follows a recent well-publicized case in Nanjing earlier this year where an elderly lady fell when exiting a bus. A young man went to help her to the hospital. When he got there, her family accused him of pushing her off the bus, and this case went to court. The man lost his job fighting the case, and ended up having to pay 40,000 rmb fine to the woman's family. So many Chinese think "why should I help a stranger and suffer a similar fate?" So sad.

 

Now a few personal anecdotes: Last March in Beijing, I saw an elderly man climbing the subway steps and he took a tumble. Just as most of you would, my natural reaction was to go and help him. Others were much closer, but to them it was like watching entertaining TV: no one offered to help him. I was the first to assist him and when I saw he was okay, I continued on my way. My secretary, who was with me at the time but didn't move closer later asked me "did you really want to help him or just get a better look?"

 

Yesterday when driving back through Wyoming, I ran out of gas. My fault! I was late for a flight, and called some towing services who wanted a minimum of $150 to bring a gallon of gas to me on this back road as it was quite some distance from any town. The next driver to pass me, a good Samaritan, stopped and offered a ride to town (30 miles), waited for me to get a gas can, and drove me back to my car. I offered him some money but he only said "I only hope that if I was in your situation, someone would help me too". Even in the wilds of Wyoming, we can find civility.

 

I believe that Chinese people are generally extremely hospitable to others if there is some benefit to them, such as a romantic interest, friendship, or business relationship, but if you are a stranger to them, Chinese society is extremely cold and selfish. For those of you who have had limited exposure to China, all in the presence of your SO, please be grateful to them for shielding you from this.

 

For all the negative things that get said by others around the world about Americans, one thing I can genuinely say is that our culture does a decent job of looking out for those in trouble than many other cultures do.

 

Any others have thoughts about this?

Edited September 24, 2007 by I love Sunshine (see edit history)

[IllinoisDave]

 

I believe that Chinese people are generally extremely hospitable to others if there is some benefit to them, such as a romantic interest, friendship, or business relationship, but if you are a stranger to them, Chinese society is extremely cold and selfish.

 

 

For all the negative things that get said by others around the world about Americans, one thing I can genuinely say is that our culture does a decent job of looking out for those in trouble than many other cultures do.

 

 

 

While the incidents in China you cite are certainly disturbing, I don't think it necessarily follows that Chinese society is "extremely cold and selfish." I don't know if you meant that to be such a broad generalization. If so, I would have to disagree.

 

As for the job our culture does in looking out for those in trouble? I agree that we may do a better job than others, but I'm not so sure that bar is all that high.

 

It's obviously a slippery slope to pick isolated incidents in any culture and use them to paint a true picture of that entire culture. And I'm not saying that you're trying to do that.

 

I guess I'm just saying that for every sad act of human indifference we can find in China, we can probably find a thousand more of human kindness. And for every good samaritan we can find here in the US, we can probably find a thousand people who pass by without a second glance.

 

Someone else could probably switch the names of the two countries in my example and make a valid point as well. In the end, I think it's just very difficult to compare two such diverse cultures when it comes to something like their relative compassion.

[Jeikun]

That's the problem with anecdotal evidence, no matter how many of us have 5 or 6 stories, it's not enough for any kind of proof or clinically unbiased statistical analysis. But from my experience as well as Jun's I believe I love Sunshine is very close to the truth here.

[Dennis143]

Anecdotal or not, Chinese whom I have had many discussion about this agree - Chinese won't help anyone unless there's something in it for them. You can blame Mao for it too. The byproduct of years of famine and having to fend for yourself created guan xi - relationships and connection - if I scratch your back, you'll scratch mine or what's in it for me, if I help you? This is an admitted cultural difference between very generous western societies and guan xi China.

 

The same reason that you won't see a Chinese smile and nod to you when passing on the street...what's in it for them? And, if you nod and smile...what do you want?

 

If you're not family or don't have some guan xi connection, there's no interest in their getting involved to help.

 

No, it's not China bashing either to point out these differences.

[Shenzhen K-1]

Good topic, and I have seen both sides to it!!!

 

1. Was in a very remote eatery in Shenzhen, could not find the wash room and just ate ribs. The owner brought me out a bowl of warm water and a towel!!

 

2. Waiting in line at the bank, get moving or you wll be walked over as a slow poke.

 

3. SO driivng down a one way street, of course the wrong way. People just moved over and let her be and said little and did not flip her off!

 

4. Watch poor people begging, just like here no one wants to help. My SO gave this poor lady a "10" told me much about her right then.

 

5. I saw a girl riding a moped I call it and slipped down, they just honked for her to move, no one helped. I was in the bus behind her.

 

6. While on a bus from Chengdu, they pulled over and waited for me to get rid of my Chinese food. More details in an earlier post if you are interested.

[Dennis143]

It is not my job to change the world, and it is not my intention to make every small thing an issue in an effort to change Ping's behavior. We do talk about things, however, in a non-confrontational manner. It helps that she recognizes that there are things that she should learn if she wants to fit in with another culture. She wants to learn, and has asked me to help her. I hope I am a worthy teacher.

Good morning CHINA!!

 

Habits will change, after they live here. They learn to conform to what is accepted and what isn't. When it's every man for himself and dog eat dog, you got to do what you got to do. When living here, that fight for survival instinct will fade.

[Joshua + Wang Zhuo]

I did notice the lack of concern for others welfare when I was in China. Even my Anna shocked me a few times as she pushed through the crowds so that we could pay. Lines at the checkout? Haha, forget about it......

 

To say that people there need a lesson in civility though is a statement I cannot agree with. Maybe it would be better if it was "I think people need a lesson in civility." Our culture is different than theirs and to judge the way people there(or anywhere for that matter) behave. Just because we are American does not make us right and it does not give us the authority to pass judgment on people from other cultures.

 

I loved visiting in China and I cannot wait to go back. The aforementioned behaviors are one reason I think I will always come back to the states though .

 

Joshua

[SirLancelot]

 

I believe that Chinese people are generally extremely hospitable to others if there is some benefit to them, such as a romantic interest, friendship, or business relationship, but if you are a stranger to them, Chinese society is extremely cold and selfish.

 

 

For all the negative things that get said by others around the world about Americans, one thing I can genuinely say is that our culture does a decent job of looking out for those in trouble than many other cultures do.

 

 

 

While the incidents in China you cite are certainly disturbing, I don't think it necessarily follows that Chinese society is "extremely cold and selfish." I don't know if you meant that to be such a broad generalization. If so, I would have to disagree.

 

As for the job our culture does in looking out for those in trouble? I agree that we may do a better job than others, but I'm not so sure that bar is all that high.

 

It's obviously a slippery slope to pick isolated incidents in any culture and use them to paint a true picture of that entire culture. And I'm not saying that you're trying to do that.

 

I guess I'm just saying that for every sad act of human indifference we can find in China, we can probably find a thousand more of human kindness. And for every good samaritan we can find here in the US, we can probably find a thousand people who pass by without a second glance.

 

Someone else could probably switch the names of the two countries in my example and make a valid point as well. In the end, I think it's just very difficult to compare two such diverse cultures when it comes to something like their relative compassion.

 

Gotta back up Dave on this. For every one anecdote ILS writes, I can write 100 counter examples of local Chinese being extra generous to laoweis when visiting China.

 

It's 100% accepted by all mainlander Chinese that Chinese people treat laoweis--especially white laowies--exceptionally well when they visit China. They are apt to help laoweis much more so than their own compatriots, simply because Chinese people don't want to portray themselves as rude people to foreigners.

 

It's extremely rare to hear cases such as the situation that ILS posted. It's much more common to see and read about situations where random passerbys help a laowei who is lost or in need of assistance when in China.

 

But I do agree that Chinese people are not very friendly towards their fellow compatriots. The culture is such that one is very kind to ones own friends and family/relatives, but not very courteous to strangers. Certainly Mao did play a part in this but even before Mao there was this "clannish" attitude.

[IllinoisDave]

To say that people there need a lesson in civility though is a statement I cannot agree with. Maybe it would be better if it was "I think people need a lesson in civility." Our culture is different than theirs and to judge the way people there(or anywhere for that matter) behave. Just because we are American does not make us right and it does not give us the authority to pass judgment on people from other cultures.

This says what I was trying to say much better than I said it.

 

I didn't mean to imply that anyone was China-bashing at all. I certainly know far less about China than many who've posted here so I respectfully defer to them on matters of apathy in China.

 

My point should have been closer to what Joshua said, that people in other cultures have reasons for acting a certain way just as we do. We just shouldn't expect them to change to meet our own standards.

[warpedbored]

I think there is a cultural difference here. Chinese in my limited experience are not much concerned with anyone that is not friend or family. Interestingly enough though it seems to change once they are here. In Chinatown SF I saw an old lady fall down on the sidewalk. Even though I was first to reach her (I was closest) Several Chinese people were right there to help as well. I think there may be some merit to the Mao theory. In a country with the population of China and the cultural revolution being recent history one could certainly reach a conclusion that human life is or was cheap in China.

[SirLancelot]

My SO passed along a disturbing piece of news from Shanghai which happened earlier this month.

 

 

Here's a disturbing piece of news that transpired a couple of years ago:

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati..._niagara30.html

 

http://zonaeuropa.com/20040729_11.jpg http://zonaeuropa.com/20040729_12.jpg http://zonaeuropa.com/20040729_13.jpg http://zonaeuropa.com/20040729_7.jpg

The graphic front-page photo has played to the worst fears of this provincial river port city ¡ª showing a local businesswoman's face beaten black and blue and her eyes swollen shut.

 

The victim is a Chinese tourist who recently was attacked during an outing to Niagara Falls, on the U.S.-Canadian border. But the suspect isn't any violent criminal or quick-hit mugger. The man who allegedly punched Zhao Yan repeatedly and doused her with pepper spray was an inspector with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

 

Officer Robert Rhodes is accused of throwing the 37-year-old gym-equipment saleswoman against a wall, kneeing her in the head and striking her head on the ground. Rhodes, 43, was charged with violating her civil rights and faces 10 years in prison if convicted. He said he thought Zhao was with a man from whom officers had just confiscated marijuana.

 

Given this "anecdotal" evidence, these words below seem ironic, don't they?

 

For all the negative things that get said by others around the world about Americans, one thing I can genuinely say is that our culture does a decent job of looking out for those in trouble than many other cultures do.

 

Clearly Zhao Yan doesn't think so.

 

Imagine if this is what awaits your SO as she arrives at her POE into the US.

Edited September 25, 2007 by SirLancelot (see edit history)

[Jeikun]

My SO passed along a disturbing piece of news from Shanghai which happened earlier this month.

 

 

Here's a disturbing piece of news that transpired a couple of years ago:

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati..._niagara30.html

 

http://zonaeuropa.com/20040729_11.jpg http://zonaeuropa.com/20040729_12.jpg http://zonaeuropa.com/20040729_13.jpg http://zonaeuropa.com/20040729_7.jpg

The graphic front-page photo has played to the worst fears of this provincial river port city ¡ª showing a local businesswoman's face beaten black and blue and her eyes swollen shut.

 

The victim is a Chinese tourist who recently was attacked during an outing to Niagara Falls, on the U.S.-Canadian border. But the suspect isn't any violent criminal or quick-hit mugger. The man who allegedly punched Zhao Yan repeatedly and doused her with pepper spray was an inspector with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

 

Officer Robert Rhodes is accused of throwing the 37-year-old gym-equipment saleswoman against a wall, kneeing her in the head and striking her head on the ground. Rhodes, 43, was charged with violating her civil rights and faces 10 years in prison if convicted. He said he thought Zhao was with a man from whom officers had just confiscated marijuana.

 

Given this "anecdotal" evidence, these words below seem ironic, don't they?

 

For all the negative things that get said by others around the world about Americans, one thing I can genuinely say is that our culture does a decent job of looking out for those in trouble than many other cultures do.

 

Clearly Zhao Yan doesn't think so.

 

Imagine if this is what awaits your SO as she arrives at her POE into the US.

 

 

And the same thing happened to him that happens to any US civil servant who abuses his power like that (provided the system works)... he was fired, charged, and (I think) had his ass sued.

 

I see no irony in the quote. Is that an American lawyer posing with her? Was justice done? She was a victim of a criminal act, and the perpetrator was punished under the law. She received medical treatment and compensation.

 

If this had happened to a Chinese woman in China no one would have given a shit, and no one would have had to pay the price. My wife watched a cop beat the hell out of an old lady on the street for trying to sell drinks out of a cooler. No one batted an eye. This happens dozens of times a day.

 

I get what you are trying to say here, Lance... but the sensationalism of the post and the slant you are putting on it (not talking about criminal acts, we are talking about people helping those in trouble) deserves to be called out a bit.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[Joanne]

The cited story is a rear case, this is why it appeard on a newspaper. It is shocking!

 

I am rude in my husband's eyes. I pushed him aside when I needed to use the sink in mid of cooking. I take big bites at meals, so that I can get this piece of business done quicker.... I don't push other people in public (I consider it rude), but I tend to ignore others. (It is like when one people is talking you listen, when ten people are talking you treat them as noise.)

 

On the other hand, I don't see much rudeness in him. If there is a difference in manners, I try to understand his.

 

I gave a lot of money (comparatively) in NYC to peoples who "beg" through performances even if I didn't actually enjoy the "performance". I don't usually gave money to beggers in China lately, because there are too many professional beggers (the kind who generate a handsome income through begging), I could not tell the difference anymore, but I bought much more tissue papers than I needed from a handicapped person who sold them on subway trains.

 

In a stablized society like US, you got the teaching from bibles, from the older generations, people's manners and reaction to situations are much more predictible, "civil".

 

In a changing society like China, we got to make judgement at almost all individual cases and act accordingly. The judgements are based on what you see and what you learn of related or similar cases at that particular time period.

 

China now is very much different from 30 years ago. I don't know if we should blame Mao and cultural revolution, since when in mid of cultural revolution, my experience was much better. Cities are also very different.

 

Sorry, my comments are too scattered. I really have no idea how to comment directly on the OP's opinion.

[amberjack1234]

I have been treated exceptionally well the times that I have been to China and so well in fact that I like many others here fell in love with China. I am sure that what Lance is spot on as my wife tells me that they are encouraged to treat foreigners with the greatest of respect. On my second trip to China I ask her why people in China was so nice that America could learn a thing or two from China. Her response was it's all about the money and their reputation abroad which equates to money. She also tells me after relating the OP to her that it is typical for Chinese people to react to Chinese people in this terrible was out of fear that if they get involved it will be charged with something and it will cost them something like it cost the man 40,000 rmb. She tells me about similar stories all the time from the Chinese internet programs that she visits. These are her opinions not my perceptions after all she lived there all of her life. Lance know quite a bit about these issues as he lived there.

 

Another similar story is that a woman came to the hospital She and her child had been in an accident and needed blood. the family offered their blood as the hospital was out of the type of blood that they needed. The hospital refused and ordered blood from a centralized blood bank. There was quite a delay in getting the blood there due to traffic. The result was both mother and child died. Explanation: The hospital would not accept the blood from the family as they would not have made any money on that but would have made a lot of money by selling them blood. It all about the money.

 

Another example of lack of empathy. Mother has a premature baby and it needed to go into an incubator. The parents did not have the money so the baby was left to die in a few hours.

 

My wife's first cousin found out that he had cancer about 3 months ago but the hospital would not treat him until they were given all of the money first.

 

I could tell you many many more stories about these incidents but you ask your SO about these things.

 

Larry

[SirLancelot]

 

 

And the same thing happened to him that happens to any US civil servant who abuses his power like that (provided the system works)... he was fired, charged, and (I think) had his ass sued.

 

I see no irony in the quote. Is that an American lawyer posing with her? Was justice done? She was a victim of a criminal act, and the perpetrator was punished under the law. She received medical treatment and compensation.

 

If this had happened to a Chinese woman in China no one would have given a shit, and no one would have had to pay the price. My wife watched a cop beat the hell out of an old lady on the street for trying to sell drinks out of a cooler. No one batted an eye. This happens dozens of times a day.

 

I get what you are trying to say here, Lance... but the sensationalism of the post and the slant you are putting on it (not talking about criminal acts, we are talking about people helping those in trouble) deserves to be called out a bit.

 

Jeukin, if ILS used an example of a Chinese person being stricken over by a car and left to die, I wouldn't have said much as I agree with your position and ILS regarding the Chinese apathy towards another Chinese in distress.

 

But ILS used an example of an American being hit and left to die on the road. That is so unheard of. It's completely isolated and anecdotal. It goes contrary to everything I've witnessed in China while living there--especially since this supposedly took place in Shanghai, where there are tons of Americans living and working there.

 

The sad and pathetic truth is that a Chinese person in China is much more apt to help a laowei in distress than a fellow Chinese citizen in distress. And this is completely taken for granted by laoweis because most laoweis don't even realize they've been accorded special treatment. The special treatment they receive is still viewed by many laoweis as uncivilized and rude.

 

That's pure irony.

 

As for sensationalism, I'd say the way the story is told in the original post is pretty sensational. I'd actually like to read an actual journalistic account of this story. Any links would be appreciated, whether in Chinese or English.

Edited September 25, 2007 by SirLancelot (see edit history)